History Headscratchers / MobileSuitZetaGundam

* The theater scene at the end of the series raises an important question: Everybody left their mobile suits to have this conversation, but is there an explanation for why Kamille never just took out the Qubeley or the The-O before he went inside? Would've saved everybody some grief.

*** Maybe Scirocco is the kind of person that Camille would have grown into, had he stayed in the colonies and followed a military career?

** Scirocco exhibits a lot of the same behaviors Camille does, just on a higher-functioning scale - they're both much more interested in machines than people and have poor interpersonal skills. In Camille's case, this is because he facilitates wildly between moods. In Scirocco's case, he seems unable to relate to anyone except insofar in their use to him. I always saw Scirocco as a foil for Camille, an older, more jaded reflection of the hero with his innate intelligence amplified into bonafide genius but lacking any trace of Camille's compassion.

*** Actually, it's because Anaheim Electronics builds most of the mobile suits for the Earth Federation, Titans, and AEUG. After the One Year War, Anaheim bought out all three of Zeon's MS manufacturing companies, Zeonic (built the Zaku, Gouf, and Gelgoog), Zimmad (built the Dom), and MIP (built almost all of Zeon's mobile armors and the Z'Gok). Because of this, a large portion of Anaheim's staff are Zeon designers, which is why many of the mobile suits on both sides, like the Hizack and Marasai on the Titans, and the Rick Dias and Dijeh for AEUG/Karaba, all have monoeyes and other Zeonic characteristics in their designs. Just about any MS that doesn't have Zeonic looks is either is a GM (which even the new GM II is obsolete at the beginning of the Gryps Conflict), based on the GM (like the Nemos the AEUG uses for a grunt suit), or a Gundam.

** Some of the Zeon MS designers joined up with the Titans.

* Why does Mirai seem like such a apolitical plebe? There's no way somebody born into one of the most powerful families in such a rigidly class-stratified society could just leave the circles of power behind short of plastic surgery and a name change. Making her into an ordinary military wife seems like pure fanservice--it certainly doesn't help the story any, seeing as her father was a martyr for the cause of colonial rights it would have made sense for Mirai to have been the one to tip Bright (who never came across as particularly political himself in MSG) over to the side of the AEUG rebellion.

**** Basque made it extremely clear that any visible opposition on [[spoiler: Reccoa]]'s part would put her in front of a firing squad. Her sotto voice remarks afterward not making any sense was kind of the point, really.

* Scirocco being ambiguously autistic? I can kind of see it for Kamille but I'm curious what possible signs Scirocco has. Not arguing at all just curious.

* Why was Jerid killed off so quickly? I kind of saw him as Kamille's foil; he also lost many loved ones and gained more and more badass levels. His ambitious yet foolish hope to rule the Titans is slowly twisted into "kill Kamille." Why, then, was he killed off in such a simple manner? He gets caught in an explosion, says "Kamille, if it weren't for you...", and dies. Even Katz got a more loving send-off then he did!
** Jerid was a foil to Kamille, but by the end of the series he was nowhere near his level and [[SlidingScaleOfVillainThreat compared to other antagonists]] like Scirocco, Haman & Yazan he was small-time. Also, Tomino tends to kill off lots of characters in undramatic ways, underscoring the chaotic view of war that he has...and really, Jerid was never all that BadAss. He had ceased being a threat to Kamille by the time they got to Jaburo.

** In that episode that pose is from, he & Quattro wear Titans uniforms to sneak around the Kilimanjaro base.

* I like the new main page picture but why is Kamille in a Titan's uniform?

*** Obviously, but the original point was that [[spoiler: Reccoa]] did go through with it and never made any attempts to actually stop it. To make it worse her dialog afterwards seems to suggest anger at [[spoiler: the AEUG]] for not stopping it rather than any feelings of great guilt for committing a war crime.

** I got the impression watching that particular episode that [[spoiler: Reccoa]] was hoping that [[spoiler: AEUG]] would come and get her off the hook before she actually had to do it. They obviously didn't.

* [[spoiler: Reccoa's]] FaceHeelTurn. Even if we do assume that [[spoiler: Paptimus]] used Newtype powers to induce this how the hell does that explain choosing to ''gas a colony''? Wasn't that something [[spoiler: she showed explicit horror at earlier]]?

* [[spoiler: Reccoa's]] FaceHeelTurn. Even if we do assume that [[spoiler: Paptimus]] used NewType powers to induce this how the hell does that explain choosing to ''gas a colony''?

Okay why can't I find any reference to Paptimus being a female supremacist of sorts online? Or does he only say he wants a woman to rule the Earth Sphere in the ''DynastyWarriors: Gundam'' games?
* He says it in the series. Multiple times. I can't remember what episode, but I think it first happened in a conversation with Jerid where he accused Paptimus of wanting to rule the world, and instead he said his ruler would be a woman. He also says it to about every woman he picks up.

** Jerid was a foil to Kamille, but by the end of the series he was nowhere near his level and [[SlidingScaleOfVillainThreat compared to other antagonists]] like Scirocco, Haman & Yazan he was small-time. Also, Tomino tends to kill off lots of characters in undramatic ways, underscoring the chaotic view of war that he has...and really, Jerid was never all that BadAss. He had ceased being a threat to Kamille by the time they got to Jaburo.

* Lynceus: I was always bugged by the prevalence of Reccoa-hate. Okay so she jumps ships and is shown to be a very selfish person. ''Welcome to Gundam!'' What I don't get is why people jump to the conclusion that the entirety of her reason for leaving is Char not returning her affections. Selfish or no, there's a lot of stuff to suggest that she isn't happy with her life as a member of the AEUG--she admits to being an adrenaline junkie who only feels alive when putting herself in danger, and the AEUG had been keeping her off of the front lines more at that point. I mean, the whole thing with her deciding to get rid of all the plants in her room seemed like a major indication that she was depressed over something. Yeah that's not a good reason to swap sides and fight against her former teammates, but if you hate selfish characters, again, you're not going to do so hot finding people to like in Tomino works. And it's not like Yazan didn't basically kidnap her, and ''then'' she decided to join the Titans. I'm not saying that she's supposed to be completely likable, but I find her to be in the category of characters who are enjoyable for their flaws, not a "wallbanger." I mean, hell, if you're gonna talk Zeta wallbangers, "There's such a thing as being too much of a woman" is a lot worse.
** She gassed an entire colony of innocent civilians for no reason other than to prove her loyalty to the Titans, which was completely unnecessary because she was loyal to Scirocco only and he was going to make his move sooner-or-later. Also she tries to portray herself as a feminist independent woman when she is very obviously the lackey of a user of women. The less-preferred one, no less.
*** Lynceus: Uh, I think it ''was'' necessary for her to prove her allegiance, because she was being ordered to do so by Bask Om, generally portrayed as the kind of guy who flushes people who don't seem loyal enough out of airlocks. In fact, doesn't her joining with a guy who's planning on eventually backstabbing the Titans mean that she ''especially'' needs to prove her loyalty so she doesn't screw things up for ''him''? Obviously I'm not defending genocide in the name of covering up political machinations, but it's not like she volunteered to go on the mission, and it's not like she wasn't vocally ''hoping'' for Kamille to show up and stop her. Besides which I don't think she personally did any gassing, though I could be mistaken on that. And as far as her claiming to be an independent woman goes... I don't think that was ever a defining character trait of hers, just that she liked an exciting lifestyle and didn't want to be tied down. And she obviously realizes at the end that she's been used by Scirocco, hence her whole "perhaps women are fated to be used by men" thing. Point being... I tend to see her as a character who is too lost in life to really know what she's after, and in her attempts to get what she -thinks- she wants, fails miserably, digging herself in deeper. In her effort to escape a life where she felt unappreciated and useless, she joins Scirocco, who makes her feel useful and valued, but she ultimately realizes that he's doing so to manipulate her. I can understand not liking her because it still all comes down to her being really selfish, but I don't get the attitude that as a ''character'' she's worthless.
*** Short version: because she's a ''[[WhatAnIdiot stupid]]'' hypocrite. She also seems to mildly acknowledge how foolish her motives and deeds are, which just makes it even worse.
**** Lynceus: So realizing that you're stuck in a self-destructive set of behaviors makes you completely unlikeable? I'm just saying, I don't think she has a damn clue ''what'' she wants, and the fact that she does drastic, stupid stuff in an effort to figure it out, and ultimately only makes things worse gives her an interesting, somewhat literary quality. Even allowing that she makes dumb decisions and is hypocritical, lord knows that's a pattern of human behavior that you see in real life. I still don't understand why people jump on the most simplistic, idiotic interpretation of her motives and then bitch about it as if the series doesn't support any other takes on her character, ones that don't involve her being brainwashed or just a "woman scorned" by Char. I mean, if a character's entire personality/motivation seems ''that'' stupid to you, don't you ever think there's a chance you might be overlooking something that might fit better?
***** She realises she has problems. She does nothing to try and fix said problems, in fact she just goes on to willingly make her situation worse as you have acknowledged. Even she's aware that serving Scirocco is bad a move because he is a user of women and clearly doesn't care for her the way he does for Sarah. In short, she is a terrible person with a character hated for being just that.
****** The same can be said for a majority of people in RealLife. I think the point here is that, regardless of the flaw in her motives, Reccoa's motives were human and therefore understandable. She wasn't motivated by some nebulous lust for power or maliciousness. She just wanted the same thing most everybody wants... and gets a large amount of hate by fans, which usually says more about the fans in question than the character herself.
******* Her motivations were inherently contradictory, she was aware of the hypocrisy and yet did nothing to even try and change it.
******** Personally, I'm ambivalent towards Reccoa - at ''best''. But regardless of how I feel about her, I haven't walked in her (fictional) shoes. Therefore, I have no right to judge.
********* Lynceus: I do agree with the troper who more or less came to my defense, on most points anyway--specifically that I find Reccoa's motivations realistic and therefore understandable, even sympathetic (in the way that the traditional tragic character who fails because of some fault of their own is sympathetic). I'm not a Reccoa fanboy, particularly, but I like her character because of that--because she's deeply flawed, but in a way that the viewer can relate to, and this ultimately gets her killed. I also like that she's such an effective parallel to Emma, who puts her morals ahead of any personal desires she might have--the exact opposite of Reccoa--which makes for an interesting confrontation between them. My main point here, is that I find ''most'' of Tomino's more detailed characters are people who it is possible to sympathize with if you make the effort to get inside their heads, even if their actions seem evil or hypocritical. Is that not the ''main theme'' of (this part of) Gundam as a franchise? Anyway, maybe it was dumb of me to start an argument in a "This Just Bugs Me" page, but I do think both sides are getting a little out of hand here. The main page has been rectified to "Alternative Character Interpretation" which was really what was bugging me when I first posted about it (specifically that the entry had implied that she joins with Scirocco ''just'' because Char rejects her). In the absence of anything else productive to say, maybe we should let this die. I know this is a place to complain but sniping is a quick and easy way to destroy the laid back atmosphere around here.
** For ThisTroper, Reccoa, while she wasn’t good person, she wasn’t bad character because she reached a logical conclusion, at last according to Zeta’s [[AnAesop Aesop]] (selfishness and enjoying wars is evil). She was pretty much a nicer version of Yazan (the reason why they both were sensing each others during her capture). Like Yazan, Reccoa didn’t care about ideology, she was just for adrenaline rush. The “nicer” part is that Reccoa doesn’t have so much fun in killing people as Yazan, and she wasn’t happy about killing her former comrades, but it doesn’t change that on Argama she was the one who enjoyed fights more than anybody. The reason why she decided to be loyal for Scirocco after she was captured was because at this time it was better to bet on Scriocco, whose track of record was full of successes, than AEUG without their leader and Char, who in previous episode almost caused a death of them all and turned Axis against them.
* Why do a vast majority of Gundam consider this series to be the high point of the Gundam frachise?
** Because [[TrueArtIsAngsty True Art Is Wangsty]].
** For me, it's because it has better animation and more rounded characters than first Gundam. It's like they were given a bigger budget and carte blanche to do what they wanted, and made what they would have made in the first place. The world of Gundam was a little more fleshed out, we saw the lunar colonies, found out that there were colonies on Jupiter (that was a shock), and we found out more about Newtypes. First Gundam's storytelling was a little wonky (newtypes were the most important concept but weren't introduced till the last few episodes, we have no idea who the Zabis are until 15 episodes in, Char's ridiculously complicated backstory is not effectively explained) but Zeta Gundam was a lot more straightforward, even if it had a frustratingly open-ended conclusion.
** For me, it's mostly in space itself rather than on Earth or in colonies so seeing that calming black background sets up the atmosphere nicely. Also, it's military strategy's supreme truths: better leadership and better soldiers win(if I remember correctly the AEUG lost half of its pilots in one day at the Kennedy Space Station and as the rest returned to space Char said "We have enough to fight on", sure Char was on the outnumbered side in the One Year War but half of your pilots in one day?), not superior numbers. It also helps that it isn't a ripoff of World War II. A 3 way fight is a nice break from the usual 1 on 1 war aswell. In contrast to the selfish and downright cruel Zeon leaders (your mileage may vary, of course) I find Scirocco to be a nice mix of cool and smart and Haman Kahn is a charachter I like in spite of being about the most biased Gundam fan of all. I found the supporting cast to be better than 0079 too. My second favourite Gundam show is Zeta and in fact I consider it to literally be a masterpiece.
*** While most of what the above poster wrote is correct, it could be seen from the other end. The Titan leaders besides Scirocco are all {{Complete Monster}}s, and Scirocco's ManipulativeBastard skills aren't enough to make him sympathetic. On the other hand, in the original MS Gundam, the only truly evil Zeonic leaders are Gihren Zabi, M'Quve, and possibly Csyllia Zabi. That said, Zeta is far more deep than MS Gundam, the AEUG and its highly bizarre makeup and loose hierarchy make for very unusual protagonists (Mr. Wong is a horrifying political leader for someone supposed to be ''good''), and the three-way interface between the AEUG, Titans, and Axis Zeon makes for great political drama. The way Scirocco had no problem kneeling before Mineva Zabi while Char balked at the prospect nearly lost the war for the AEUG before Char swallowed his pride. The psychological drama surrounding Kamille is also interesting, as both Four and Rosamia get close to him and reveal the problem with Psycho-Newtypes: WithGreatPowerComesGreatInsanity.
**** YourMilageMayVary but Kycilia and M'Quve's characters are rather debatable whether they qualify as "evil". Kycilia has been shown not only in the TV Show MSG, but also in the UC game Gihren's Greed to care deeply for her family (notably her younger brother Garma and her father Degwin). She is also genuinely upset over her father's passing, thinking of Gihren's actions concerning killing their father as monstrous. Her motive to assassinate Gihren was definitely to avenge Degwin and not one of ambition, as one could observe her horrified thought when Gihren let the cat out of the bag: ''You killed your own father...'' M'Quve as well despite not giving much thought to the Earth Federation did show concern for the well being of his own men. An example in the TV Show would be when Odessa was under attack he asked Kycilia if there would be enough time for his men to escape. Gihren, however, is no question a CompleteMonster or at least ''very'' close to becoming one. In the TV Show despite specifically ordering a messenger to warn Kycilia about the Solar Ray which spared her from Degwin’s fate, his motives and behavior after she joins him at A Boa Qu are rather...''questionable''... Concerning Scirocco from Zeta, he tends to follow the guideline of UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans, which can lead to YourMilageMayVary whether this type of villain is entertaining and a breath of fresh air or a poor attempt to make a monstrous man complex.
***** M'Quve blatantly violates the Antarctic Treaty by using a nuclear weapon and gleefully indulges in committing said war atrocity. Even though he's incompetent, he's still enough of an unrepentant asshole to qualify as evil.
***** Again, why such a character is debatable. M'Quve's actions, along with other characters in MSG, will lead to YourMilageMayVary for many fans. It was clear that M'Quve meant to use nuclear weapons against the Earth Federation and not his own men. Therefore, since this is war and a very GreyAndGrayMorality series, this action can be a ShootTheDog for some fans while a crossing of the MoralEventHorizon for others.
****** He's still violating the Antarctic Treaty regardless of who his target was. It's a MoralEventHorizon no matter who does it or what the target is, like a ColonyDrop.
****** Also don't forgit that he was supposed to give the new Doms to Ramba Raul, but he didn't because he a) wanted Ramba Raul to be dead or shamed or b) was to selfish to care about solders not working for him directly. I mean Ramba Raul was a war hero of the Zeon Revolution and a personal friend of Zeon Dikune. M'Quve was killing off the old guard.
****** MoralEventHorizon is a very subjective trope that will very in degree for each fan. What you might see as monstrous for violating a treaty, another might see as a necessary battle tactic to gain an advantage over the enemy. And he was clearly aiming at the Federation's troops. As seen previously how he makes an attempt to evacuate his own men from the base at Odessa before Amuro came with his Gundam to do collateral damage. Universal Century is a very [[GreyAndGrayMorality Grey vs. Gray]] series, and therefore has characters with motivations and actions that range from each other. It mimics what happens in war, and how there are even factions within factions that create tension and conflict. This should be noted with the Zabis and the Deikuns. M'Quve is loyal to Kycilia Zabi; Ramba Ral has stated before how he stands with the Deikuns till death. M'Quve not caring what happened to Ramba Ral is a part of war, since Ramba Ral stands with loyalties that conflict with his own. It isn't good or evil. Cold? Yes. But he takes no strenuous effort of his own to seek out vengeance on Ramba Ral. He's simply too preoccupied with his own work to care about one soldier who doesn't have loyalties to his faction in the first place. Now if we were talking about [[DisproportionateRetribution Char]] on the other hand...
******* You are ''literally'' trying to justify the actions of somebody unambiguously presented as a villain. Especially since Ramba Ral was engaging the most important enemy troops in the conflict. And how can you even TRY to paint GLEEFULLY using a nuclear weapon as anything other than a completely monstrous act?
****** Adding to the argument, even if M’Quve crossed the MoralEventHorizon, this alone is not enough to make a CompleteMonster. As quoted from the trope: '''“But a character can cross the MoralEventHorizon without necessarily being a CompleteMonster.”''' And the one incident that’s mentioned often is very, very debatable if it even qualifies as a MoralEventHorizon. Why I mentioned Char above is because Char has even followed through with horrific acts, much more than M’Quve ever could accomplish, and yet even Char is not a CompleteMonster. It’s why we have guideline for what qualifies and what doesn’t. Char has murdered his best friend in cold blood and laughed at it, shot civilians to cover his tracks, manipulated Lalah as in ''Char’s Counterattack'' he mentions he “used her like a machine”, and tried to throw a giant asteroid at Earth which would kill billions. But this isn’t enough to qualify, since Char is [[ThereAreNoTherapists more]] [[AntiVillain horribly]] [[OedipusComplex screwed]] [[FreudianExcuse up]] [[WellIntentionedExtremist than]] [[ManipulativeBastard anything]]. He kills Garma, but feels remorse later for it. He uses Lalah, and the guilt over it weighs on him for 14 years. He starts a war out of a mix of spite for Amuro and [[WellIntentionedExtremist passion for his father’s ideals]]. And he knows what he’s doing is terrible. Simply doing a heinous act isn’t enough; there can be ''no trace'' of redeeming qualities for a CompleteMonster to be a CompleteMonster. The quotes below from the CompleteMonster trope are enough to prove M’Quve doesn’t qualify.
****** '''“Likewise, trying to find a drop of goodness in them is like trying to find a specific grain of sand on every beach in the world, it's impossible.”'''[[CompleteMonster Complete Monsters]] are such for a reason. They are void of any concern for anyone. They do not care who dies at their or someone else’s hand. Stating M’Quve qualifies as one contradicts with even the TV Series. As he is shown at Odessa, when M’Quve shows concern for if his fellow soldiers will be able to escape the base in time when Amuro attacks with his Gundam. If he was a CompleteMonster, he wouldn’t have even had concern.
****** '''"The character's terribleness must be played seriously at all times, evoking fear, revulsion and/or hatred from the other characters in the story. If the character is not taken seriously at all, they fail to qualify."'''It must be noted in the TV Series that Char’s disgust with M’Quve lies with Char feeling M’Quve simply is ''too weak to handle Amuro in battle''. This can be noted in their interactions in Texas Colony. Hence, he and his plans are not taken seriously by other characters. Yes, M’Quve is respected by some of his officers. But certainly not all. And fellow Zeon member Ensign Lalah Sune shouts in protest for Amuro to stop attacking M’Quve. She would not have this reaction if Tomino wanted to portray M’Quve as a CompleteMonster.
******* Lalah is virtually a FriendToAllLivingThings TechnicalPacifist: had she even met M'Quve for long enough to form an opinion on him?
****** '''“Most importantly, the character must have no chance of redemption, at least not without being considered a Karma Houdini. The only way the story could come to anything resembling a happy ending is a Karmic Death.”''' This alone is enough to cross him off the list. His death in the TV Series and in ''Char’s Deleted Affair'' were not treated as celebrations. In the TV Series, Lalah Sune shouts at Amuro Ray in Newtype speak at Texas Colony to not kill M’Quve. That he has “already won”. When Amuro does succeed in killing him, ''no one'' is cheering. In the manga, M’Quve’s death happens as he is escorting Mineva to safety with Char. And it this version, ''Char himself'' shouts in horror when M’Quve dies. M’Quve’s death is to show that WarIsHell. Nothing more. M’Quve is a crossover between a SmugSnake and a PunchClockVillain. There are very few characters that qualify as a CompleteMonster in UC Gundam, simply because UC Gundam is famous for creating characters that lie somewhere in between. It takes more than one heinous act to make a CompleteMonster. In essence, they are sociopaths who feel no concern for anyone in the series. Not their fellow soldiers, not their family. '''No one.''' It’s why they are irredeemable, and it’s why they are [[CompleteMonster Complete Monsters]].
** Another good reason is that it's one of Tomino's Gundam series, but not strictly as DESPAIR-filled as Victory, and it is probably a bit better put together than classic Mobile Suit Gundam. Its main rival would probably be Turn-A, because Turn-A has better animation (if its designs are very polarizing), much more unique in terms of setting (giant robots fighting biplanes? Hell yes!), and much more profound politically, what with its situation where the governments of both sides are striving for peace but are unable to control their populations and various factions that keep rekindling the conflict. However, Turn-A is ''also'' very silly, has only one or two villains who can be taken even remotely seriously (and even the most serious of them still has ridiculous hair), includes a prince and the pauper plot, and for all that it has an episode that deals with what it would be like to work in a field hospital in this world, said episode does have them use the Turn-A to do ''laundry''. Which is surely a metaphor, but also silly. So while the show is really good, it's got a lot of weird elements that may or may not detract from enjoyment of the seires, whereas Zeta is excellent but also consistently dark. Plus, Zeta was what really cemented Gundam as a franchise rather than as a one-off thing, and Zeta is actually available in English legally, although it was considered one of the greatest series by a lot of English-speaking fans even earlier.
** For me, Zeta strikes a nice balance between lightness and darkness. Even I, a fan of KillEmAll, AnyoneCanDie, and DysfunctionJunction thought Victory went a little overboard. Zeta is much better about letting characters develop before killing them off (for the most part). Also, the music is amazing, and the intrigue between Haman, Scirocco, and Qauttro is pretty interesting.

******* That last sentence is chock-full of ad hominem.

******* That last sentence is chock-full of ad hominem.

******* That last sentence is chalked full of ad hominem.

******* You are trying to justify the actions of somebody presented as a villain? Especially since Ramba Ral was engaging the most important enemy troops in the conflict?