History Headscratchers / MobileSuitZetaGundam

****** '''“Most importantly, the character must have no chance of redemption, at least not without being considered a Karma Houdini. The only way the story could come to anything resembling a happy ending is a Karmic Death.”''' This alone is enough to cross him off the list. His death in the TV Series and in ''Char’s Deleted Affair'' were not treated as celebrations. In the TV Series, Lalah Sune shouts at Amuro Ray in Newtype speak at Texas Colony to not kill M’Quve. That he has “already won”. When Amuro does succeed in killing him, ''no one'' is cheering. In the manga, M’Quve’s death happens as he is escorting Mineva to safety with Char. And it this version, ''Char himself'' shouts in horror when M’Quve dies. M’Quve’s death is to show that WarIsHell. Nothing more. M’Quve is a crossover between a SmugSnake and a PunchClockVillain. There are very few characters that qualify as a CompleteMonster in UC Gundam, simply because UC Gundam is famous for creating characters that lie somewhere in between. It takes more than one heinous act to make a CompleteMonster. In essence, they are sociopaths who feel no concern for anyone in the series. Not their fellow soldiers, not their family. '''No one.''' It’s why they are irredeemable, and it’s why they are [[CompleteMonster Complete Monsters]] And the only people who come to mind who fit this trope in all versions of UC Gundam are Gihren Zabi and Jamitov Hymem.

******* You are trying to justify the actions of somebody presented as a villain? Especially since Ramba Ral was engaging the most important enemy troops in the conflict.

******* You are ''literally'' trying to justify the actions of somebody unambiguously presented as a villain. Especially since Ramba Ral was engaging the most important enemy troops in the conflict. And how can you even TRY to paint GLEEFULLY using a nuclear weapon as anything other than a completely monstrous act?

******* Jamitov is a WellIntentionedExtremist. Scirocco, Glemmy, Iron Mask, Zabine & Katejina are CompleteMonster possibilites as well.

******* Jamitov is a WellIntentionedExtremist. Glemmy & Katejina are CompleteMonster possibilites as well.

****** Adding to the argument, even if M’Quve crossed the MoralEventHorizon, this alone is not enough to make a CompleteMonster. As quoted from the trope: '''“But a character can cross the MoralEventHorizon without necessarily being a CompleteMonster.”''' And the one incident that’s mentioned often is very, very debatable if it even qualifies as a MoralEventHorizon. Why I mentioned Char above is because Char has even followed through with horrific acts, much more than M’Quve ever could accomplish, and yet even Char is not a CompleteMonster. It’s why we have guideline for what qualifies and what doesn’t. Char has murdered his best friend in cold blood and laughed at it, shot civilians to cover his tracks, manipulated Lalah as in ''Char’s Counterattack'' he mentions he “used her like a machine”, and tried to throw a giant asteroid at Earth which would kill billions. But this isn’t enough to qualify, since Char is [[ThereAreNoTherapists more]] [[AntiVillain horribly]] [[OedipusComplex screwed]] [[FreudianExcuse up]] [[WellIntentionedExtremist than]] [[ManipulativeBastard anything]]. He kills Garma, but feels remorse later for it. He uses Lalah, and the guilt over it weighs on him for 14 years. He starts a war out of a mix of spite for Amuro and [[WellIntentionedExtremist passion for his father’s ideals]]. And he knows what he’s doing is terrible. Simply doing a heinous act isn’t enough; there can be ''no trace of redeeming qualities for a CompleteMonster to be a CompleteMonster. The quotes below from the CompleteMonster trope are enough to prove M’Quve doesn’t qualify.

****** Adding to the argument, even if M’Quve crossed the MoralEventHorizon, this alone is not enough to make a CompleteMonster. As quoted from the trope: '''“But a character can cross the MoralEventHorizon without necessarily being a CompleteMonster.”''' And the one incident that’s mentioned often is very, very debatable if it even qualifies as a MoralEventHorizon. Why I mentioned Char above is because Char has even followed through with horrific acts, much more than M’Quve ever could accomplish, and yet even Char is not a CompleteMonster. It’s why we have guideline for what qualifies and what doesn’t. Char has murdered his best friend in cold blood and laughed at it, shot civilians to cover his tracks, manipulated Lalah as in ''Char’s Counterattack'' he mentions he “used her like a machine”, and tried to throw a giant asteroid at Earth which would kill billions. But this isn’t enough to qualify, since Char is more messed up than anything. He kills Garma, but feels remorse later for it. He uses Lalah, and the guilt over it weighs on him for 14 years. He starts a war out of a mix of spite for Amuro and [[WellIntentionedExtremist passion for his father’s ideals]]. And he knows what he’s doing is terrible. Simply doing a heinous act isn’t enough; there can be ‘’no trace’’ of redeeming qualities for a CompleteMonster to be a CompleteMonster. The quotes below from the CompleteMonster trope are enough to prove M’Quve doesn’t qualify.

****** # '''“Likewise, trying to find a drop of goodness in them is like trying to find a specific grain of sand on every beach in the world, it's impossible.”'''[[CompleteMonster Complete Monsters]] are such for a reason. They are void of any concern for anyone. They do not care who dies at their or someone else’s hand. Stating M’Quve qualifies as one contradicts with even the TV Series. As he is shown at Odessa, when M’Quve shows concern for if his fellow soldiers will be able to escape the base in time when Amuro attacks with his Gundam. If he was a CompleteMonster, he wouldn’t have even had concern.
****** # '''"The character's terribleness must be played seriously at all times, evoking fear, revulsion and/or hatred from the other characters in the story. If the character is not taken seriously at all, they fail to qualify."'''It must be noted in the TV Series that Char’s disgust with M’Quve lies with Char feeling M’Quve simply is ''too weak to handle Amuro in battle''. This can be noted in their interactions in Texas Colony. Hence, he and his plans are not taken seriously by other characters. Yes, M’Quve is respected by some of his officers. But certainly not all. And fellow Zeon member Ensign Lalah Sune shouts in protest for Amuro to stop attacking M’Quve. She would not have this reaction if Tomino wanted to portray M’Quve as a CompleteMonster.
****** # '''“Most importantly, the character must have no chance of redemption, at least not without being considered a Karma Houdini. The only way the story could come to anything resembling a happy ending is a Karmic Death.”''' This alone is enough to cross him off the list. His death in the TV Series and in ''Char’s Deleted Affair'' were not treated as celebrations. In the TV Series, Lalah Sune shouts at Amuro Ray in Newtype speak at Texas Colony to not kill M’Quve. That he has “already won”. When Amuro does succeed in killing him, ''no one'' is cheering. In the manga, M’Quve’s death happens as he is escorting Mineva to safety with Char. And it this version, ''Char himself'' shouts in horror when M’Quve dies. M’Quve’s death is to show that WarIsHell. Nothing more. M’Quve is a crossover between a SmugSnake and a PunchClockVillain. There are very few characters that qualify as a CompleteMonster in UC Gundam, simply because UC Gundam is famous for creating characters that lie somewhere in between. It takes more than one heinous act to make a CompleteMonster. In essence, they are sociopaths who feel no concern for anyone in the series. Not their fellow soldiers, not their family. '''No one.''' It’s why they are irredeemable, and it’s why they are [[CompleteMonster Complete Monsters]] And the only people who come to mind who fit this trope in all versions of UC Gundam are Gihren Zabi and Jamitov Hymem.

****** Adding to the argument, even if M’Quve crossed the MoralEventHorizon, this alone is not enough to make a CompleteMonster. As quoted from the trope: ‘’’ “But a character can cross the MoralEventHorizon without necessarily being a CompleteMonster.”’’’ And the one incident that’s mentioned often is very, very debatable if it even qualifies as a MoralEventHorizon. Why I mentioned Char above is because Char has even followed through with horrific acts, much more than M’Quve ever could accomplish, and yet even Char is not a CompleteMonster. It’s why we have guideline for what qualifies and what doesn’t. Char has murdered his best friend in cold blood and laughed at it, shot civilians to cover his tracks, manipulated Lalah as in ‘’Char’s Counterattack’’ he mentions he “used her like a machine”, and tried to throw a giant asteroid at Earth which would kill billions. But this isn’t enough to qualify, since Char is more messed up than anything. He kills Garma, but feels remorse later for it. He uses Lalah, and the guilt over it weighs on him for 14 years. He starts a war out of a mix of spite for Amuro and [[WellIntentionedExtremist passion for his father’s ideals]]. And he knows what he’s doing is terrible. Simply doing a heinous act isn’t enough; there can be ‘’no trace’’ of redeeming qualities for a CompleteMonster to be a CompleteMonster. The quotes below from the CompleteMonster trope are enough to prove M’Quve doesn’t qualify.
# '''“Likewise, trying to find a drop of goodness in them is like trying to find a specific grain of sand on every beach in the world, it's impossible.”'''[[CompleteMonster Complete Monsters]] are such for a reason. They are void of any concern for anyone. They do not care who dies at their or someone else’s hand. Stating M’Quve qualifies as one contradicts with even the TV Series. As he is shown at Odessa, when M’Quve shows concern for if his fellow soldiers will be able to escape the base in time when Amuro attacks with his Gundam. If he was a CompleteMonster, he wouldn’t have even had concern.
# '''"The character's terribleness must be played seriously at all times, evoking fear, revulsion and/or hatred from the other characters in the story. If the character is not taken seriously at all, they fail to qualify."'''It must be noted in the TV Series that Char’s disgust with M’Quve lies with Char feeling M’Quve simply is ''too weak to handle Amuro in battle''. This can be noted in their interactions in Texas Colony. Hence, he and his plans are not taken seriously by other characters. Yes, M’Quve is respected by some of his officers. But certainly not all. And fellow Zeon member Ensign Lalah Sune shouts in protest for Amuro to stop attacking M’Quve. She would not have this reaction if Tomino wanted to portray M’Quve as a CompleteMonster.
# '''“Most importantly, the character must have no chance of redemption, at least not without being considered a Karma Houdini. The only way the story could come to anything resembling a happy ending is a Karmic Death.”''' This alone is enough to cross him off the list. His death in the TV Series and in ''Char’s Deleted Affair'' were not treated as celebrations. In the TV Series, Lalah Sune shouts at Amuro Ray in Newtype speak at Texas Colony to not kill M’Quve. That he has “already won”. When Amuro does succeed in killing him, ''no one'' is cheering. In the manga, M’Quve’s death happens as he is escorting Mineva to safety with Char. And it this version, ''Char himself'' shouts in horror when M’Quve dies. M’Quve’s death is to show that WarIsHell. Nothing more. M’Quve is a crossover between a SmugSnake and a PunchClockVillain. There are very few characters that qualify as a CompleteMonster in UC Gundam, simply because UC Gundam is famous for creating characters that lie somewhere in between. It takes more than one heinous act to make a CompleteMonster. In essence, they are sociopaths who feel no concern for anyone in the series. Not their fellow soldiers, not their family. '''No one.''' It’s why they are irredeemable, and it’s why they are [[CompleteMonster Complete Monsters]] And the only people who come to mind who fit this trope in all versions of UC Gundam are Gihren Zabi and Jamitov Hymem.

***** She realises she has problems. She does nothing to try and fix said problems, in fact she just goes on to willingly make her situation worse as you have acknowledged. Even she's aware that serving Scirocco is bad a move because he is a user of women and clearly doesn't care for her the way he does for Sarah. In short, she is a terrible person with a character hated for being just that. What part of this is so hard for you to understand? Maybe you might wanna check your apologist fandom at the door before trying to analyse her character.
****** The same can be said for a majority of people in RealLife. I think the point here is that, regardless of the flaw in her motives, Reccoa's motives were human and therefore understandable. She wasn't motivated by some nebulous lust for power or maliciousness. She just wanted the same thing most everybody wants... and gets a large amount of hate by fans, which usually says more about the fans in question than the character herself. Maybe you might want to check your hatemongering at the door before trying to analyze fictional characters.
******* I like the part where you resort to ad hominem attacks on the fanbase and witless snarky parrotting to try and console yourself. Her motivations were inherently contradictory, she was aware of the hypocrisy and yet did nothing to even try and change it. Go now and continue your fanboy worshipping of TheScrappy unabated. In the future, don't ask questions if you won't like or listen to the answers.
******** Did you have to look 'ad hominem' up on Google before you responded? Personally, I'm ambivalent towards Reccoa - at ''best''. But regardless of how I feel about her, I haven't walked in her (fictional) shoes. Therefore, I have no right to judge. That's a lesson that you never seem to have learned.
********* lol @ bitchy anti-comebacks and sanctimonious posturing. And look, even more ad hominem all up in here!
********* Lynceus: Okay, so apparently I have to start tagging my posts here because this isn't a two-way conversation anymore. I do agree with the troper who more or less came to my defense, on most points anyway--specifically that I find Reccoa's motivations realistic and therefore understandable, even sympathetic (in the way that the traditional tragic character who fails because of some fault of their own is sympathetic). I'm not a Reccoa fanboy, particularly, but I like her character because of that--because she's deeply flawed, but in a way that the viewer can relate to, and this ultimately gets her killed. I also like that she's such an effective parallel to Emma, who puts her morals ahead of any personal desires she might have--the exact opposite of Reccoa--which makes for an interesting confrontation between them. My main point here, is that I find ''most'' of Tomino's more detailed characters are people who it is possible to sympathize with if you make the effort to get inside their heads, even if their actions seem evil or hypocritical. Is that not the ''main theme'' of (this part of) Gundam as a franchise? Anyway, maybe it was dumb of me to start an argument in a "This Just Bugs Me" page, but I do think both sides are getting a little out of hand here. The main page has been rectified to "Alternative Character Interpretation" which was really what was bugging me when I first posted about it (specifically that the entry had implied that she joins with Scirocco ''just'' because Char rejects her). In the absence of anything else productive to say, maybe we should let this die. I know this is a place to complain but sniping is a quick and easy way to destroy the laid back atmosphere around here.

******* You are ''literally'' trying to justify the actions of somebody unambiguously presented as a villain. Especially since Ramba Ral was engaging the most important enemy troops in the conflict. [[WhatAnIdiot And how can you even TRY to paint GLEEFULLY using a nuclear weapon as anything other than a completely monstrous act?]]

** Jerid was a foil to Kamille, but by the end of the series he was nowhere near his level and [[SlidingScaleOfVillainThreat compared to other antagonists]] like Scirocco, Haman & Yazan he was small-time. Also, Tomino tends to kill off lots of characters in undramatic ways, underscoring the chaotic view of war that he has...and really, Jerid was never all that BadAss. He had ceased being a threat to Kamille by the time they got to Jaburo.
** If there was no ZZ, then Jerid would hgave survived and taken part in CCA, according to some acclaimed plans. He would be the right-hand man to Amuro and fight Camille(ended up turning Gyunei) and they'll lead the rock-pushing scene. Sort of a shame.

** Jerid was a foil to Kamille, but by the end of the series he was nowhere near his level and [[SlidingScaleOfVillainThreat compared to other antagonists]] like Scirocco, Haman & Yazan he was small-time. Also, Tomino tends to kill off lots of characters in undramatic ways, underscoring the chaotic view of war that he has...and really, Jerid was never all that BadAss. He had ceased being a threat to Kamille by the time they got to Jaburo.

*** While most of what the above poster wrote is correct, it could be seen from the other end. The Titan leaders besides Scirocco are all CompleteMonsters, and Scirocco's ManipulativeBastard skills aren't enough to make him sympathetic. On the other hand, in the original MS Gundam, the only truly evil Zeonic leaders are Gihren Zabi, M'Quve, and possibly Csyllia Zabi. That said, Zeta is far more deep than MS Gundam, the AEUG and its highly bizarre makeup and loose hierarchy make for very unusual protagonists (Mr. Wong is a horrifying political leader for someone supposed to be ''good''), and the three-way interface between the AEUG, Titans, and Axis Zeon makes for great political drama. The way Scirocco had no problem kneeling before Mineva Zabi while Char balked at the prospect nearly lost the war for the AEUG before Char swallowed his pride. The psychological drama surrounding Kamille is also interesting, as both Four and Rosamia get close to him and reveal the problem with Psycho-Newtypes: WithGreatPowerComesGreatInsanity.

** For this troper, Zeta strikes a nice balance between lightness and darkness. Even this troper, fan of KillEmAll, AnyoneCanDie, and DysfunctionJunction thought Victory went a little overboard. Zeta is much better about letting characters develop before killing them off (for the most part). Also, the music is amazing, and the intrigue between Haman, Scirocco, and Qauttro is pretty interesting.

* I was always bugged by the prevalence of Reccoa-hate. Okay so she jumps ships and is shown to be a very selfish person. ''Welcome to Gundam!'' What I don't get is why people jump to the conclusion that the entirety of her reason for leaving is Char not returning her affections. Selfish or no, there's a lot of stuff to suggest that she isn't happy with her life as a member of the AEUG--she admits to being an adrenaline junkie who only feels alive when putting herself in danger, and the AEUG had been keeping her off of the front lines more at that point. I mean, the whole thing with her deciding to get rid of all the plants in her room seemed like a major indication that she was depressed over something. Yeah that's not a good reason to swap sides and fight against her former teammates, but if you hate selfish characters, again, you're not going to do so hot finding people to like in Tomino works. And it's not like Yazan didn't basically kidnap her, and ''then'' she decided to join the Titans. I'm not saying that she's supposed to be completely likable, but I find her to be in the category of characters who are enjoyable for their flaws, not a "wallbanger." I mean, hell, if you're gonna talk Zeta wallbangers, "There's such a thing as being too much of a woman" is a lot worse.

*** Uh, I think it ''was'' necessary for her to prove her allegiance, because she was being ordered to do so by Bask Om, generally portrayed as the kind of guy who flushes people who don't seem loyal enough out of airlocks. In fact, doesn't her joining with a guy who's planning on eventually backstabbing the Titans mean that she ''especially'' needs to prove her loyalty so she doesn't screw things up for ''him''? Obviously I'm not defending genocide in the name of covering up political machinations, but it's not like she volunteered to go on the mission, and it's not like she wasn't vocally ''hoping'' for Kamille to show up and stop her. Besides which I don't think she personally did any gassing, though I could be mistaken on that. And as far as her claiming to be an independent woman goes... I don't think that was ever a defining character trait of hers, just that she liked an exciting lifestyle and didn't want to be tied down. And she obviously realizes at the end that she's been used by Scirocco, hence her whole "perhaps women are fated to be used by men" thing. Point being... I tend to see her as a character who is too lost in life to really know what she's after, and in her attempts to get what she -thinks- she wants, fails miserably, digging herself in deeper. In her effort to escape a life where she felt unappreciated and useless, she joins Scirocco, who makes her feel useful and valued, but she ultimately realizes that he's doing so to manipulate her. I can understand not liking her because it still all comes down to her being really selfish, but I don't get the attitude that as a ''character'' she's worthless.

**** So realizing that you're stuck in a self-destructive set of behaviors makes you completely unlikeable? I'm just saying, I don't think she has a damn clue ''what'' she wants, and the fact that she does drastic, stupid stuff in an effort to figure it out, and ultimately only makes things worse gives her an interesting, somewhat literary quality. Even allowing that she makes dumb decisions and is hypocritical, lord knows that's a pattern of human behavior that you see in real life. I still don't understand why people jump on the most simplistic, idiotic interpretation of her motives and then bitch about it as if the series doesn't support any other takes on her character, ones that don't involve her being brainwashed or just a "woman scorned" by Char. I mean, if a character's entire personality/motivation seems ''that'' stupid to you, don't you ever think there's a chance you might be overlooking something that might fit better?

*** Uh, I think it ''was'' necessary for her to prove her allegiance, because she was being ordered to do so by Bask Om, generally portrayed as the kind of guy who flushes people who don't seem loyal enough out of airlocks. In fact, doesn't her joining with a guy who's planning on eventually backstabbing the Titans mean that she ''especially'' needs to prove her loyalty so she doesn't screw things up for ''him''? Obviously I'm not defending genocide in the name of covering up political machinations, but it's not like she volunteered to go on the mission, and it's not like she wasn't vocally ''hoping'' for Kamille to show up and stop her. Besides which I don't think she personally did any gassing, though I could be mistaken on that. And as far as her claiming to be an independent woman goes... I don't think that was ever a defining character trait of hers, just that she liked an exciting lifestyle and didn't want to be tied down. And she obviously realizes at the end that she's been used by Scirocco, hence her whole "perhaps women are fated to be used by men" thing. Point being... I tend to see her as a character who is too lost in life to really know what she's after, and in her attempts to get what she -thinks- she wants, fails miserably, digging herself in deeper. In her effort to escape a life where she felt unappreciated and useless, she joins Scirocco, who makes her feel useful and valued, but she ultimately realizes that he's doing so to manipulate her. I can understand not liking her because it still all comes down to her being really selfish, but I don't get the attitude that as a ''character'' she's worthless.

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