History Headscratchers / Jingo

** Just before A's [[UpperClassTwit Rust]] heads off with the army to Klatch after Vimes, Hornett tries to show that they aren't yet ready to embark on the invasion. Later mention is made of how large the Klatchian army is compared to the Morporkian army at the battle, and a fleet is already amassed to take the Klatchians to Ankh-Morpork in timeline A. Vimes' A's disorganiser only starts reporting the invasion in timeline B after this point, so, without Vimes present in Klatch in timeline B, Vetinari never managed to get his message of surrended to Klatch in time (or Cadram chose to ignore it), the Klatchians set out to attack Ankh-Morpork, decimate the unprepared Morporkian Army, and the Watch is forced to defend the city. [[KillEmAll Unsuccessfully]].

** Because the last time it came up was during the reign of Snapcase, so most peoples' minds were on more important things like paying taxes and not getting beaten up/robbed/arrested, etc.

** a very clear Real Life example is how fast Roman ruins in the UK into tales of Giants

** If this novel's events were in any way typical of what happens when Leshp emerges from the depths, it's quite possible that both sides of the previous squabble over the place were too ''embarrassed'' to want to document it. Details weren't recorded, for the same reason that Ridcully didn't offer any specific details on ''why'' the fancy bathroom from ''Discworld/{{Hogfather}}'' shouldn't be re-opened under any circumstance.

** Because the last time it came up was during the reign of Snapcase, so most peoples' minds were on more imprtant things like paying taxes and not getting beaten up/robbed/arrested, etc.

** Scientist have found a real sunken island in the Mediterranean before that was at one point inhabited. The only reason we ever knew it was there, because we were looking for Atlantis. Because the last time it came up was during the reign of Snapcase, so most peoples' minds were on more imprtant things like paying taxes and not getting beaten up/robbed/arrested, etc.

*** Yes, but it's also mentioned that people added buildings to the island, the architecture showing they were both from Klatch and Ankh-Morpork, why doesn't anyone remember them?
**** Because they were thousands of years old, and we don't exactly remember every Roman or Ottoman province?
**** But surely ''an entire friggin' island'' dis/appearing would have left some mention in the history of either side, especially one with "uninhabited fertile ground with superb anchorage in an unsurpassed strategic location"? I mean, we're still talking about [[{{Atlantis}} an island that disappeared in a terrible cataclysm]] that never existed, whereas Leshp is in fact real for Discworlders.
***** I'm pretty sure we're only talking about Atlantis because one of our greatest early philosophers used it as an imaginary perfect city state. We only remember Troy because of Homer. Who knows what great cities from that era were destroyed spectacularly, but didn't leave any literary reminders?
***** Yes, yes, but getting back on topic, my point is that Leshp has been inhabited before (and more than likely been fought over, given what we're told of Lord Rust and other aristocrats' ancestors), why doesn't anyone remember the island that keeps going away?
****** Because it only appears for a brief period of a few weeks at a time?
****** How does that stop them from mentioning it? The Circle Sea is small enough to be crossed in two days, the island is [[http://static.squidoo.com/resize/squidoo_images/250/draft_lens8758911module76550771photo_1262163977discworld-circle_sea.jpg in the middle]], so it's not like they're out of contact for weeks at a time. This should appear somewhere, if only as "lost contact with colony of Leshp AGAIN".
****** People ''do'' remember Leshp, if rather vaguely: the legendary sunken city first got mentioned in ''Mort''. The fact it had sunk and risen more than once ''wasn't'', but it's the sort of thing mythographers would decide make the legend untidy. And doesn't Slant say in ''Jingo'' that there are records calling Leshp an Ankh-Morpork domain?
****** The Discworld does have its sunken continent myth - the land of Ku. Which took a leisurely forty years to sink, and people had to wear fishermen's waders a lot. It is regarded as the most embarrasing cataclysm myth in the multiverse. This perhaps obscures Leshp in public consciousness?
******* Scientist have found a real sunken island in the Mediterranean before that was at one point inhabited. The only reason we ever knew it was there, because we were looking for Atlantis. Because the last time it came up was during the reign of Snapcase, so most peoples' minds were on more imprtant things like paying taxes and not getting beaten up/robbed/arrested, etc.

*** But wasn't Timeline A's Rust's invasion force still intact, and still facing the Klatchian army on the other side of the sea, while Timeline B's Ankh-Morkpork was already being razed and its Watchmen killed?
**** Just before A's [[UpperClassTwit Rust]] heads off with the army to Klatch after Vimes, Hornett tries to show that they aren't yet ready to embark on the invasion. Later mention is made of how large the Klatchian army is compared to the Morporkian army at the battle, and a fleet is already amassed to take the Klatchians to Ankh-Morpork in timeline A. Vimes' A's disorganiser only starts reporting the invasion in timeline B after this point, so, without Vimes present in Klatch in timeline B, Vetinari never managed to get his message of surrended to Klatch in time (or Cadram chose to ignore it), the Klatchians set out to attack Ankh-Morpork, decimate the unprepared Morporkian Army, and the Watch is forced to defend the city. [[KillEmAll Unsuccessfully]].
** Rust's armada sets out early because Vimes hijacked Jenkins' boat. This took the Klatchians by surprise, and lead to them re-locating their army (which was about to leave to invade Ankh-Morpork) to defend against Rust's invasion. Had Vimes opted to stay in the city, the Klatchian army would've left a week earlier.

** 'Yes indeed,' he said, opening a large legal tome. 'The history of the city of Leshp and its surrounding country is a little obscure. It is known to have been above the sea almost a thousand years ago, however, when records suggest that it was considered part of the Ankh-Morpork empire-'... 'The records relating to the lost country date back several hundred years, my lord. And they are of course ''our'' records.' 'Only ours?' 'I hardly see how any others could apply,'

**** Just before A's [[UpperClassTwit Rust]] heads off with the army to Klatch after Vimes, Hornett tries to show that they aren't yet ready to embark on the invasion. Later mention is made of how large the Klatchian army is compared to the Morporkian army at the battle, and a fleet is already amassed to take the Klatchians to Ankh-Morpork in timeline A. Vimes' A's disorganiser only starts reporting the invasion in timeline B after this point, so, without Vimes present in Klatch in timeline B, Vetinari never managed to get his message of surrended to Klatch in time (or Cadram chose to ignore it), the Klatchians set out to attack Ankh-Morpork, decimate the unprepared Morporkian Army, and the Watch is forced to defend the city. [[KillEmAll Unsuccessfully]].

* The entire premise of Leshp annoys me: if Leonard had taken sketches there earlier, didn't anyone else notice the island that suddenly appeared out of nowhere and disappeared a while later?
** He took sketches there earlier ''in his [[strike: submarine]] Going-Underwater-Safely-Boat''.
*** Yes, but it's also mentioned that people added buildings to the island, the architecture showing they were both from Klatch and Ankh-Morpork, why doesn't anyone remember them?
**** Because they were thousands of years old, and we don't exactly remember every Roman or Ottoman province?
**** But surely ''an entire friggin' island'' dis/appearing would have left some mention in the history of either side, especially one with "uninhabited fertile ground with superb anchorage in an unsurpassed strategic location"? I mean, we're still talking about [[{{Atlantis}} an island that disappeared in a terrible cataclysm]] that never existed, whereas Leshp is in fact real for Discworlders.
***** I'm pretty sure we're only talking about Atlantis because one of our greatest early philosophers used it as an imaginary perfect city state. We only remember Troy because of Homer. Who knows what great cities from that era were destroyed spectacularly, but didn't leave any literary reminders?
***** Yes, yes, but getting back on topic, my point is that Leshp has been inhabited before (and more than likely been fought over, given what we're told of Lord Rust and other aristocrats' ancestors), why doesn't anyone remember the island that keeps going away?
****** Because it only appears for a brief period of a few weeks at a time?
****** How does that stop them from mentioning it? The Circle Sea is small enough to be crossed in two days, the island is [[http://static.squidoo.com/resize/squidoo_images/250/draft_lens8758911module76550771photo_1262163977discworld-circle_sea.jpg in the middle]], so it's not like they're out of contact for weeks at a time. This should appear somewhere, if only as "lost contact with colony of Leshp AGAIN".
****** People ''do'' remember Leshp, if rather vaguely: the legendary sunken city first got mentioned in ''Mort''. The fact it had sunk and risen more than once ''wasn't'', but it's the sort of thing mythographers would decide make the legend untidy. And doesn't Slant say in ''Jingo'' that there are records calling Leshp an Ankh-Morpork domain?
****** The Discworld does have its sunken continent myth - the land of Ku. Which took a leisurely forty years to sink, and people had to wear fishermen's waders a lot. It is regarded as the most embarrasing cataclysm myth in the multiverse. This perhaps obscures Leshp in public consciousness?

** Considering how often Ankh-Morpork used to burn to the ground, it's likely that most records from hundreds of years ago were destroyed since Leshp's last appearance. Any surviving records are probably in the hands of the Historians' Guild, and how often is an Ankh-Morpork guild going to hand out information free of charge?

** [[{{Rudyard Kipling}} When you're wounded and left]] / [[{{Cold Blooded Torture}} On Afghanistan's plains / And the women come out / to cut up what remains...]]

*** But wasn't Timeline A's Rust's invasion force still intact, and still facing the Klatchian army on the other side of the sea, while Timeline B's Ankh-Morkpork was already being razed and its Watchmen killed?

** Lord Rust's completely and utter failure at invasion, losing all of Ankh-Morpork's troops?

* The timetables of the two Disorganizers bewilders me. In the "real" timeline (or at least the one we follow) [[spoiler:Vimes chases after Ahmed, which embroils him in a self-contained quest that doesn't intersect with or have any bearing on the greater "war" plot until he encounters the amassed armies ''on Klatchian soil''. However, the alternate Vimes is stuck defending the city ''from'' the Klatchian army (and who knows what the Ankh-Morkpork army is doing at the time, or even ''where'' it is.)]] Since Vimes' choice affected ''his'' fate, not the Klatchian prince's or the generals', what exactly [[spoiler:accelerated the Klatchian invasion in alternate Vimes' timeline]] if neither Vimes had anything to do with it?

******* Scientist have found a real sunken island in the Mediterranean before that was at one point inhabited. The only reason we ever knew it was there, because we were looking for Atlantis.** Because the last time it came up was during the reign of Snapcase, so most peoples' minds were on more imprtant things like paying taxes and not getting beaten up/robbed/arrested, etc.

* The timetables of the two Disorganizers bewilders me. In the "real" timeline (or at least the one we follow) [[spoiler:Vimes chases after Ahmed, which embroils him in a self-contained quest that doesn't intersect with or have any bearing on the greater "war" plot until he encounters the amassed armies ''on Klatchian soil''. However, the alternate Vimes is stuck defending the city ''from'' the Klatchian army (and who knows what the Ankh-Morkpork army is doing at the time, or even ''where'' it is.)]] Since Vimes' choice affected ''his'' fate, not the Klatchian prince's or the generals', what exactly [[spoiler:accelerated the Klatchian invasion in alternate Vimes' timeline]] if he had nothing to do with it?

** [[{{Rudyard Kipling}} When you're wounded and left]] / [[{{Cold Blooded Torture}} On Afghanistan's plains / And the women come out / to cut up what remains...]]

****** The Discworld does have its sunken continent myth - the land of Ku. Which took a leisurely forty years to sink, and people had to wear fishermen's waders a lot
******* Scientist have found a real sunken island in the Mediterranean before that was at one point inhabited. The only reason we ever knew it was there, because we were looking for Atlantis.It is regarded as the most embarrasing cataclysm mh in the multiverse. This perhaps obscures Leshp in public consciousness?
** Because the last time it came up was during the reign of Snapcase, so most peoples' minds were on more imprtant things like paying taxes and not getting beaten up/robbed/arrested, etc.

******* Scientist have found a real sunken island in the Mediterranean before that was at one point inhabited. The only reason we ever knew it was there, because we were looking for Atlantis.

** When you're wounded and left / On Afghanistan's plains / And the women come out / to cut up what remains...

** Castration, so you could serve the women but wouldn't be able to sleep with them.

* What did Leonard mean by 'I believe they'd give you to the women'?

** 'Yes indeed,' he said, opening a large legal tome. 'The history of the city of Leshp and its surrounding country is a little obscure. It is known to have been above the sea almost a thousand years ago, however, when records suggest that it was considered part of the Ankh-Morpork empire-'... 'The records relating to the lost country date back several hundred years, my lord. And they are of course ''our'' records.' 'Only ours?' 'I hardly see how any others could apply,'

** He took sketches there earlier ''in his submarine''.