Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 39 (click to see context) from:
to:
** IIRC carpets are forbiden not because they are a muggle artifact, but because there's some sort of monopoly on brooms. Flying carpets are outright said to be the most common way of transportation for wizard in the Islamic and Eastern world, is just in Britain were they are forbiden and maybe in the rest of The West (tho maybe is just that they're not traditional but not forbiden in the rest of Europe or The Americas).
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 404 (click to see context) from:
[[folder: [[folder: Ministry during the war]]
to:
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 16 (click to see context) from:
* What exactly constitutes a 'misuse of Muggle artefacts'? Enchanted brooms seem to be okay, because it is tradition, yet flying carpets are forbidden because carpets are Muggle artefacts. Ministry cars are enchanted to be TARDIS-like, but that's okay, and the Knight bus is a freakin' purple triple-decker bus that zigzags through streets full of Muggle cars, but that seems to be okay, too. On the other hand, Mr Weasley faced an inquiry because of his enchanted Ford Anglia. So, somehow it seems to be a bit random what 'Muggle artefact' can be legally enchanted, and when such an enchantment becomes illegal. The only explanation this Troper could come up so far is 'politics'.
to:
* What exactly constitutes a 'misuse of Muggle artefacts'? artifacts'? Enchanted brooms seem to be okay, because it is tradition, yet flying carpets are forbidden because carpets are Muggle artefacts. Ministry cars are enchanted to be TARDIS-like, but that's okay, and the Knight bus is a freakin' purple triple-decker bus that zigzags through streets full of Muggle cars, but that seems to be okay, too. On the other hand, Mr Weasley faced an inquiry because of his enchanted Ford Anglia. So, somehow it seems to be a bit random what 'Muggle artefact' can be legally enchanted, and when such an enchantment becomes illegal. The only explanation this Troper could come up so far is 'politics'.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 16,17 (click to see context) from:
* What exactly constitutes a 'misuse of Muggle artifacts'? Enchanted brooms seem to be okay, because it is tradition, yet flying carpets are forbidden because carpets are Muggle artifacts. Ministry cars are enchanted to be TARDIS-like, but that's okay, and the Knight bus is a freakin' purple triple-decker bus that zigzags through streets full of Muggle cars, but that seems to be okay, too. On the other hand, Mr. Weasley faced an inquiry because of his enchanted Ford Anglia. So, somehow it seems to be a bit random what 'Muggle artifact' can be legally enchanted, and when such an enchantment becomes illegal. The only explanation this Troper could come up so far is 'politics'.
** Mr. Weasley got in trouble more because of the fact that his car was spotted ''flying'' by several Muggles. If he'd enchanted it to only do the things the other Ministry cars can do, there probably would have been no inquiry at all. It seems to be more along the lines of protecting the statute of secrecy than politics. The flying carpets being outlawed in England seem more a precaution than anything else. They might be more noticeable and people would have a lot less reason to have one in their possession as brooms are necessary for Quidditch and used less often for transportation.
** Mr. Weasley got in trouble more because of the fact that his car was spotted ''flying'' by several Muggles. If he'd enchanted it to only do the things the other Ministry cars can do, there probably would have been no inquiry at all. It seems to be more along the lines of protecting the statute of secrecy than politics. The flying carpets being outlawed in England seem more a precaution than anything else. They might be more noticeable and people would have a lot less reason to have one in their possession as brooms are necessary for Quidditch and used less often for transportation.
to:
* What exactly constitutes a 'misuse of Muggle artifacts'? artefacts'? Enchanted brooms seem to be okay, because it is tradition, yet flying carpets are forbidden because carpets are Muggle artifacts.artefacts. Ministry cars are enchanted to be TARDIS-like, but that's okay, and the Knight bus is a freakin' purple triple-decker bus that zigzags through streets full of Muggle cars, but that seems to be okay, too. On the other hand, Mr. Mr Weasley faced an inquiry because of his enchanted Ford Anglia. So, somehow it seems to be a bit random what 'Muggle artifact' artefact' can be legally enchanted, and when such an enchantment becomes illegal. The only explanation this Troper could come up so far is 'politics'.
**Mr. Mr Weasley got in trouble more because of the fact that his car was spotted ''flying'' by several Muggles. If he'd enchanted it to only do the things the other Ministry cars can do, there probably would have been no inquiry at all. It seems to be more along the lines of protecting the statute of secrecy than politics. The flying carpets being outlawed in England seem more a precaution than anything else. They might be more noticeable and people would have a lot less reason to have one in their possession as brooms are necessary for Quidditch and used less often for transportation.
**
Changed line(s) 22,23 (click to see context) from:
** Broomstick riders can use disillusionment charms so that the flyers can not be seen by Muggles. They could do the same thing with carpets.
** Also, permits. The Ministry knows that it has some flying cars, and the bus is probably registered. Nobody knew that Mr. Weasley had enchanted a car in such a way. About flying carpets, I think they're legal.
** Also, permits. The Ministry knows that it has some flying cars, and the bus is probably registered. Nobody knew that Mr. Weasley had enchanted a car in such a way. About flying carpets, I think they're legal.
to:
** Broomstick riders can use disillusionment charms so that the flyers can not cannot be seen by Muggles. They could do the same thing with carpets.
** Also, permits. The Ministry knows that it has some flying cars, and the bus is probably registered. Nobody knew thatMr. Mr Weasley had enchanted a car in such a way. About flying carpets, I think they're legal.
** Also, permits. The Ministry knows that it has some flying cars, and the bus is probably registered. Nobody knew that
Changed line(s) 27 (click to see context) from:
** And in what way are brooms different from carpets? Both can be found in any given Muggle household, so classifying one as a Muggle artifact whose enchantment is illegal and the other as a legal magic object sounds a bit odd.
to:
** And in what way are brooms different from carpets? Both can be found in any given Muggle household, so classifying one as a Muggle artifact artefact whose enchantment is illegal and the other as a legal magic object sounds a bit odd.
Changed line(s) 31 (click to see context) from:
** Flying carpets aren't traditional in Britain the way that they are in Arabia or the way that flying brooms are in Britain. Therefore, they can be banned without a general uprorar.
to:
** Flying carpets aren't traditional in Britain the way that they are in Arabia or the way that flying brooms are in Britain. Therefore, they can be banned without a general uprorar.uproar.
Changed line(s) 37 (click to see context) from:
** On top pf the general politics, it may be excused with safety concerns. With the broom, you pretty much have to hold on, but with a carpet there is really nothing to hold on to. Maybe there were handles or something, but there is no way of knowing. And of course, it is likely that the foreign carpets were judged more harshly then the traditional brooms on that matter.
to:
** On top pf of the general politics, it may be excused with safety concerns. With the broom, you pretty much have to hold on, but with a carpet carpet, there is really nothing to hold on to. Maybe there were handles or something, but there is no way of knowing. And of course, it is likely that the foreign carpets were judged more harshly then than the traditional brooms on that matter.
Changed line(s) 44 (click to see context) from:
* Not really something that bugs me, but something I kept thinking about: The books take place in the nineties, but now it is 2010 and [[TechnologyMarchesOn the world has changed a little bit]]. Cities like London are riddled with [=CCTV=] surveillance cameras, and Joe Average carries a cellphone that can not only take pictures and videos, but also post them on the internet in a matter of seconds. On the other hand, we have seen wizards depicted as being utterly ignorant to the most basic muggle inventions. Put those two factors together and wizards will have a really hard time to uphold TheMasquerade. Or are there plausible ways to prevent that?
to:
* Not really something that bugs me, but something I kept thinking about: The books take place in the nineties, but now it is 2010 and [[TechnologyMarchesOn the world has changed a little bit]]. Cities like London are riddled with [=CCTV=] surveillance cameras, and Joe Average carries a cellphone that can not only take pictures and videos, videos but also post them on the internet in a matter of seconds. On the other hand, we have seen wizards depicted as being utterly ignorant to the most basic muggle inventions. Put those two factors together and wizards will have a really hard time to uphold TheMasquerade. Or are there plausible ways to prevent that?
Changed line(s) 48 (click to see context) from:
** A) Disillusionment charm. B) Most wizards seem to avoid Muggle population centers whenever they can. (Was it ever said in Deathly Hallows whether Voldemort and his followers were openly attacking Muggles?)
to:
** A) Disillusionment charm. B) Most wizards seem to avoid Muggle population centers centres whenever they can. (Was it ever said in Deathly Hallows whether Voldemort and his followers were openly attacking Muggles?)
Changed line(s) 53,54 (click to see context) from:
** Maybe one of the reasons so many quickly-debunked "supernatural" viral videos circulate on the Internet is that Squibs are planting them online, to keep people skeptical about the ''real'' sightings when they happen...
** What I would want to know in relation to this is how Hogwards deals with all the pissed 11 year old muggleborns who are suddenly stranded without their cellphones and thus can't mail their friends and family on a regular basis anymore. Or are unable to use computers for google and stuff. For kids who grew up in the quick-paced, technology centred world we live in today, the wizarding world would be frustratingly slow...
** What I would want to know in relation to this is how Hogwards deals with all the pissed 11 year old muggleborns who are suddenly stranded without their cellphones and thus can't mail their friends and family on a regular basis anymore. Or are unable to use computers for google and stuff. For kids who grew up in the quick-paced, technology centred world we live in today, the wizarding world would be frustratingly slow...
to:
** Maybe one of the reasons so many quickly-debunked "supernatural" viral videos circulate circulating on the Internet is that Squibs are planting them online, to keep people skeptical sceptical about the ''real'' sightings when they happen...
** What I would want to know in relation to this is howHogwards Hogwarts deals with all the pissed 11 year old muggleborns 11-year-old muggle-borns who are suddenly stranded without their cellphones and thus can't mail their friends and family on a regular basis anymore. Or are unable to use computers for google and stuff. For kids who grew up in the quick-paced, technology centred world we live in today, the wizarding world would be frustratingly slow...
** What I would want to know in relation to this is how
Changed line(s) 57 (click to see context) from:
That said, it's not hard for both magic and human nature to counter technology. Large amounts of magic already puts it on the fritz, so any cameras near Diagon Alley would probably be suffering from glitches and any magical activity caught on them could be handwaved as another error (which could be done on a lesser scale with cameras away from magical hotspots). Making someone forget occurrences takes a few seconds and a simple spell that a teenager can perform. And, most importantly, humans have a WeirdnessCensor. Muggles not only don't believe in magic, but they really ''can't'' believe in it because of how long they're told that there's no such thing as magic. Unless a person is very gullible or mentally ill (or the occurrence is so bafflingly alien that it CAN'T be justified or handwaved away), their first response to seeing what appears to be a person flying on a broom or someone firing a jet of green light at a guy across the street is to start thinking of completely normal explanations, if only so they don't sound silly or high when recounting the tale. The proliferation of image editors means that any photos or videos can and will be called out as hoaxes. The only occurrence that would actually causes a complete break in TheMasquerade would be one that is witnessed live (not on a video or simply an urban legend spread around) by a very large amount of people, extremely obvious, and has no sensible justification. It would take something on par with a magical battle between Aurors and Death Eaters in the middle of Times Square that causes huge amounts of property damage to have an incident that completely runs out of justifications.
to:
That said, it's not hard for both magic and human nature to counter technology. Large amounts of magic already puts it on the fritz, so any cameras near Diagon Alley would probably be suffering from glitches and any magical activity caught on them could be handwaved as another error (which could be done on a lesser scale with cameras away from magical hotspots). Making someone forget occurrences takes a few seconds and a simple spell that a teenager can perform. And, most importantly, humans have a WeirdnessCensor. Muggles not only don't believe in magic, magic but they really ''can't'' believe in it because of how long they're told that there's no such thing as magic. Unless a person is very gullible or mentally ill (or the occurrence is so bafflingly alien that it CAN'T be justified or handwaved away), their first response to seeing what appears to be a person flying on a broom or someone firing a jet of green light at a guy across the street is to start thinking of completely normal explanations, if only so they don't sound silly or high when recounting the tale. The proliferation of image editors means that any photos or videos can and will be called out as hoaxes. The only occurrence that would actually causes cause a complete break in TheMasquerade would be one that is witnessed live (not on a video or simply an urban legend spread around) by a very large amount of people, extremely obvious, and has no sensible justification. It would take something on par with a magical battle between Aurors and Death Eaters in the middle of Times Square that causes huge amounts of property damage to have an incident that completely runs out of justifications.
Changed line(s) 106,109 (click to see context) from:
** Also, it seems like the small size of the magical community in general means that it would be quite rare for a large governing body to take hold in each country with a magical population. Britain appears to be a highly important magical community, with one of the most famous wandmakers in the world calling London his home and a large, very well-respected school of magic in the Scottish Highlands. Despite this, it seems very small by the standards for a country's population and Hogwarts doesn't seem to have more students than an average public high school despite being the only wizarding school in the entire United Kingdom (and thus the ONLY choice for anyone not going international). There probably just isn't a large enough community in many other nations to justify a full sized wizard government, rather than just having a representative for the International Confederation.
** If worth something, the official Potterverse wikia does mentions in the article about the [[http://www.harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/British_Ministry_of_Magic Brisith Ministry of Magic]] that Norway, Germany and Bulgaria all have ministries for magic and they reference Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, chapter 5, as source. Also the section of “see also” includes the pages of the ministries from Andorra, Bangladesh, Brasil, Bulgaria, Burkina Faso, Germany, India, Iran, Liechtenstein, Mongolia, New Zealand, Norway and Pakistan. About the USA, they mention the Magical Congress of the United States of America led by a President that seems to be the magical equivalent of both the British Minister for Magic and the POTUS. The source of this is Pottermore and Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them (film). Also Argentina has the Argentinian Council of Magic whose president is Valentina Vázquez (Pottermore as the source). \\\
Clearly there is a magical government (not always call “ministry”) in most of the “normal” countries, those that have their borders well defined and recognized by the international community. This is canon. So or Germany always had the same ministry and the division was saw as “a muggle thing” or they did had two different ministries and they follow the reunification as the rest of the country. Places like India and Pakistan are probably harder to explain if wizards do not abide to muggles' division of borders. Now the real headscratcher will be cases like really really complicated border’s dispute and state’s sovereignties, can you imagine a case like Israel and Palestine?
** If worth something, the official Potterverse wikia does mentions in the article about the [[http://www.harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/British_Ministry_of_Magic Brisith Ministry of Magic]] that Norway, Germany and Bulgaria all have ministries for magic and they reference Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, chapter 5, as source. Also the section of “see also” includes the pages of the ministries from Andorra, Bangladesh, Brasil, Bulgaria, Burkina Faso, Germany, India, Iran, Liechtenstein, Mongolia, New Zealand, Norway and Pakistan. About the USA, they mention the Magical Congress of the United States of America led by a President that seems to be the magical equivalent of both the British Minister for Magic and the POTUS. The source of this is Pottermore and Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them (film). Also Argentina has the Argentinian Council of Magic whose president is Valentina Vázquez (Pottermore as the source). \\\
Clearly there is a magical government (not always call “ministry”) in most of the “normal” countries, those that have their borders well defined and recognized by the international community. This is canon. So or Germany always had the same ministry and the division was saw as “a muggle thing” or they did had two different ministries and they follow the reunification as the rest of the country. Places like India and Pakistan are probably harder to explain if wizards do not abide to muggles' division of borders. Now the real headscratcher will be cases like really really complicated border’s dispute and state’s sovereignties, can you imagine a case like Israel and Palestine?
to:
** Also, it seems like the small size of the magical community in general means that it would be quite rare for a large governing body to take hold in each country with a magical population. Britain appears to be a highly important magical community, with one of the most famous wandmakers in the world calling London his home and a large, very well-respected school of magic in the Scottish Highlands. Despite this, it seems very small by the standards for a country's population and Hogwarts doesn't seem to have more students than an average public high school despite being the only wizarding school in the entire United Kingdom (and thus the ONLY choice for anyone not going international). There probably just isn't a large enough community in many other nations to justify a full sized full-sized wizard government, rather than just having a representative for the International Confederation.
** If worth something, the official Potterverse wikia does mentions in the article about the [[http://www.harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/British_Ministry_of_MagicBrisith British Ministry of Magic]] that Norway, Germany and Bulgaria all have ministries for magic and they reference Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, chapter 5, as the source. Also the section of “see also” includes the pages of the ministries from Andorra, Bangladesh, Brasil, Bulgaria, Burkina Faso, Germany, India, Iran, Liechtenstein, Mongolia, New Zealand, Norway and Pakistan. About the USA, they mention the Magical Congress of the United States of America led by a President that seems to be the magical equivalent of both the British Minister for Magic and the POTUS. The source of this is Pottermore and Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them (film). Also Argentina has the Argentinian Council of Magic whose president is Valentina Vázquez (Pottermore as the source). \\\
Clearly Clearly, there is a magical government (not always call “ministry”) in most of the “normal” countries, those that have their borders well defined and recognized by the international community. This is canon. So or Germany always had the same ministry and the division was saw as “a muggle thing” or they did had have two different ministries and they follow the reunification as the rest of the country. Places like India and Pakistan are probably harder to explain if wizards do not abide to by muggles' division of borders. Now the real headscratcher will be cases like really really complicated border’s dispute and state’s sovereignties, can you imagine a case like Israel and Palestine?
Palestine? Ditto to North and South Korea, how whould a Korean wizard goverment work, or a case like North and south Vietnam.
** If worth something, the official Potterverse wikia does mentions in the article about the [[http://www.harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/British_Ministry_of_Magic
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 378 (click to see context) from:
** There's an interesting theory that it's precisely ''because'' they know for a fact that the Afterlife is real, ''but not'' exactly what it's like. They can't know if the Afterlife has a Heaven/Hell, Divine Court system, or if it's just "everybody gets in and sort themselves out". Ergo, the wizards don't want to have to deal with a dead Dark Lord taking over the Afterlife and ruining it for ''them'' when their time comes, so instead they make sure there's nothing left of the criminal to Pass On.
to:
** There's an interesting theory that it's precisely ''because'' they know for a fact that the Afterlife is real, ''but not'' exactly what it's like. They can't know if the Afterlife has a Heaven/Hell, Divine Court system, or if it's just "everybody gets in and sort themselves out". Ergo, the wizards don't want to have to deal with a dead Dark Lord taking over the Afterlife and ruining it for ''them'' when their time comes, so instead instead, they make sure there's nothing left of the criminal to Pass On.
Changed line(s) 380 (click to see context) from:
** Also we have similar things in real life. Lobotomy was used as a way to deal with criminals in the UK for decades long after death penaly was abolished and was seen as a more "humane" way to deal with them.
to:
** Also we have similar things in real life. Lobotomy was used as a way to deal with criminals in the UK for decades long after death penaly penalty was abolished and was seen as a more "humane" way to deal with them.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
[[folder: [[folder: Ministry during the war]]
* Other than the Administrivia/DefaultAnswer, how did Voldemort and his Death Eaters take over ALL OF BRITAIN just by placing an Imperius Curse on just a few officials? The citizens just accepted the new regime despite being in an open war with the Death Eaters and vastly outnumbering them! Shouldn't there have been some sort of resistance from the Aurors and normal citizens alike? I mean, they were just allowing citizens to be dragged away and killed. Don't tell me they didn't know, everyone did.
** Same story as with any such regime. The tyrant was cracking down hard, and not enough people were willing to organize out of fear. (And the rumors about how, for instance, Harry killed Dumbledore, can't have helped.)
*** This isn't the same story because: 1. the citizens all had weapons (their wands) and 2. Voldemort has, what, 1 to 2 hundred Death Eaters against thousands of armed citizens. And as for the rumors, what kind of idiots would believe a regime that includes known mass murderers (Bellatrix and others)?
*** With regard to the weapons, it's a myth that merely owning a weapon means you can't be oppressed. Just look at a lot of regimes across Africa and the Middle East where gun control is "do you have the money?" and have some of the worst regimes on the planet. It's really difficult getting ordinary people to use weapons against other people, ''even'' in live or death situations. Armies spend a lot of time, money, and effort physically and psychologically breaking that mindset in their recruits. And even then it isn't that successful, most trained soldiers still have enormous difficulty firing on other human beings. Add into that wizards are taught, almost as soon as they get it, that their wand is a tool, most would never think of it as a weapon.
** Believe me when I say people under oppressive regimes are are reluctant to rise due to many reasons other than weapons. I come from one. Yet we call ourselves a democracy. We have known child rapists and murderers in the government. They manipulate and intimidate law and court system. But people are used to it. Most people hate them. But it doesn't make anyone stand up against them because they don't want to be adversely affected, and they aren't sure that even if they do stand up, others will rise up with them to get rid of the oppressors. The government controls the state media. Half the population believes the lies they spout out. Some people support the regime because they and their families benefit from it. People are scared of more things than outright death. People fear losing jobs or not getting a good one. We fear other subtle retribution. They don't want to risk our families. It is harder to stand up against a regime which makes a mockery out of democracy than an outright killing rampage. In short, wizarding community is totally believable to me. I see it every day. If I had a gun, I won't use it one the random chance of getting past their security. They, after all, control the the security forces of the country. Even if I do manage to kill one, it's effectively the ruin of my family. Rowling's representation of wizards is very accurate as I see. But I do get that most people from places without that sort of thing will not get that mentality.
*** After what we've seen of the Ministry in ''Order of the Phoenix'', that they went along with the Thicknesse policy even after it became clear he was under Voldemort is hardly a stretch. And even outside the Death Eaters, there's a mainstay of pureblood supremacism. But as for your main point, about the wands... yeah, all right. Rowling never did strike me as big on gun rights, so it's pretty reasonable to say that she never gave the idea of an armed citizenry much thought.
*** Still, '''known Death Eaters''' working for the Ministry? Come on, someone ''must'' have noticed that! You also wonder why no one noticed the tremendous imbalance of numbers in favor of the general public, who hate Voldemort. As for the pureblood supremacy part, only the purebloods themselves believed that, there weren't many left, ''and'' not all of them believed in it. Of course, Voldemort is the exception.
*** Voldemort and the Death Eaters effectively divided and conquered. They forced all the kids to come to Hogwarts, splitting them from their parents, then kept each in line with threats to hurt the other (ex: The Lovegoods).
*** You mean Yaxley? He's one of the folks who wriggled out of Azkaban, and was in the Ministry long before the coup. And there's still the dementors, giants, and Inferi. The former two being the ones Dumbledore mentioned as critical to the war effort.
*** Hey, a known Death Eater ran ''Durmstrang''. If they'll let their kids be educated by one, they'll let them do anything.
*** From all we've seen, Voldemort tended to focus on Britain first. It's entirely possible that most of the people who send their kids to Durmstrang don't know what a Death Eater is - and that the rest would be happy to see him in charge (remember, the Malfoys considered sending Draco there).
*** One effective way I can think of to get people to accept the Death Eaters would be for Thicknesse to announce that anyone who defected would be given amnesty and a Ministry position. A liberal amount of "defections" later and the Death Eaters are in control of the Ministry and the statue gets built.
** Wizards are well known for sticking their heads in the sand, and Voldemort carefully forged a reputation for blowing the families of those who opposed him into little pieces. Add to that the fact that the Ministry pretty much centralized all authority, and the Wizarding world is pretty much leaderless. Death Eaters Apparating to the area whenever someone says Voldemort's name can't have helped much either.
*** That's a reasonable explanation; however, some things still need to be addressed. Voldemort seized control of the Ministry through the Imperius Curse, and not a word was muttered in opposition by the wizarding world. There would have been some form of resistance, even if it was not well organized, in the beginning. Death squads would have eventually stamped them out, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have ''tried''. The author comes across a significant problem in this regard, because Voldemort takes control of the Ministry, and... literally within a matter of seconds, his rule is accepted outright, the wanted criminals and villains forming his ranks are allowed to operate openly in society with absolute impunity, and people still recognize the Ministry as the legitimate authority. Furthermore, the Order of the Phoenix and the Death Eaters have been engaging each other in literal death matches for years (essentially mounting to open war between the two groups), and yet once the Ministry is taken, both sides immediately stop fighting. Members of the Order are allowed to continue operating normally in society (e.g., Mr. Weasley maintains his job at the Ministry) and the Death Eaters are no longer challenged. The problem is that history and human nature inform us that if Voldemort had seized uncontested control of the Ministry, one of the first things he would have done would have been to eliminate the greatest threats to that control, namely the Order. Mr. Weasley would have at least been removed from the Ministry. Explanations may abound, some of them may even make sense, but in the end, the lack of interest Rowling showed in addressing these questions leaves the reader with a sense that AdultsAreUseless and All Adults Are Stupid.
*** By letting them keep their normal jobs, Voldie's rubbing their noses in the fact that they failed. Not to mention the fact that he considers just about anyone who's not a threat or an ally beneath his notice.
*** So firing them both was going to make it ''easier'' to keep tabs on them, to see if Harry tried to contact them or their son?
*** Voldemort himself probably didn't bother too much with running the Ministry after setting up his puppet Minister. He wasn't even the one who Imperiused Pius. Voldy probably saw to it that the Ministry was under Death Eater control, got some of his followers planted to keep an eye on things/run everything, and concentrated on stuff like killing Harry.
** And there was a sizable resistance, though it doesn't seem to have been doing very much. Note Radio Harry, and the huge numbers that turn up at the end.
*** The sizable resistance consisted of people, some with ill-repute and others with strong repute, hiding in the shadows doing nothing. Sure, they resisted intellectually, but big deal. Meanwhile, Vold-dude and his cronies killed and enslaved people. There may be good explanations as to the reason why the general wizarding populace didn't rise up in rebellion, but the significant problem is that those explanations were not given in the book. The author did a poor job in this regard. In a society as highly educated and sophisticated as the wizarding world, it is very unlikely that a notorious criminal (one so vile, so evil, so undeniably malicious that none but a significant minority dared even mutter his name) could seize control and not be met by a massive uprising. It would be akin to the world's most renowned murderer taking control of a democratic government and no one having the balls to stand up to him (even though numerous members of the armed forces [aka aurors, etc] were opposed to him as well).
*** The explanation was clearly stated within the first few chapters of the book. The wizarding populace is afraid that their families will be attacked by Voldemort, just like other families have been. And, like most people, they rely upon the government to handle these threats. Even in the US, we would reasonably expect these kinds of things handled by one of the various law enforcement agencies at the national or state levels at the least. Even if civilian assistance was needed, there's the draft. And the Geneva Convention makes distinctions between combatants and civilians and how they are treated.
*** Like the Nazis in the 30s, oppressive regimes rely on the fact that most people ''won't'' actively resist and they concentrate their efforts on the hard core that do until the reign of terror is well established. "First they came for the communists and I did not speak out, because I was not a communist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists and I did not speak out, because I was not a trade Unionist.... Then they came for me. And there was no one to speak up for me," is probably just as true for the wizarding world as it was for Germany.
*** Yes, but the Nazis also came to power because a lot of the people ''were'' buying what they were selling. They would never have lasted as long as they did if, at minimum, the majority of the army wasn't willing to obey the orders coming down. A ''lot'' of the population of 1930s Germany wanted Germany to be a strong national power again and get out of the Weimar-era depression and were willing to back anybody who looked like they could pull it off. Making the same analogy re: Magical Britain leaves Magical Britain looking ''really really bad''.
*** And along that line, consider that the Department of Magical Law Enforcement apparently has no equivalent of the "illegal orders doctrine" used by most Western militaries, seeing as how there is ''nothing'' in canon to indicate that the already-existing Aurors on duty either resigned en masse or bugged out to form their own Resistance Army and had to all be replaced by Death Eaters. Nope. Yaxley gets made their new boss and they get sent out to drag Muggleborns in for Umbridge's show trials ''and the Aurors actually do it''. If somebody Imperio'ed the US President tomorrow and had him issue orders to the federal law enforcement agencies and the military to start rounding up all people of [insert whatever ethnic background here] for concentration camps, the ''best''-case scenario he could hope for was impeachment. Worst-case, it starts the Second American Civil War. But everybody just snapping to and going 'Hokey-dokey boss, ethnic cleansing it is!'? ''Not happening''.
*** Except for that one time that it totally did happen... [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans]]
*** Highly educated? Wizards are, quite frankly, not the brightest lights in the firmament. Don't forget that at age thirteen, Harry is taught that the historical witch burnings were "pointless" because none of the '''tens of thousands of victims''' were actual wizards or witches. And this is under Dumbledore's supposedly progressive leadership. This is not the sort of thinking that results in a population that is inclined to defend itself. (And just to ice the cake, the "historical witch burnings didn't kill any witches" was later retcon'd to be total bullshit; hundreds of wizards were killed by the inquisitors).
*** Do not get me started on JKR's take on the witch burnings.
*** How can Wizards be highly educated when Hogwarts has no math, science, or English teachers? Hell, they don't even have a gymnasium! The real question is, why aren't they all fat little functional illiterates?
*** ^ Wizard children are home-schooled or Muggle-public-schooled before getting their letters and going off to boarding school. Besides, they ARE taught math and science and presumably, literature: Potions, Herbology, Arithmancy, and some others we probably didn't hear about; why teach them useless Muggle versions, like Algebra and Chemistry? Not to mention, I'm sure that flying and Quidditch involve more physical fitness than just hanging on to a broomstick -- if dodging Peeves and out-racing the moving staircases don't count as exercise.
*** Since when the hell are algebra, chemistry, and other such subjects useless because magic exists? To make things like guns, for example, you need to know the properties of metal, the explosives of gunpowder, and the ballistics of the bullet, which take science and mathematics to know. And that's just a directly practical application; one of the most important things to learn from science, apart from the facts it has discovered, is the thinking of the method itself (the idea of finding evidence and testing hypothesizes and applying Occam's razor and so on). Those would make wizards better thinkers, if nothing else.
*** "To make things like guns..." Wizards don't care to make things like guns. Wizards don't need to know these things because magic accomplishes for them what math and science accomplish for us. You're assuming that the things that signify progress in ''our'' world would also signify progress for wizards; they don't. Even between different real-world cultures, there are plenty of practices that one culture might consider absolutely necessary for a modern society that another might consider superfluous.
*** Yes, and the problem with the Hogwarts subjects is that they consist almost entirely of following directions. They learn how to do the things they're taught to do in class, but there's no non-magical skill-building: no critical thinking, no learning how the natural world works, and so on. The only class they have that isn't all about the direct practical application is History of Magic, and that's all about listening to lectures, not to mention entirely focused on the Wizarding minority. A Hogwarts education is the equivalent of an apprenticeship. They may have learned some basic skills before age 11, but they're not "highly educated" by any stretch of the imagination.
*** It's easy to forget that wizards aren't soldiers. Just because Mrs. Smith has a stick that could create a mushroom cloud doesn't mean she's ever used it for anything more destructive than clearing out the gutters. The schoolchildren have been taught some combat-effective spells because Dumbledore thought it was necessary, not because blowing people to bits is part of an ordinary Wizarding education. Most witches and wizards are ordinary people, not heroes, not adventurers, not shining warriors of the light. They're just people who happen to have magic instead of elbow grease.
*** The Ministry (before its fall) had published free pamphlets on how to use defensive spells and distributed them to all wizarding homes. Therefore, most wizards should be capable of a simple Stunning Spell and should have no problem fighting with magic. So logically, there are thousands of armed citizens that should have been easily able to overwhelm the Death Eaters through sheer numbers, if nothing else.
*** You can't learn to be a duelist from a pamphlet. Umbridge vs Harry Re: Defense Against the Dark Arts in book five should have made that clear.
*** Anyone remember Snape's puzzle from Philospher's Stone? During it, Hermione says something like "Even the greatest wizards have no logic whatsoever," and that is what made it an effective guard for the Stone. I haven't read the book in a while, but the gist seems to be that wizards rely on their powers a bit too much, and looking for answers outside of them is clearly not a strong suit. See also Muggle subjugation of wizards, possibly.
** Using ''Inferi''? The ones that can only be created through '''Dark Magic'''? Hmmm, looking mighty suspicious there, new regime. And the fact that Dementors were working for the Ministry even though it was made public that they had joined Voldemort. Wow, how did no one notice that even with all of those creatures, the citizens still had a massive numerical advantage? Plus, they can do magic, while those creatures can't. And if a few hundred students managed to drive those same creatures back, how do you think they would hold up against thousands of fully trained adults?
*** I think the answer here pretty much has to be "Because 99% of normal people will not organize and resist when an evil regime comes to power, because they're either scared of dying (Big V is ''really good'' at murdering people), misjudge the threat (Rumor has it that Voldemort can kill you with just a dour look), aren't entirely sure the new regime is worse than the old one (Specifically relevant here, since it's taboo to even speak Voldemort's name, so most of the Wizarding world can't actually ''discuss'' the matter safely. I think someone explains that most people aren't 100% sure that Voldemort really ''has'' taken over), don't think it's their place (He's only going after the mud-bloods), don't realize that most everyone else feels the same way (Sure, they've got numbers on their side. But classic thief's dilemma. If everyone else stays home and doesn't resist, it's a really bad idea for ''me'' to go out and resist; our superior numbers aren't worth much if I'm the only one who shows up), or has better things to do (If I go off and join the Order, who's going to look after my wife and kids?
*** There's also something to be said for a regime that has at its disposal creatures capable of inducing the symptoms of depression -- I really don't doubt that the Riddle administration was strategically deploying Dementors to maximize feelings of powerlessness and anxiety (recalling that very few members of the general population would be capable of casting the counter-charm, much less knowing it).
*** The Wizards weren't even sure that Voldemort was capable of dying (as it turns out, he wasn't, but they didn't have all the details). Assaulting a tyrant who is literally invincible is suicide, and not everyone is brave enough to make a suicidal charge to prove a point.
*** So, in a word, it's the Bystander Effect. Nobody does anything because they think everyone else is doing it. Typically, the larger the group of people, the worse the effect gets. An entire nation of people suffering it is brutal.
*** And on the point of the Inferi being created by Dark magic, how often in RealLife have people let their governments get away with immoral things for the greater good? If it's possible for the wizards burying their heads in the sand to convince themselves that it's all part of the Ministry's efforts ''against'' Voldemort, then they probably will.
** The book is told from Harry's point of view. Harry spent about 90% of his quest hiding in forests with Hermione and Ron for company. How do we know that there ''weren't'' more active resistance groups than Potterwatch? It was mentioned that there were witches and wizards who cast defensive magic spells on their Muggle neighbors, and we find out later that a good number of students at Hogwarts were actively defying the Carrows and Snape.
** The one who said "wizards sticking their heads in the sand" is closest to correct. The way the book portrayed, it was that Voldemort's rule was so accepted because no-one really knew whether or not it was really ''him'' in control, and no-one particularly wanted to know, as that would get them in trouble. If he had openly seized power all at once, there would have been rebellion, but he did not. Actually, his finesse in the matter reminds me of [[StarWars Palpatine]] and the whole Clone Wars bit. Only the Order knew definitively that the Ministry had fallen, and they didn't move because many of them were still in the Ministry, and could work from the inside out, but most of the citizenry just wanted everything to be okay and move about their business without getting rounded up.
*** Keep in mind that Voldemort wasn't the Minister of Magic. Pius Thicknesse was. Officially, Voldemort was still an enemy of the state, though the fact that the government was suddenly following his philosophy was probably a dead giveaway. Even so, Voldemort controls the Daily Prophet (most wizards' source of news) AND the Quibbler (the primary opposition), so he can keep his activities relatively secretive. Yaxly might have kept on Arthur Weasley to keep some semblance of normalcy. This also explains why no international support came in; as far as wizard France or America is concerned, everything is under control in Britain. That and the bystander effect explain the lack of public uprising. It doesn't help that the Ministry's new official opinion on blood purity is somewhat popular even among some non-Death Eater groups or that a killing-curse-spewing Death Eater is scary to face even as a trainer Auror, let alone someone who got their only combat training from a pamphlet.
* This has to do with why the Creevey brothers were at Hogwarts. I had always assumed that they came when Neville summoned the DA, but in the scene when they're evacuating the younger students, one or both of them is in the great hall with the regular students, not in the Room of Requirement, and [=McGonnagal=] specifically insists that he evacuate, which suggests she has jurisdiction over him still. However, the Creeveys are Muggle-born, so why are they attending school? Wouldn't they have had to have been in hiding up to that point? I know Dean Thomas and others come back for the final fight, but the IJBM is more to do with the fact that they were implied to have been there the whole time.
** It could be that [=McGonnagal=] was using the residual authority she had as acting headmistress - the Creevey brothers did attend school in her house for a number of years, so that "jurisdiction" may have just been force of habit. The Creeveys could have snuck in earlier than the evacuation; people had been arriving all day since Harry arrived, and Minerva was just telling them to forget it and turn back. Alternatively, the Creeveys were simply one of the families to successfully fake their Wizarding heritage in order to attend school.
* How were Squibs treated under the new regime? It seems like they would be hated, being non-magical and a sign of shame, but they also seem like a good way to scapegoat Muggle-borns (oh, these thieves stole magic away from the poor, virtuous would-be wizard!).
** It seems like they were probably treated badly; Filch was on Umbridge's side in the fifth book, but was on the light side during the Battle of Hogwarts.
*** Umbridge may be willing to use Dark spells when she deems it necessary, but she's not a Dark witch. She was the second-in-command of the Minister of Magic - a rather respectable position - and at the time of Umbridge's reign in Hogwarts, Voldemort was ''not'' in control of the Ministry. So, comparing the situation under Umbridge to the situation under Voldemort is a bit like comparing apples and oranges.
*** Um no its not comparing apples to oranges... since she was on Voldy's side in book 7. Who was it that was in charge of the "Muggle-Born Registration Committee"?
*** I think it is more a question of unquestioning loyalty to the government, regardless of who runs it. Remember, there is such a thing as collaborators.
*** If worth something, WordOfGod says Umbridge was never a Death Eater.
[[/folder]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
****When people say that the Ministry of Magic has "extensive corruption", from where it takes such notion? I'm curious because I see it mentioned often, what exactly represents corruption or what example of corruption can they bring up that has ever seen on pages?
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
*** True, but it's explicitly mentioned that he didn't even consider house elves capable of Apparating where witches and wizards weren't able to - otherwise, he wouldn't have left Kreacher for dead. Whatever no-Apparation wards Azkaban has in effect are probably something only the Ministry knows about.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
[[folder: Permissibility]]
* So it's said that Veritaserum and Pensieve memories are completely inadmissible in wizarding court proceedings, due to how they can be tampered with or flat-out unreliable...But the same holds true for eyewitness testimony, and we still allow that to be presented at a trial. Rather than forbidding their use, wouldn't it be better to present them and leave it up to the judge/jury to decide what's true? What good is a super-powerful truth potion or a memory projector if they aren't allowed to be used when it really matters?
[[/folder]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 69 (click to see context) from:
*** Recruiting Muggle soldiers or police who are related to Muggleborns into a 'Hogwarts Guard' military/security unit would render the unit susceptible to government corruptions [[NotSoDifferent not unlike the ones created by pure-blood crony-ism and nepotism]]. Despite the Ministry of Magic's extensive corruption, as a whole, they had not yet engaged in widespread crony-ism or nepotism, aside from the Death Eaters regime. Even those who are open-minded might assume all pure-bloods are Death Eaters when they are briefed about the latter. The resulting anti-pure-blood prejudice by the Guards, alongside Muggle corruptions, would be excellent recruiting sergeants for the Death Eaters.
to:
*** Recruiting Muggle soldiers or police who are related to Muggleborns into a 'Hogwarts Guard' military/security unit would render the unit susceptible to government corruptions [[NotSoDifferent not unlike the ones created by pure-blood crony-ism and nepotism]]. Despite the Ministry of Magic's extensive corruption, as a whole, they had not yet engaged in widespread crony-ism or nepotism, aside from the Death Eaters regime. Even those who are open-minded might assume all pure-bloods are Death Eaters when they are briefed about the latter. The resulting anti-pure-blood prejudice and brutality by the Guards, alongside Muggle corruptions, would be excellent recruiting sergeants for the Death Eaters.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 69 (click to see context) from:
*** Recruiting Muggle soldiers or police who are related to Muggleborns into a 'Hogwarts Guard' military/security unit would render the unit susceptible to government corruptions [[NotSoDifferent not unlike the ones created by pure-blood crony-ism and nepotism]]. Even those who are open-minded might assume all pure-bloods are Death Eaters when they are briefed about the latter. The resulting anti-pure-blood prejudice by the Guards, alongside Muggle corruptions, would be excellent recruiting sergeants for the Death Eaters.
to:
*** Recruiting Muggle soldiers or police who are related to Muggleborns into a 'Hogwarts Guard' military/security unit would render the unit susceptible to government corruptions [[NotSoDifferent not unlike the ones created by pure-blood crony-ism and nepotism]]. Despite the Ministry of Magic's extensive corruption, as a whole, they had not yet engaged in widespread crony-ism or nepotism, aside from the Death Eaters regime. Even those who are open-minded might assume all pure-bloods are Death Eaters when they are briefed about the latter. The resulting anti-pure-blood prejudice by the Guards, alongside Muggle corruptions, would be excellent recruiting sergeants for the Death Eaters.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 69 (click to see context) from:
*** Recruiting Muggle soldiers or police who are related to Muggleborns into a 'Hogwarts Guard' military/security unit would render the unit susceptible to government corruptions [[NotSoDifferent not unlike the ones created by pure-blood crony-ism and nepotism]]. Even those who are open-minded might assume all pure-bloods are Death Eaters when they are briefed about the latter. The resulting anti-pure-blood prejudice by the Guards, alongside Muggle corruption would be excellent recruiting sergeants for the Death Eaters.
to:
*** Recruiting Muggle soldiers or police who are related to Muggleborns into a 'Hogwarts Guard' military/security unit would render the unit susceptible to government corruptions [[NotSoDifferent not unlike the ones created by pure-blood crony-ism and nepotism]]. Even those who are open-minded might assume all pure-bloods are Death Eaters when they are briefed about the latter. The resulting anti-pure-blood prejudice by the Guards, alongside Muggle corruption corruptions, would be excellent recruiting sergeants for the Death Eaters.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
*** Recruiting Muggle soldiers or police who are related to Muggleborns into a 'Hogwarts Guard' military/security unit would render the unit susceptible to government corruptions [[NotSoDifferent not unlike the ones created by pure-blood crony-ism and nepotism]]. Even those who are open-minded might assume all pure-bloods are Death Eaters when they are briefed about the latter. The resulting anti-pure-blood prejudice by the Guards, alongside Muggle corruption would be excellent recruiting sergeants for the Death Eaters.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
[[folder: An Unforgivable attempt]]
* Would you still be sent to Azkaban if you ''tried'' to cast one of the Unforgivables, but didn't succeed? We know that for the Killing Curse, you have to want it, and for Cruciatus, you have to mean it - what if something didn't really have the heart to do either of these, but tried one of them anyway? I don't doubt that they would be punished, but would it still be an instant one-way ticket?
[[/folder]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
* Honestly it seems like the primary reason for the Statute of Secrecy is probably because some Wizard or another noticed the Muggles had surpassed the Wizards in terms of destructive potential. Wizards sling spells that kill instantly without fail but the original books are set in the 90's meaning that in addition to two of the most brutal conflicts any living human of either world had ever seen the Wizarding world has witnessed the advent of nuclear weaponry. For possibly the first time in history Wizards are not only on the decline but at real risk of being wiped out both from the fallout of so many families being wiped away by the recent Wizard War but because if the Muggles found them there would be a lot of uncomfortable questions about why they were left out in the rain while the Wizards enjoyed the fruits of magic without sharing. A Wizard with a wand can kill one person at a time as fast as he can say ''avadacadavra'' but muggles have guns and atom bombs which should terrify any Wizard self aware enough to realize the implications. At least in theory guns would still work in the presence of wizards and magic, they're chemical reactions are not much different then a standard potion.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** The British Prime Minister explicitly forbade himself from ever telling anyone about the existence of wizards, for fear of being labeled insane. The only administrative decision he ever made regarding them (warning the Muggle populace about the escape of Sirius Black) could only feasibly be accomplished with help from the Ministry of Magic to fill in the holes. On top of that, there are other wizarding communities who remain completely separate from their host nations, like in America.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Urban legend
Changed line(s) 198 (click to see context) from:
* Okay, here's something that really bothers me. The wizarding world seems to have no semblance of a military. I mean, sure, there's the Aurors and Order of the Phoenix, but they seem more like police/intelligence, so there's really no military. Also, Rowling said herself that a human with a shotgun would win every time over a wizard with a wand. Doesn't this seem like it would put the "Muggle sympathizers" in the story at a distinct 'advantage' to Voldemort, or at least his cronies? Sure, fewer people in Britain have guns than in the US, but they're not impossible to get, killing curses could be defended against with simple riot shields[[note]]although a given riot shield would probably only work once[[/note]], etc. Also, considering that the wizarding world is run by the "Ministry of Magic," and assuming that all wizards are still loyal to Britain, wouldn't the fact that one of their ministers had been 'deposed' by some magic Hitler-wannabe set off a bunch of red flags for the British government? Forget Britain's allies turning a blind eye. The British Military could have, and should have, handled this instead of forcing it on a 17-year-old, even if he is a wizard.
to:
* Okay, here's something that really bothers me. The wizarding world seems to have no semblance of a military. I mean, sure, there's the Aurors and Order of the Phoenix, but they seem more like police/intelligence, so there's really no military. Also, Rowling said herself that a human with a shotgun would win every time over a wizard with a wand. Doesn't this seem like it would put the "Muggle sympathizers" in the story at a distinct 'advantage' to Voldemort, or at least his cronies? Sure, fewer people in Britain have guns than in the US, but they're not impossible to get, killing curses could be defended against with simple riot shields[[note]]although a given riot shield would probably only work once[[/note]], etc. Also, considering that the wizarding world is run by the "Ministry of Magic," and assuming that all wizards are still loyal to Britain, wouldn't the fact that one of their ministers had been 'deposed' by some magic Hitler-wannabe set off a bunch of red flags for the British government? Forget Britain's allies turning a blind eye. The British Military could have, and should have, handled this instead of forcing it on a 17-year-old, even if he is a wizard.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 55 (click to see context) from:
** I think the vast majority of them would be so awed by the fact they are ''learning actual factual magic'' that they wouldn't be much bothered by the lack of cell phones and internet access. And the few who would complain would be slapped down by the rest. "Dude, shut up! You keep complaining about your stupid cell phone and we're going to get thrown out of class ''and I don't want to miss the lesson on how to turn someone into a newt!'' So cut that shit out!"
to:
** I think the vast majority of them would be so awed by the fact they are ''learning actual factual magic'' that they wouldn't be much bothered by the lack of cell phones and internet access. And the few who would complain would be slapped down by the rest. "Dude, shut up! You keep complaining about your stupid cell phone and we're going to get thrown out of class ''and I don't want to miss the lesson on [[{{Film/MontyPythonAndTheHolyGrail}} how to turn someone into a newt!'' newt]]!'' So cut that shit out!"
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Question
Added DiffLines:
[[folder:Muggle Defence Against Wizards]]
If some Muggle politicians know of the existance of Wizards in their world, such as the Prime Minister of the UK,
then surely there should be somekind of private defence against wizards if a full blown war was to occur?
[[/folder]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 308 (click to see context) from:
to:
** It is certainly possible to erase someone's entire memories, as Lockhart was trying to do exactly that to Harry and Ron in Chamber of Secrets. Granted, the end result is less "model citizen" and more "Permanent resident of Janus Thickey Ward in St. Mungo's".
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** Alternatively, it may be that the Ministry does this out of an ulterior motive, which is to appease the Dementors. The Dementors just kind of "came with" Azkaban and the Ministry seems to have little to no actual control over them. It may be that keeping them fed with a steady supply of souls in form of condemned criminals is the only way that Fudge's Ministry can see to keep the Dementors from going on a feeding frenzy among the general population. Of course, the fact that Kingsley abolishes their use means that he presumably found a way to stop that from happening, but I can see a corrupt and feeble Ministry taking the easy way out in this situation.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Moving this from an entry on Cool But Inefficient
Changed line(s) 371 (click to see context) from:
[[folder: What happened to the death penalty?]]
to:
Added DiffLines:
[[folder:The Postal Service]]
* Given that most Wizards are capable of Apparating, possess cars such as the Knight Bus for those who can't, and possess the ability to carry large amounts of objects in a BagOfHolding, it often begs the question why they bother with the mess of using Owls to deliver their mail. Theoretically ''a single wizard'' could serve as the postman to the entire country. So, why not?
** Owls are implied to be capable of always finding the person they are supposed to give a letter to, and Apparating isn't depicted as something that is entirely pleasant for the user, so it may just be that its far more convenient for everyone involved to use owls.
[[/folder]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
*** In this case, "execution for perjury" is the equivalent of having a witness take an Unbreakable Vow (to not lie to the court), because apparently the effect of disobeying it is that you die.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 371 (click to see context) from:
* What made the Ministry decide that the Dementor's Kiss should be the "worse than life in prison" legal punishment? There's no mention anywhere of humans (or elves, goblins, centaurs, etc) receiving the death penalty (except for when Aurors were allowed to use lethal force in the first war, but that was a special case), but why not, when Wizarding Britain accepts the destruction of people's souls? Whatever your opinions on capital punishment, a quick death that lets the soul go on to whatever comes next in the Potterverse is infinitely more humane than letting the soul be eaten, digested, and destroyed utterly - why choose that rather than a quick Avada Kedavra? (Yes, I know Slughorn claims murder is the supreme act of evil, but that doesn't make sense when you can also feed people's souls to depression-demons. Death shouldn't be more taboo than that.)
to:
* What made the Ministry decide that the Dementor's Kiss should be the "worse than life in prison" legal punishment? There's no mention anywhere of humans (or elves, goblins, centaurs, etc) receiving the death penalty (except for when Aurors were allowed to use lethal force in the first war, but that was a special case), but why not, when Wizarding Britain accepts the destruction of people's souls? Whatever your opinions on capital punishment, a quick death that lets the soul go on to whatever comes next in the Potterverse is infinitely more humane than letting the soul be eaten, digested, and destroyed utterly - why choose that rather than a quick Avada Kedavra? ''Avada Kedavra''? (Yes, I know Slughorn claims murder is the supreme act of evil, but that doesn't make sense when you can also feed people's souls to depression-demons. Death shouldn't be more taboo than that.))
** There's an interesting theory that it's precisely ''because'' they know for a fact that the Afterlife is real, ''but not'' exactly what it's like. They can't know if the Afterlife has a Heaven/Hell, Divine Court system, or if it's just "everybody gets in and sort themselves out". Ergo, the wizards don't want to have to deal with a dead Dark Lord taking over the Afterlife and ruining it for ''them'' when their time comes, so instead they make sure there's nothing left of the criminal to Pass On.
** There's an interesting theory that it's precisely ''because'' they know for a fact that the Afterlife is real, ''but not'' exactly what it's like. They can't know if the Afterlife has a Heaven/Hell, Divine Court system, or if it's just "everybody gets in and sort themselves out". Ergo, the wizards don't want to have to deal with a dead Dark Lord taking over the Afterlife and ruining it for ''them'' when their time comes, so instead they make sure there's nothing left of the criminal to Pass On.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** Also we have similar things in real life. Lobotomy was used as a way to deal with criminals in the UK for decades long after death penaly was abolished and was seen as a more "humane" way to deal with them.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 371 (click to see context) from:
* What made the Ministry decide that the Dementor's Kiss should be the "worse than life in prison" legal punishment? There's no mention anywhere of humans (or elves, goblins, centaurs, etc) receiving the death penalty (except for when Aurors were allowed to use lethal force in the first war, but that was a special case), but why not, when Wizarding Britain accepts the destruction of people's souls? Whatever your opinions on capital punishment, a quick death that lets the soul go on to whatever comes next in the Potterverse is infinitely more humane than letting the soul be eaten, digested, and destroyed utterly - why choose that rather than a quick Avada Kedavra? (Yes, I know Slughorn claims murder is the supreme act of evil, but that doesn't make sense when you can also feed people's souls to depression-demons. Death shouldn't be more taboo than that.) [[/folder]]
to:
* What made the Ministry decide that the Dementor's Kiss should be the "worse than life in prison" legal punishment? There's no mention anywhere of humans (or elves, goblins, centaurs, etc) receiving the death penalty (except for when Aurors were allowed to use lethal force in the first war, but that was a special case), but why not, when Wizarding Britain accepts the destruction of people's souls? Whatever your opinions on capital punishment, a quick death that lets the soul go on to whatever comes next in the Potterverse is infinitely more humane than letting the soul be eaten, digested, and destroyed utterly - why choose that rather than a quick Avada Kedavra? (Yes, I know Slughorn claims murder is the supreme act of evil, but that doesn't make sense when you can also feed people's souls to depression-demons. Death shouldn't be more taboo than that.)
** The Ministry has been established as being incompetent at its best and horribly corrupt at its worst during Harry's time - maybe the Dementor's Kiss is their way of sort of brushing people they don't like under the rug, without having to outright kill them, in order to avoid bad publicity. (Since this troper has heard that the death penalty isn't generally accepted in Britain.) Also, is it mentioned how many people do receive the kiss? Sirius only did so because he was thought to be a madman who'd escaped from prison, and Barty Crouch was ''intentionally'' silenced by the Ministry so he wouldn't squeal to them about Voldemort. It could be that they don't use it often enough for there to be much of a public outcry.
[[/folder]]
** The Ministry has been established as being incompetent at its best and horribly corrupt at its worst during Harry's time - maybe the Dementor's Kiss is their way of sort of brushing people they don't like under the rug, without having to outright kill them, in order to avoid bad publicity. (Since this troper has heard that the death penalty isn't generally accepted in Britain.) Also, is it mentioned how many people do receive the kiss? Sirius only did so because he was thought to be a madman who'd escaped from prison, and Barty Crouch was ''intentionally'' silenced by the Ministry so he wouldn't squeal to them about Voldemort. It could be that they don't use it often enough for there to be much of a public outcry.
[[/folder]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 370 (click to see context) from:
[[What happened to the death penalty?]]
to:
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 340 (click to see context) from:
to:
*** She was the proximate cause of his death in what all witnesses would likely agree was a life-or-death fight, and Sirius was fighting her in defence of others - it could be manslaughter, but I think there's a reasonable case for the law to consider it murder.
Added DiffLines:
[[What happened to the death penalty?]]
* What made the Ministry decide that the Dementor's Kiss should be the "worse than life in prison" legal punishment? There's no mention anywhere of humans (or elves, goblins, centaurs, etc) receiving the death penalty (except for when Aurors were allowed to use lethal force in the first war, but that was a special case), but why not, when Wizarding Britain accepts the destruction of people's souls? Whatever your opinions on capital punishment, a quick death that lets the soul go on to whatever comes next in the Potterverse is infinitely more humane than letting the soul be eaten, digested, and destroyed utterly - why choose that rather than a quick Avada Kedavra? (Yes, I know Slughorn claims murder is the supreme act of evil, but that doesn't make sense when you can also feed people's souls to depression-demons. Death shouldn't be more taboo than that.) [[/folder]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 365 (click to see context) from:
* How come the imperius curse is outlawed but love potions are aren't? Especially considering they are the direct reason to the birth of Voldemort.
to:
* How come the imperius curse is outlawed but love potions are aren't? Especially considering they are the direct reason to the birth of Voldemort.
Changed line(s) 367 (click to see context) from:
[[/folder]]
to:
*** Speaking of intent, Romilda Vane clearly intended to commit DateRape. Judging from Ron's reaction to the spiked cookies that is a big deal.[[/folder]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 366 (click to see context) from:
** Probably intent. With the exception of Merope's potion, love potions seem to just cause a temporary inflatuation over someone, with no evidence given in-universe that the person would do something really serious like self-harm or having sex against their will, thus a love potion is the equivalent of a practical joke. Imperious on the other hand is a deliberate slavization of a person's will to the point that you can make him/her self-harm him/herself or his/hers love ones, or if you imperious a government official like a minister you can have an entire country in danger. Thus both the consequences and the intent are very grave. Merope's potion was exceptionally strong to the point that it practically had the same effects that the Imperious, only temporary, but we don't know if there are laws for this kind of potions, notice that Merope's action are taking in-universe with dismay, showing that there is moral objection over that kind of potions.
to:
** Probably intent. With the exception of Merope's potion, love potions seem to just cause a temporary inflatuation over someone, with no evidence given in-universe that the person would do something really serious like self-harm or having sex against their will, thus a love potion is the equivalent of a practical joke. Imperious on the other hand is a deliberate slavization enslaving of a person's will to the point that you can make him/her self-harm him/herself or his/hers love ones, or if you imperious a government official like a minister you can have an entire country in danger. Thus both the consequences and the intent are very grave. Merope's potion was exceptionally strong to the point that it practically had the same effects that the Imperious, only temporary, but we don't know if there are laws for this kind of potions, notice that Merope's action are taking in-universe with dismay, showing that there is moral objection over that kind of potions.
