History Headscratchers / HarryPotterAndTheGobletOfFire

30th Jun '16 5:43:44 AM FlashSteps
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** At this point in the series even Harry knows that Ron and Hermione fancy each other and he's blind to relationships and girls. Of course Molly knows, Hermione was living with them for a while that summer and she and Ron have the exact same dynamic that Molly and Arthur have. It's obvious to everyone who isn't blind due to shipping goggles. Hermione/Ron is one of those relationships where it's obvious to everyone but them

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** At this point in the series even Harry knows that Ron and Hermione fancy each other and he's blind to relationships and girls. Of course Molly knows, Hermione was living with them for a while that summer and she and Ron have the exact same dynamic that Molly and Arthur have. It's obvious to everyone who isn't blind due to shipping goggles. Hermione/Ron is one of those relationships where it's obvious to everyone but themthem.
30th Jun '16 5:40:43 AM FlashSteps
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** It's actually very simple if you connect the dots. Molly doesn't for a second believe that Hermione is using magic to make Harry her boyfriend. If she did then I doubt her reaction would simply be to send her smaller chocolate. Molly's not stupid, she doesn't believe that Hermione would do that but she might believe that Harry and Hermione are an actual couple. And after having known them for so many years she's likely aware of Ron's interest in Hermione, even if Ron himself is not, so having Harry and Hermione hook up would break his heart so she's not angry but also not too thrilled about it. Things get cleared up when Harry states specifically that he and Hermione are not a couple. So she knew not to believe Rita but didn't think Rita would completely make something like that up out of nothing as she merely just twists facts and exagerates.

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** It's actually very simple if you connect the dots. Molly doesn't for a second believe that Hermione is using magic to make Harry her boyfriend. If she did then I doubt her reaction would simply be to send her smaller chocolate. Molly's not stupid, she doesn't believe that Hermione would do that but she might believe that Harry and Hermione are an actual couple. And after having known them for so many years she's likely aware of Ron's interest in Hermione, even if Ron himself is not, so having Harry and Hermione hook up would break his heart so she's not angry but also not too thrilled about it. Things get cleared up when Harry states specifically that he and Hermione are not a couple. So she knew not to believe Rita but didn't think Rita would completely make something like that up out of nothing as she merely just twists facts and exagerates.exaggerates.
30th Jun '16 5:37:32 AM FlashSteps
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* What is with Molly Weasley's inconsistent opinion of Rita Skeeter? After the World Cup, Mrs. Weasley agrees with everyone else that Rita Skeeter is the worst kind of "journalist," one that spreads sensationalist lies to get more readers and is not to be believed. After Rita's article about the Triwizard Champions (the colorful life story of Harry) we hear from Charlie that Mrs. Weasley was quite upset when she heard that Harry still cries over his parents. After Rita's article about the supposed love geometry between Hermione, Harry, and Krum, Mrs. Weasley sends Hermione an insultingly small Easter Egg. When Mrs. Weasley and Bill arrive at Hogwarts to cheer for Harry in the third task, Amos Diggory gives Harry a bunch of shit over the colorful life story article and Mrs. Weasley snaps at him that he should know better than to believe anything Rita Skeeter says. At dinner, Mrs. Weasley treats Hermione coldly until Harry explains to her that Hermione was never his girlfriend and that Rita Skeeter was making up more lies (you know, like what Mrs. Weasley was just telling Mr. Diggory). So over the course of the book, Mrs. Weasley's opinion of Rita Skeeter goes from Disbelief to belief, then more belief, then back to disbelief, right back to belief, then finally settles on disbelief. [[FlatWhat What]]

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* What is with Molly Weasley's inconsistent opinion of Rita Skeeter? After the World Cup, Mrs. Weasley agrees with everyone else that Rita Skeeter is the worst kind of "journalist," one that spreads sensationalist lies to get more readers and is not to be believed. After Rita's article about the Triwizard Champions (the colorful life story of Harry) we hear from Charlie that Mrs. Weasley was quite upset when she heard that Harry still cries over his parents. After Rita's article about the supposed love geometry between Hermione, Harry, and Krum, Mrs. Weasley sends Hermione an insultingly small Easter Egg. When Mrs. Weasley and Bill arrive at Hogwarts to cheer for Harry in the third task, Amos Diggory gives Harry a bunch of shit over the colorful life story article and Mrs. Weasley snaps at him that he should know better than to believe anything Rita Skeeter says. At dinner, Mrs. Weasley treats Hermione coldly until Harry explains to her that Hermione was never his girlfriend and that Rita Skeeter was making up more lies (you know, like what Mrs. Weasley was just telling Mr. Diggory). So over the course of the book, Mrs. Weasley's opinion of Rita Skeeter goes from Disbelief to belief, then more belief, then back to disbelief, right back to belief, then finally settles on disbelief. [[FlatWhat What]]What.]]
30th Jun '16 5:32:30 AM FlashSteps
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** If the wrong champion wins and ends up being transported to the graveyard, the solution is sample - if Voldemort is really set on using Harry as his means of resurrection, as opposed to either of the other three champions who could conceivably count as his enemies, then he could just have Pettigrew kill Cedric, as well as Viktor and Fleur, if they come along, sending the Portkey back into the maze each time until Harry finally manages to find it.

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** If the wrong champion wins and ends up being transported to the graveyard, the solution is sample simple - if Voldemort is really set on using Harry as his means of resurrection, as opposed to either of the other three champions who could conceivably count as his enemies, then he could just have Pettigrew kill Cedric, as well as Viktor and Fleur, if they come along, sending the Portkey back into the maze each time until Harry finally manages to find it.
30th Jun '16 5:25:00 AM FlashSteps
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** Nope. Cedric never got even close to the Cup on his own. After they blast the mega-spider, they just stand there, urging each other to go for it, until Harry suggests they take it together. So Crouch could have standed there, wand aimed at Cedric, ready to knock him out the moment he goes for the Cup alone. But when they went for it together, and Cedric even helped the limping Harry along, it was clear he'd made up his mind, so Crouch didn't feel the need to interfere. And he couldn't have just kidnapped the kid earlier, because Harry supposedly was under DD's constant eye, unlike, naturally, when he was in that dangerous labyrinth, during the final stage of the Tournament in which his participation was orchestrated by an unkown party, so whatever their inention was, this would be their last chance to acieve it... [[SarcasmMode Nah, why would DD want to keep an eye on him THERE?]] God, I love these self-sustaining plot holes.

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** Nope. Cedric never got even close to the Cup on his own. After they blast the mega-spider, they just stand there, urging each other to go for it, until Harry suggests they take it together. So Crouch could have standed there, wand aimed at Cedric, ready to knock him out the moment he goes for the Cup alone. But when they went for it together, and Cedric even helped the limping Harry along, it was clear he'd made up his mind, so Crouch didn't feel the need to interfere. And he couldn't have just kidnapped the kid earlier, because Harry supposedly was under DD's constant eye, unlike, naturally, when he was in that dangerous labyrinth, during the final stage of the Tournament in which his participation was orchestrated by an unkown unknown party, so whatever their inention intention was, this would be their last chance to acieve achieve it... [[SarcasmMode Nah, why would DD want to keep an eye on him THERE?]] God, I love these self-sustaining plot holes.
30th Jun '16 5:15:30 AM FlashSteps
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** Erm... this was already explained in the books, through Voldemort's and Crouch Jr's confession. This was the timeline of events: 1) Wormtail reaches Albania, where he accidentally meets Bertha Jorkins; 2) He uses the ''Imperius'' on her to bring her to Voldemort, whom he suspects is in a certain forest; 3) Voldemort somehow manages to interrogate Bertha (probably having Wormtail use the Cruciatus on her) and when he gets what he wants, he has Wormtail kill Bertha; 4) Voldemort has Wormtail make the potion that creates the homunculi that stores what rests of his soul; 6) Both Voldemort and Wormtail come back to Britain, hiding at Riddle Manor; 7) When they are at Riddle Manor, they have that conversation about the plan that Frank Bryce snoops on (and Harry sees through his connection with Voldemort); 8) Wormtail and Voldemort go to the Crouch's house a few days after the World Cup, and Voldemort uses the Imperius on Crouch Sr, freeing Jr and forcing Sr to go on with his job as if there is nothing wrong; 9) Crouch Jr and Wormtail assault Moody's house the night before Hogwarts starts, taking him out and then, using Moody's ready supply of Polyjuice, Crouch turns into Moody and diffuses the situation thanks to Arthur Weasley's help; 10) Finally, although it takes him some time to do it, he puts everything into Moody's trunk (including Moody himself) and travels to Hogwarts.

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** Erm... this was already explained in the books, through Voldemort's and Crouch Jr's confession. This was the timeline of events: 1) Wormtail reaches Albania, where he accidentally meets Bertha Jorkins; 2) He uses the ''Imperius'' on her to bring her to Voldemort, whom he suspects is in a certain forest; 3) Voldemort somehow manages to interrogate Bertha (probably having Wormtail use the Cruciatus on her) and when he gets what he wants, he has Wormtail kill Bertha; 4) Voldemort has Wormtail make the potion that creates the homunculi that stores what rests of his soul; 6) Both Voldemort and Wormtail come back to Britain, hiding at Riddle Manor; 7) When they are at Riddle Manor, they have that conversation about the plan that Frank Bryce snoops on (and Harry sees through his connection with Voldemort); 8) Wormtail and Voldemort go to the Crouch's house a few days after the World Cup, and Voldemort uses the Imperius on Crouch Sr, freeing Jr and forcing Sr to go on with his job as if there is nothing wrong; 9) Crouch Jr and Wormtail assault Moody's house the night before Hogwarts starts, taking him out and then, using Moody's ready supply of Polyjuice, Crouch turns into Moody and diffuses defuses the situation thanks to Arthur Weasley's help; 10) Finally, although it takes him some time to do it, he puts everything into Moody's trunk (including Moody himself) and travels to Hogwarts.
30th Jun '16 5:03:20 AM FlashSteps
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** Hopefully this theory isn't too convoluted. Voldemort, despite gathering followers in his first reign of terror partially due to seeking to conquer death, wants his surprise return to be a revelation even to the [=DEs=], and obviously doesn't tell any of them about the Horcruxes. At the same time, as a SecretTestOfCharacter, he expects the most faithful of them to believe in his unholy second coming and seek him out to enable this. Unfortunately for him, the most loyal followers were locked in Azkaban for, ironically, torturing people for information as to his whereabouts. The less devout, such as Lucius and [=MacNair=], either didn't believe the rumours that his presence had been felt in Albania or were too fearful to seek him out after such a long period of time had passed. So, when he finally returns, he impresses the less faithful with his powers of resurrection, expresses his disappointment that none of them were his top servants, and inspires pure fear in them once more. This does rely on the idea in the above folder of Albania being a fallback location for all the [=DEs=] not being correct. Instead, Pettigrew might have followed the "trail of fear" via rats through Europe until finding Voldemort.

to:

** Hopefully this theory isn't too convoluted. Voldemort, despite gathering followers in his first reign of terror partially due to seeking to conquer death, wants his surprise return to be a revelation even to the [=DEs=], and obviously doesn't tell any of them about the Horcruxes. At the same time, as a SecretTestOfCharacter, he expects the most faithful of them to believe in his unholy second coming and seek him out to enable this. Unfortunately for him, the most loyal followers were locked in Azkaban for, ironically, torturing people for information as to his whereabouts. The less devout, such as Lucius and [=MacNair=], either didn't believe the rumours that his presence had been felt in Albania or were too fearful to seek him out after such a long period of time had passed. So, when he finally returns, he impresses the less faithful with his powers of resurrection, expresses his disappointment that none of them were his top servants, and inspires pure fear in them once more. This does rely on the idea in the above folder of Albania being a fallback location for all the [=DEs=] not being correct. Instead, Pettigrew might have followed the "trail of fear" via rats through Europe Europe, along with wizard rumours, until finding Voldemort.
30th Jun '16 5:00:46 AM FlashSteps
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* Upon returning into flesh, V activates Wormtail's Dark Mark, so that all the Death Eaters feel it and come to him. All of them feel it. Including Snape, who has or has not betrayed him, and Karkaroff, who's ''definitely'' betrayed him and might just decide that rather than escaping he'd better seek protection with DD. Not to mention, of course, that DD could've easily arranged the incarcerated DEs to be checked daily for the sign of reactivated Dark Mark. So, did V really not think about it? After all the extensive preparations and meticulous planning, that's just downright pathetic.

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* Upon returning into flesh, V activates Wormtail's Dark Mark, so that all the Death Eaters feel it and come to him. All of them feel it. Including Snape, who has or has not betrayed him, and Karkaroff, who's ''definitely'' betrayed him and might just decide that rather than escaping he'd better seek protection with DD. Not to mention, of course, that DD could've easily arranged the incarcerated DEs [=DEs=] to be checked daily for the sign of reactivated Dark Mark. So, did V really not think about it? After all the extensive preparations and meticulous planning, that's just downright pathetic.



** The marks had nothing to do with that. Pettegrew knew V fled to Albania, probably because it was a designated fallback location all DEs knew about, and he learned the exact place from local rats. Crouch didn't find V - it was the other way round. Regardless, V's "weak state" was that of an incorporeal shadow, not much you can do with that.

to:

** The marks had nothing to do with that. Pettegrew knew V fled to Albania, probably because it was a designated fallback location all DEs [=DEs=] knew about, and he learned the exact place from local rats. Crouch didn't find V - it was the other way round. Regardless, V's "weak state" was that of an incorporeal shadow, not much you can do with that.



** Hopefully this theory isn't too convoluted. Voldemort, despite gathering followers in his first reign of terror partially due to seeking to conquer death, wants his surprise return to be a revelation even to the [=DEs=], and obviously doesn't tell any of them about the Horcruxes. At the same time, as a SecretTestOfCharacter, he expects the most faithful of them to believe in his unholy second coming and seek him out to enable this. Unfortunately for him, the most loyal followers were locked in Azkaban for, ironically, torturing people for information as to his whereabouts. The less devout, such as Lucius and [=MacNair=], either didn't believe the rumours that his presence had been felt in Albania or were too fearful to seek him out after such a long period of time had passed. So, when he finally returns, he impresses the less faithful with his powers of resurrection, expresses his disappointment that none of them were his top servants, and inspires pure fear in them once more. This does rely on the idea in the above folder of Albania being a fallback location for all the [=DEs=] not being correct. Instead, Pettigrew might have followed the "trail of fear" via rats through Europe until finding Voldemort.



* Let's take another look at how Voldemort could possibly hatch this plan to kidnap Harry Potter. Barty Crouch escapes from his father's clutches roughly a week before school starts. In that short time, the certifiably insane Barty manages to make contact with a man Dumbledore has been unable to seek out for the past decade. They brew Polyjuice potion within that week (despite the recipe requiring a month) and proceed to kidnap Moody two days before school. The plan is for the nutjob to be permanently stationed at Hogwarts amongst dozens of staff members, including Dumbledore, who have fought by Moody's side during the last war in a tightly-knit Order. Peter Pettigrew is the only other one privy to this plan, but doesn't mention the Marauder's Map although he knows that Harry Potter has it and knows how to use it. The chance of being discovered rises with every passing day, but the kidnapping must occur at the end of the year. At no point did any of them stop and think, "Maybe there's an easier way to do this?"

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* Let's take another look at how Voldemort could possibly hatch this plan to kidnap Harry Potter. Barty Crouch escapes from his father's clutches roughly a week before school starts. In that short time, the certifiably insane Barty manages to make contact with a man Dumbledore has been unable to seek out for the past decade.decade and more. They brew Polyjuice potion within that week (despite the recipe requiring a month) and proceed to kidnap Moody two days before school. The plan is for the nutjob to be permanently stationed at Hogwarts amongst dozens of staff members, including Dumbledore, who have fought by Moody's side during the last war in a tightly-knit Order. Peter Pettigrew is the only other one privy to this plan, but doesn't mention the Marauder's Map although he knows that Harry Potter has it and knows how to use it. The chance of being discovered rises with every passing day, but the kidnapping must occur at the end of the year. At no point did any of them stop and think, "Maybe there's an easier way to do this?"
23rd Jun '16 1:41:10 PM FlashSteps
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[[folder:'''''BOOO!!!! WHERE'S OUR EXCITING TOURNAMENT?!?!?''''']]
* After the second task, the chieftainess of the merpeople needs to tell Dumbledore exactly what happened in the lake before the judges can decide how many points to give out. If nobody was able to see what was happening in the lake during the task, what the hell did everyone in the stands do for 1-2 hours? Just sit around and stare blankly at some murky water?
** Come to think of it, pretty much the same thing applies to the third task. If nobody outside the maze can see [[spoiler:Krum getting Imperius'd and then stunning Fleur and putting the Cruciatus curse on Cedric or the Triwizard Portcupkey whisking Harry and Cedric off somewhere,]] this seems to imply that nobody can see ''anything'' going on inside the maze... so what the hell did everyone do in the stands for 1-2 hours? Just sit around and stare blankly at some shrubs?
** Two theories: There could have been some kind of form of entertainment, like a song or a comedy show to entertain people who were waiting. Or maybe they could have just seen the bangs and the monsters on the outside and got talking to other people nearby. "Whoa Fred, did you just see that giant Spider?!"
** I brought this up with a friend of mine and he theorized some sort of magic Jumbotron. But then again, if this was possible, they wouldn't have needed the Merchieftainess's explanation about what happened underwater.
** Why do people sit and watch the finish line of a marathon? 99.99% of the competition is taking place well out of view. They want to be there when someone wins.
** Except that watching people merely running for several hours is boring. Now, people struggling through the giant maze of death is the whole different story. I see no reason why everybody wouldn't want to see what's happening inside.
** Why do people sit and watch the finish line of a marathon? Because the other 99.99% of it is on TV.
** Furthermore, even if you use the marathon comparison to try and explain why a bunch of wizard adolescents don't want to see an exciting display of magical skill, how do you justify the fact that the ''judges'' also cannot see what's happening inside the lake/maze? The audience of a marathon may only watch the finish line, but the officials have to watch the ''whole thing''.
** Seconded. If, for example, Krum, had actually been a bad person, and had been smart enough to use Stunning plus Obliviate, or Stunning plus 'throwing them to the monsters' instead of Unforgivables, how would anyone have caught it? Or, interesting question, do we know such things ''aren't'' allowed? Maybe the maze wasn't supposed to be 'a maze with dangerous creatures in it', maybe it was supposed to be 'a wizard duel through a maze with dangerous creatures in it'? (Although presumably the Unforgivables would still be illegal.) And Harry and Cedric (and maybe the others too) just missed the memo.
[[/folder]]



** 1) What was the rush? No, the portkey wouldn't be risky - removing the wards form the school would be, especially when your arch-enemy is on the move and there could be an enemy agent inside the school. 2) *Sigh* use it ''how''?! Send the body back? Then it would return him back to the labyrinth or it makes no sense. Go to Hogwarts to kill DD? Simply makes no sense. But fine, remove the Cup, whatever. "...no need to..." *Sigh* I feel like there's some rule I'm not aware of, that forbids the characters to plan their actions in advance and use precautions, even if it would take them one second to use. I mean, he spends ''a year'' on that plan, he stakes everything he has on it, and if the kid escapes, he's screwed. He also plans to release the kid and have that stupid fight with him. And you're telling me, he'd just leave a mean to escape lie there? '''B'''arely '''S'''sensible. "...why all the drama..." what drama? He's yelling at his men to stop the kid, because, well, he's running away. That's normal, especially when everything has gone to hell, you don't understand what's going on, and don't know what to expect next. And yet he doesn't mention the Cup at all. Because he doesn't know about it.

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** 1) What was the rush? No, the portkey wouldn't be risky - removing the wards form from the school would be, especially when your arch-enemy is on the move and there could be an enemy agent inside the school. 2) *Sigh* use it ''how''?! Send the body back? Then it would return him back to the labyrinth or it makes no sense. Go to Hogwarts to kill DD? Simply makes no sense. But fine, remove the Cup, whatever. "...no need to..." *Sigh* I feel like there's some rule I'm not aware of, that forbids the characters to plan their actions in advance and use precautions, even if it would take them one second to use. I mean, he spends ''a year'' on that plan, he stakes everything he has on it, and if the kid escapes, he's screwed. He also plans to release the kid and have that stupid fight with him. And you're telling me, he'd just leave a mean to escape lie there? '''B'''arely '''S'''sensible. "...why all the drama..." what drama? He's yelling at his men to stop the kid, because, well, he's running away. That's normal, especially when everything has gone to hell, you don't understand what's going on, and don't know what to expect next. And yet he doesn't mention the Cup at all. Because he doesn't know about it.



[[folder:'''''BOOO!!!! WHERE'S OUR EXCITING TOURNAMENT?!?!?''''']]
* After the second task, the chieftainess of the merpeople needs to tell Dumbledore exactly what happened in the lake before the judges can decide how many points to give out. If nobody was able to see what was happening in the lake during the task, what the hell did everyone in the stands do for 1-2 hours? Just sit around and stare blankly at some murky water?
** Come to think of it, pretty much the same thing applies to the third task. If nobody outside the maze can see [[spoiler:Krum getting Imperius'd and then stunning Fleur and putting the Cruciatus curse on Cedric or the Triwizard Portcupkey whisking Harry and Cedric off somewhere,]] this seems to imply that nobody can see ''anything'' going on inside the maze... so what the hell did everyone do in the stands for 1-2 hours? Just sit around and stare blankly at some shrubs?
** Two theories: There could have been some kind of form of entertainment, like a song or a comedy show to entertain people who were waiting. Or maybe they could have just seen the bangs and the monsters on the outside and got talking to other people nearby. "Whoa Fred, did you just see that giant Spider?!"
** I brought this up with a friend of mine and he theorized some sort of magic Jumbotron. But then again, if this was possible, they wouldn't have needed the Merchieftainess's explanation about what happened underwater.
** Why do people sit and watch the finish line of a marathon? 99.99% of the competition is taking place well out of view. They want to be there when someone wins.
** Except that watching people merely running for several hours is boring. Now, people struggling through the giant maze of death is the whole different story. I see no reason why everybody wouldn't want to see what's happening inside.
** Why do people sit and watch the finish line of a marathon? Because the other 99.99% of it is on TV.
** Furthermore, even if you use the marathon comparison to try and explain why a bunch of wizard adolescents don't want to see an exciting display of magical skill, how do you justify the fact that the ''judges'' also cannot see what's happening inside the lake/maze? The audience of a marathon may only watch the finish line, but the officials have to watch the ''whole thing''.
** Seconded. If, for example, Krum, had actually been a bad person, and had been smart enough to use Stunning plus Obliviate, or Stunning plus 'throwing them to the monsters' instead of Unforgivables, how would anyone have caught it? Or, interesting question, do we know such things ''aren't'' allowed? Maybe the maze wasn't supposed to be 'a maze with dangerous creatures in it', maybe it was supposed to be 'a wizard duel through a maze with dangerous creatures in it'? (Although presumably the Unforgivables would still be illegal.) And Harry and Cedric (and maybe the others too) just missed the memo.
[[/folder]]




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** I took the interpretation that it wouldn't be enough ''just'' to have a seventh year drop your name in, but also for them to bamboozle the Goblet to accept an underage student in the first place. You wouldn't just bamboozle it and then tip off an underage student, because then they surely blab to their friends and the rumour spreads like wildfire that the Goblet's security has been compromised and the whole enterprise falls apart. Also, Fred and George probably wouldn't have helped underage students to do it, if only because their efforts were entirely centred on ensuring that they themselves were put forward as contenders, so they wouldn't have wanted to waste their opportunity.



** Lupin explained at some point that exposure to Dementors drains spellpower. Patronus, oviously, has to be cast quickly, before it happens. As for the first, again it's likely true, but personally I find the implications horrifying. Basically the whole wizarding world is held hostage by the Dementors and is forced to feed them its outcasts and, consequently, to make sure Azkhaban ''never'' runs out of inmates, lest the demons descend upon the helpless population. Which, by the way, begs the question what exactly happens after the end of "Deathly Hallows". There was some babbling in the Wiki that the Ministery no longer employs Dementors, but does this mean that the Dementors are romaing wild? How the hell can "everything be good" in this case? I feels strong sense of InferredHolocaust.

to:

** Lupin explained at some point that exposure to Dementors drains spellpower. Patronus, oviously, obviously, has to be cast quickly, before it happens. As for the first, again it's likely true, but personally I find the implications horrifying. Basically the whole wizarding world is held hostage by the Dementors and is forced to feed them its outcasts and, consequently, to make sure Azkhaban ''never'' runs out of inmates, lest the demons descend upon the helpless population. Which, by the way, begs the question what exactly happens after the end of "Deathly Hallows". There was some babbling in the Wiki that the Ministery no longer employs Dementors, but does this mean that the Dementors are romaing wild? How the hell can "everything be good" in this case? I feels strong sense of InferredHolocaust.



** In terms of "the entire wizard population being completely evil" - there are major problems with the way we treat prisoners in the real world. Without wanting to write an essay about that, suffice to say that there are a lot of ethical dilemmas faced in trying to balance securing dangerous people while respecting the human rights of those people, and many people in the real world have serious ethical issues with the way we resolve those issues in practice. Dumbledore is against the use of the dementors here, and implies in his conversation with Fudge that there are many others who dislike the use of dementors in Azkaban. (Granted, he only brings up the practical concern of their inevitable turn to supporting Voldemort again, but it's not hard to imagine that he and people like McGonagall have a problem with the ethical side of things too, given their reaction to the use of dementors in "Prisoner of Azkaban" and in this book) So that's how they "live with themselves". Plus, there are loads of systemic problems in the wizarding world (much like the real world) that run through the books - racism, classism, awful treatment of "part-humans". Part of the point of the books is that "good" and "evil" aren't as simple as "Bad people do bad things, good people do good things, the end"; part of the point of the ending of this book is that the ostensible good guys, like Fudge, can also do awful things for selfish reasons. So you may find it vile that the wizarding population of Britain prefers security over human rights, and opts for a prison management strategy that effectively tortures the prisoners in exchange for being virtually inescapable (as long as the Dementors are kept satisfied), but I don't see how it's a headscratcher. Wizard Britain has done something pretty awful. It ends up backfiring spectacularly. The smartest of the good guys didn't like it while it was happening and warned against doing it. That's a pretty standard fictional setup.

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** In terms of "the entire wizard population being completely evil" - there are major problems with the way we treat prisoners in the real world. Without wanting to write an essay about that, suffice to say that there are a lot of ethical dilemmas faced in trying to balance securing dangerous people while respecting the human rights of those people, and many people in the real world have serious ethical issues with the way we resolve those issues in practice. Dumbledore is against the use of the dementors here, and implies in his conversation with Fudge that there are many others who dislike the use of dementors in Azkaban. (Granted, he only brings up the practical concern of their inevitable turn to supporting Voldemort again, but it's not hard to imagine that he and people like McGonagall [=McGonagall=] have a problem with the ethical side of things too, given their reaction to the use of dementors in "Prisoner of Azkaban" and in this book) So that's how they "live with themselves". Plus, there are loads of systemic problems in the wizarding world (much like the real world) that run through the books - racism, classism, awful treatment of "part-humans". Part of the point of the books is that "good" and "evil" aren't as simple as "Bad people do bad things, good people do good things, the end"; part of the point of the ending of this book is that the ostensible good guys, like Fudge, can also do awful things for selfish reasons. So you may find it vile that the wizarding population of Britain prefers security over human rights, and opts for a prison management strategy that effectively tortures the prisoners in exchange for being virtually inescapable (as long as the Dementors are kept satisfied), but I don't see how it's a headscratcher. Wizard Britain has done something pretty awful. It ends up backfiring spectacularly. The smartest of the good guys didn't like it while it was happening and warned against doing it. That's a pretty standard fictional setup.



** OP: No, the chief question is what the hell was Crouch doing there in the first place? Again, in the book it was perfectly clear - he'd still lived with his father by that point, and their house-elf'd convinced Crauch Sr. to take Barty out for a walk. But in the movie Barty ''had already joined V by that point'' (we see him in Harry's dream in the beginning). I guess V could've sent him to spy on Harry at the Quidditch Cup, but surely he wouldn't have been there in his own, presumably-dead-in-Azkhaban, image, right?

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** OP: No, the chief question is what the hell was Crouch doing there in the first place? Again, in the book it was perfectly clear - he'd still lived with his father by that point, and their house-elf'd convinced Crauch Crouch Sr. to take Barty out for a walk. But in the movie Barty ''had already joined V by that point'' (we see him in Harry's dream in the beginning). I guess V could've sent him to spy on Harry at the Quidditch Cup, but surely he wouldn't have been there in his own, presumably-dead-in-Azkhaban, image, right?



** No, he wouldn't. If he had no way to deal with the dragon or underwater, then he simply ''wouldn't have tried''. He would've gone before the judges and said: "Sorry, I've researched as hard as I could, and I still have no idea how to do it, which shouldn't surprise anyone, since this shit is two years ahead of my level. So you might just as well give me all zeroes, and be done with it." And it would not have mattered in the slightest, because he would still have to take part in the third task - he just would've entered the last, which, if you think of it, would actually favor Crauch's plan, since he'd have more time to dispose of the other champions and remove the obstacles.

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** No, he wouldn't. If he had no way to deal with the dragon or underwater, then he simply ''wouldn't have tried''. He would've gone before the judges and said: "Sorry, I've researched as hard as I could, and I still have no idea how to do it, which shouldn't surprise anyone, since this shit is two years ahead of my level. So you might just as well give me all zeroes, and be done with it." And it would not have mattered in the slightest, because he would still have to take part in the third task - he just would've entered the last, which, if you think of it, would actually favor Crauch's Crouch's plan, since he'd have more time to dispose of the other champions and remove the obstacles.



* Mad-Eye himself tells Harry that the trace means if he sneezes, the Ministry will know who wipes his nose. Even assuming a bit of colourful exaggeration, this implies that the Trace tells the Ministry the source of magic around an underaged wizard, which makes sense, since they would need to know if the magic came from the underage wizard. Given that there is no statement that the Trace is either dormant or unmonitored during the school year, it's safe to assume that neither is the case, and in fact it would be reasonable to assume that it ''does'' function and ''is'' monitored, as there's every possibility that an underaged wizard would use an unforgiveable curse in a fit of anger or desperation. All that said, why did no one from the ministry notice that trace was reporting Barty Crouch Jr using the unforgivable curses in a classroom? We already know form the marauder's map that flawless pinpoint accuracy and identification of disguised targets--even those disguisd with magic--are entirely within the realm of possibility. If anyone were paying attention, and the Ministry cares at all about the safety of children, at the very least this would have merited an investigation.

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* Mad-Eye himself tells Harry that the trace means if he sneezes, the Ministry will know who wipes his nose. Even assuming a bit of colourful exaggeration, this implies that the Trace tells the Ministry the source of magic around an underaged wizard, which makes sense, since they would need to know if the magic came from the underage wizard. Given that there is no statement that the Trace is either dormant or unmonitored during the school year, it's safe to assume that neither is the case, and in fact it would be reasonable to assume that it ''does'' function and ''is'' monitored, as there's every possibility that an underaged wizard would use an unforgiveable curse in a fit of anger or desperation. All that said, why did no one from the ministry notice that trace was reporting Barty Crouch Jr using the unforgivable curses in a classroom? We already know form from the marauder's map that flawless pinpoint accuracy and identification of disguised targets--even those disguisd with magic--are entirely within the realm of possibility. If anyone were paying attention, and the Ministry cares at all about the safety of children, at the very least this would have merited an investigation.
22nd Jun '16 3:33:54 AM FlashSteps
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** That's it exactly. Here in the real world, defending yourself with lethal force can be tolerated in situations where it really is your only option other than letting yourself be killed/horribly injured. Wizards, on the other hand, have many completely nonlethal options they can use to defend themselves just as effectively without causing any permanent harm (or at least not killing them, at any rate). Another thing to keep in mind about Avada Kedavra is that one of the requirements to casting it is that you explicitly and sincerely want your target to die. Even if you used it while trying to defend yourself form a dark wizard, the fact that you used it shows that your primary goal was more killing your opponent than saving yourself.

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** That's it exactly. Here in the real world, defending yourself with lethal force can be tolerated in situations where it really is your only option other than letting yourself be killed/horribly injured. Wizards, on the other hand, have many completely nonlethal options they can use to defend themselves just as effectively without causing any permanent harm (or at least not killing them, at any rate). Another thing to keep in mind about Avada Kedavra is that one of the requirements to casting it is that you explicitly and sincerely want your target to die. Even if you used it while trying to defend yourself form from a dark wizard, the fact that you used it shows that your primary goal was more killing your opponent than saving yourself.



** So, when the kids were infiltrating the Slyth dorm in "Secrets" they didn't take larger doses... because?

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** So, when the kids were infiltrating the Slyth dorm in "Secrets" [=CoS=] they didn't take larger doses... because?



* Okay, why the ''hell'' didn't Dumbledore pull Harry -- no, not Harry, ''everybody'' -- from the 3rd task? There were some seriously fishy things happening -- the significance of which not fully realized at that point, of course, but enough to make an administrator wary enough, don't you think? Harry was having strong visions of his nemesis, visions which Dumbledore obviously found suspect. Disappearances were happening the way they did when the 1st war began over a decade ago. And they ''still didn't know'' who had put Harry's name in the Goblet. To paraphrase [=McGonagall=]'s quote from the 4th film, the hell with the Tournament, and the rules! What would have happened if they halted the 3rd task, really? An unstoppable force would reach in to push them into the hedge? Can you imagine how an institution like Hogwarts would react under a potential bomb threat? If it were the Muggle world, ''somebody'' would've sued the school's ass after ''that'' little incident, I'm just sayin'.

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* Okay, why the ''hell'' didn't Dumbledore pull Harry -- no, not Harry, ''everybody'' -- from the 3rd task? There were some seriously fishy things happening -- the significance of which not fully realized at that point, of course, but enough to make an administrator wary enough, don't you think? Harry was having strong visions of his nemesis, visions which Dumbledore obviously found suspect. Disappearances were happening the way they did when the 1st war began over a decade two decades ago. And they ''still didn't know'' who had put Harry's name in the Goblet. To paraphrase [=McGonagall=]'s quote from the 4th film, the hell with the Tournament, and the rules! What would have happened if they halted the 3rd task, really? An unstoppable force would reach in to push them into the hedge? Can you imagine how an institution like Hogwarts would react under a potential bomb threat? If it were the Muggle world, ''somebody'' would've sued the school's ass after ''that'' little incident, I'm just sayin'.



** This Troper studied basic genetics for school, and has spent a year overthinking this, only to come to one conclusion: "It's magic, stop questioning it before your Muggle brain melts." (This is also applicable when talking about conservation of matter to do with Transfiguration, and pretty much everything else in HP - it's magic, that's the point.)

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** This Troper I studied basic genetics for school, and has have spent a year overthinking this, only to come to one conclusion: "It's magic, stop questioning it before your Muggle brain melts." (This is also applicable when talking about conservation of matter to do with Transfiguration, and pretty much everything else in HP - it's magic, that's the point.)



** This troper was always under the impression that squib refers only to muggles born of pure blood wizards. Word of God states the Gilderoy Lockhart, a halfblood (witch mother, muggle father) has two elder muggle sisters, indicating that they are not called squibs. It is never mentioned that they are half sisters. Pureblooded wizards are mentioned to be incredibly inbred and the genetic mutation of a squib becomes more common down the road. Those squibs have children who have children who eventually produce a muggleborn wizard. It is not impossible that two muggles could produce more than one wizard child. Although it is unlikely it is not an impossible thing. In fact if both the of Colin and Dennis Creevey's parents had a squib ancestor then producing two muggleborn children seems pretty likely. But if only one parent had a squib ancestor then it seems more likely that not all their children would be muggleborns. Who knows maybe if the Evans had more children they'd have had another wizard. Maybe if the Grangers had another child it may have been a wizard or a muggle.

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** This troper I was always under the impression that squib refers only to muggles born of pure blood wizards. Word of God states the Gilderoy Lockhart, a halfblood (witch mother, muggle father) has two elder muggle sisters, indicating that they are not called squibs. It is never mentioned that they are half sisters. Pureblooded wizards are mentioned to be incredibly inbred and the genetic mutation of a squib becomes more common down the road. Those squibs have children who have children who eventually produce a muggleborn wizard. It is not impossible that two muggles could produce more than one wizard child. Although it is unlikely it is not an impossible thing. In fact if both the of Colin and Dennis Creevey's parents had a squib ancestor then producing two muggleborn children seems pretty likely. But if only one parent had a squib ancestor then it seems more likely that not all their children would be muggleborns. Who knows maybe if the Evans had more children they'd have had another wizard. Maybe if the Grangers had another child it may have been a wizard or a muggle.



** This troper must disagree with the above; in the next book, one of the death eaters uses 'Accio' on the Prophecy, but Harry manages to hold onto it. So couldn't it be the same here? That, indeed, Krum just had a really good grip on his wand?

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** This troper I must disagree with the above; in the next book, one of the death eaters uses 'Accio' on the Prophecy, but Harry manages to hold onto it. So couldn't it be the same here? That, indeed, Krum just had a really good grip on his wand?



** As this troper recalls, the scene went like this: Harry and Cedric arrive. Both are confused at it being a Portkey. They assume it's part of the challenge. Harry's scar starts hurting. Harry tells Cedric to go back (showing that no, they didn't assume it was a one-way Portkey), but Cedric refuses. Wormtail shows up and kills Cedric. It makes sense to this troper...

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** As this troper recalls, I recall, the scene went like this: Harry and Cedric arrive. Both are confused at it being a Portkey. They assume it's part of the challenge. Harry's scar starts hurting. Harry tells Cedric to go back (showing that no, they didn't assume it was a one-way Portkey), but Cedric refuses. Wormtail shows up and kills Cedric. It makes sense to this troper...me...



* Something else occurred to this troper about the Goblet of Fire. The entire purpose of the Goblet of Fire is to select the best possible contestants for the Triwizard Tournament. If the Goblet is in fact capable of picking the best possible students for the tournament (rather than just picking them at random), then no age line should be necessary. If the underage students haven't learned enough magic to safely compete in the tournament (the stated reason for the age requirement), then the Goblet should overlook them in favor of an older, more qualified student. If an underage student ''is'' selected, well then, clearly they're good enough, otherwise the Goblet wouldn't have picked them, would it?

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* Something else occurred to this troper me about the Goblet of Fire. The entire purpose of the Goblet of Fire is to select the best possible contestants for the Triwizard Tournament. If the Goblet is in fact capable of picking the best possible students for the tournament (rather than just picking them at random), then no age line should be necessary. If the underage students haven't learned enough magic to safely compete in the tournament (the stated reason for the age requirement), then the Goblet should overlook them in favor of an older, more qualified student. If an underage student ''is'' selected, well then, clearly they're good enough, otherwise the Goblet wouldn't have picked them, would it?



** This Troper would also like to point out that the headmistress at our school sometimes leaves for months on end, leaving our deputy headmaster in charge. And isn't it plausible that the kids often drop into the Hogwarts class to learn too? Just because it's not mentioned doesn't mean it's implausible.

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** This Troper I would also like to point out that the headmistress at our school sometimes leaves for months on end, leaving our deputy headmaster in charge. And isn't it plausible that the kids often drop into the Hogwarts class to learn too? Just because it's not mentioned doesn't mean it's implausible.



** This Troper's personal favorite answer: Molly is both The Chessmaster and a Shipper on Deck: she gave Ron hideous robes so no girl will go to the ball with him, forcing Hermione to take him out of pity. BOOM, Ron and Hermione are at the ball together.

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** This Troper's My personal favorite answer: Molly is both The Chessmaster and a Shipper on Deck: she gave Ron hideous robes so no girl will go to the ball with him, forcing Hermione to take him out of pity. BOOM, Ron and Hermione are at the ball together.
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