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** Since his actual goal of putting Aegon on the throne was cut, his, like many characters' stories in this season, is getting a bit weird. It's obvious that now that the writers have realized they can get away with these changes, they're rising into it without really paying attention to what they themselves were setting up.
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[[folder: Did... did the Sons of the Harpy just kill The Harpy?]]
*Hizdar is supposed to be the LEADER of the Sons of the Harpy, what was the purpose of having them kill him? His character has NO purpose because of this change. He's like Quentyn 2.0!
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* There is the fact that, until Jon discovers Longclaw's effectiveness in desperation, as far as anyone knows those daggers are the only weapon they have against the White Walkers. Jon may have been thinking they were in trouble should a walker come after them (as indeed the lieutenant does) before they get everyone on the boats. Could also be that while we now know Valyrian steel works too, that stuff isn't common and can't really be relied upon on any wide scale - they can't make new Valyrian steel and there doesn't seem to be more than a few [[AncestralWeapon Ancestral Weapons]] floating around - the dragon glass is all they have, and losing a whole bag full could well lead to a crippling shortage when the wall needs them.
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** I say we wait till the end of the season but my feeling is that Varys carefully manipulated events so that Jorah and Tyrion would run into each other. Remember Varys outed Jorah on behalf of Tywin and he just happened to wheel his cart in the general direction of Jorah Mormont...too coincidental by the Spider's standards. My real concern about Varys backing Dany is simply he said in Season 2 that he hates magic and doesn't want Stannis with Melisandre on the Iron Throne? Why does he think its a good idea for Lady with 3 Dragons to take over instead?
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[[folder: What what Varys' original plan?]]
* When Tyrion arrives to Dany's court, he finds himself in a very precarious position, even though he's not responsible for any of her troubles. And yet Varys, ''who's directly responsible for them'', planned to just waltz in and introduce himself? Wasn't he worried she'd execute him, in revenge if nothing else?
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** OP: I've heard a suggestion that the sailor's next trip was to Slaver's Bay (according to the map he showed to IM), and that's why the old man refused to insure him, because it's a very dangerous place nowdays. Normally, that would just increase the size of the insurance premium, but nevertheless, it's his right to decide it's bad business and refuse to do it.
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** Jon's also very shaken at that point and wasn't really thinking clearly. Edd even gives him a 'really?' look when Jon insists they go back for them.
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** That is likely what Tyrion had in mind. Daney's doesn't always have the best judgement however, and it's even worse when she feels she's been personally betrayed. She clearly wants him nowhere near her, not even seeing him in her army.
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** For one thing, despite all the terrible things he's done he's still a known quantity and someone she grew up with. Surrounded by enemies, he's the one person she could even CONSIDER trusting. She doesn't of course, and she clearly hates him, but given how he's kinda in the same situation as her she must be able to see the benefits of at least trying to recruit him to her side.
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* Obsidian isn't just lying around everywhere. Dragonstone and other volcanic areas are full of it, but Dragonstone is thousands of miles away. Jon can't count on them being able to secure a source of obsidian and getting it to the wall for weapon's production before the army of the dead launches an assault on the wall itself.
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** But the man was bringing the IM money, not demanding money! He was saying "take it" and that he returned from some past travels without a scratch, which is why I assume he wanted to insure his goods. It didn't look like he was there for his payout. What was the loophole?
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[[folder: Dragonglass Daggers]]
Why was Jon so determined to retrieve the daggers, when two episodes ago Samwell revealed dragonglass is actually Obsidian, which is apparently common enough knowledge, and is common in dragonstone. Now Jon wasn't there for that, but it stands to reason that Jon would be aware that there was obsidian/dragonglass laying around in the world, so why not cut their losses as soon as possible and resolve to have the watch produce obsidian arrow heads?
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Why was Jon so determined to retrieve the daggers, when two episodes ago Samwell revealed dragonglass is actually Obsidian, which is apparently common enough knowledge, and is common in dragonstone. Now Jon wasn't there for that, but it stands to reason that Jon would be aware that there was obsidian/dragonglass laying around in the world, so why not cut their losses as soon as possible and resolve to have the watch produce obsidian arrow heads?
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** The point is that the man's family is suffering and this Insurance Agent is using a loophole to not pay them back. He's bringing suffering on a poor family just for the sake of {{Greed}}. That supplicant comes to the Many-Faced God's Temple, hence Arya's first Assassination mission.
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[[folder: The Insurance Man]]
* The first time Arya meets him, he has a conversation with some other man. The man gives the IM some papers and some money, so I guess he wishes to insure his ship/cargo, saying the he has a good past record (I'm guessing, that part was not clear to me). And the IM refuses him anyway. Ok, first of all, why? What exactly was that he "Couldn't do"? Second, even if he does refuse to insure him, why is it treated like something underhanded? It's not like he cheated the man or his relatives out of the payout, like "Ja'qen" says - he just refused to do business with him, as is his right. And why was the bloke so desperate? Was that the only insurance broker in all the Braaovs?
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[[folder: The Insurance Man]]
* The first time Arya meets him, he has a conversation with some other man. The man gives the IM some papers and some money, so I guess he wishes to insure his ship/cargo, saying the he has a good past record (I'm guessing, that part was not clear to me). And the IM refuses him anyway. Ok, first of all, why? What exactly was that he "Couldn't do"? Second, even if he does refuse to insure him, why is it treated like something underhanded? It's not like he cheated the man or his relatives out of the payout, like "Ja'qen" says - he just refused to do business with him, as is his right. And why was the bloke so desperate? Was that the only insurance broker in all the Braaovs?
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** Their weakness to fire seems kind of relative. The wight that Jon slew in the first season, didn't drop fully until it was fully engulfed in fire; for a while it just combined all the worst parts of being a zombie and on fire. Unless a target is made of tinder, it's not that easy to get a good fire going and most of the wights have likely been slogging through wet snow for weeks now. The wights might not like being hit by flaming arrows or torches, but it's not a guarantee that they would be much more vulnerable than they are to conventional weapons. It is well-established that burning bodies prevents them from coming back, though whether this is a result of the bodies being reduced beyond usage or that the burning leaves them untouchable to White Walker magic is unclear. Regardless this isn't very helpful mid-battle. From a more logistical standpoint, the Wildling assault on the Wall involved setting up massive fires, presumably as a means of warding off wights and White Walkers during the siege. They may very well have, literally, burned through a great deal of their supply of oil and suitable wood then. It also pays to mention that the Wildlings are poorly organized at the best of times, and only barely tolerate one another. Between surprise, mass panic, and the fact that they were midway through an evacuation it's not that surprising they couldn't bring much fire to bear.
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** Their weakness to fire seems kind of relative. The wight that Jon slew in the first season, didn't drop fully until it was fully entirely engulfed in fire; for a while it just combined all the worst parts of being a zombie and on fire. Unless a target is made of tinder, it's not that easy to get a good fire going and most of the wights have likely been slogging through wet snow for weeks now. The wights might not like being hit by flaming arrows or torches, but it's not a guarantee that they would be much more vulnerable than they are to conventional weapons. It is well-established that burning bodies prevents them from coming back, though whether this is a result of the bodies being reduced beyond usage or that the burning leaves them untouchable to White Walker magic is unclear. Regardless this isn't very helpful mid-battle. From a more logistical standpoint, the Wildling assault on the Wall involved setting up massive fires, presumably as a means of warding off wights and White Walkers during the siege. They may very well have, literally, burned through a great deal of their supply of oil and suitable wood then. It also pays to mention that the Wildlings are poorly organized at the best of times, and only barely tolerate one another. Between surprise, mass panic, and the fact that they were midway through an evacuation it's not that surprising they couldn't bring much fire to bear.
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**Their weakness to fire seems kind of relative. The wight that Jon slew in the first season, didn't drop fully until it was fully engulfed in fire; for a while it just combined all the worst parts of being a zombie and on fire. Unless a target is made of tinder, it's not that easy to get a good fire going and most of the wights have likely been slogging through wet snow for weeks now. The wights might not like being hit by flaming arrows or torches, but it's not a guarantee that they would be much more vulnerable than they are to conventional weapons. It is well-established that burning bodies prevents them from coming back, though whether this is a result of the bodies being reduced beyond usage or that the burning leaves them untouchable to White Walker magic is unclear. Regardless this isn't very helpful mid-battle. From a more logistical standpoint, the Wildling assault on the Wall involved setting up massive fires, presumably as a means of warding off wights and White Walkers during the siege. They may very well have, literally, burned through a great deal of their supply of oil and suitable wood then. It also pays to mention that the Wildlings are poorly organized at the best of times, and only barely tolerate one another. Between surprise, mass panic, and the fact that they were midway through an evacuation it's not that surprising they couldn't bring much fire to bear.
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** Sorry, I was going off of the books where the giants seem to be barely sentient. It might be different in the show, I'll admit. Also why wouldn't the Wildlings be prepared to fight wights? They do it all the time. They're usually GenreSavvy enough to burn bodies and do other things to protect against wights. Why not this time?
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* While I do understand and agree with Tyrion's reasoning and support Daney's decision to remove Jorah from her side, couldn't the same effect be achieved by demoting him and having him serve her among the Second Sons? I don't think either of them expected an actual betrayal from Jorah.
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* While I do understand and agree with Tyrion's reasoning and support Daney's decision to remove Jorah from her side, couldn't the same effect be achieved by demoting him and having him serve her among the Second Sons? I don't think either of them expected an actual betrayal from Jorah.Jorah, and with Barristan dead and Grey Worm in recovery he was the best fighter they had. It's just wasteful.
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** Have you considered that maybe Wun Wun is actually a GeniusBruiser?
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** Lack of ''fire'' and lack of time, presumably. The White Walker army came ''very fast'', and people just flipped their shit.
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** Even in the books, the ability to say "no" is pretty limited. Sansa was forced to marry Tyrion in the books and she got no warning there (as opposed to the Show). If she said "no", the Lannisters would have killed her. Jeyne Poole likewise didn't have much options but to say "yes". However, Sansa-Jeyne in the Show (they are not really the same characters as the books anymore) was stupid in that she had the support of House Royce of Runestone. She could have stayed there in the Vale, especially since she had leverage over Littlefinger. She is the only reason why the Vale Lords support Baelish, they see him as Protector of Sansa and she becomes his trump card and only allibi. Its incredibly dumb and stupid for her to give up that advantage and suddenly go back to being under his thumb. The whole IdiotPlot of Season Five is so poorly written and contrived as to beggar disbelief.
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** I agree. They obviously wanted Jorah to be in the Fighting Pits but logically its contrived. She could have easily offered him a second chance to serve beneath Grey Guard and sleep in common quarters so that he can earn and prove her loyalty to her again.
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* Why is it, that in the entirety of the battle with the wights, the only person who thinks to use fire is [[DumbMuscle Wun Wun]]?! Heck the Wildlings definitely know that the wights are weak to fire, but not ONE of them think to use torches, flaming arrows, etc. against the wights. They wouldn't have won, but the body count could have been astronomically lower!
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* Why is it, that in the entirety of the battle with the wights, the only person who thinks to use fire is [[DumbMuscle Wun Wun]]?! Heck the Wildlings definitely know that the wights are weak to fire, but not ONE of them think to use torches, flaming arrows, etc. against the wights. They wouldn't have won, but the body count could have been astronomically lower!lower!
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[[folder: Use Fire You Morons!]]
* Why is it, that in the entirety of the battle with the wights, the only person who thinks to use fire is [[DumbMuscle Wun Wun]]?! Heck the Wildlings definitely know that the wights are weak to fire, but not ONE of them think to use torches, flaming arrows, etc. against the wights. They wouldn't have won, but the body count could have been astronomically lower!
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** Littlefinger gave Sansa to Roose Bolton as a gesture of good faith, so a legitimate Stark could rally the North. If Littlefinger's gift proved herself uncooperative, the Bolton/Vale alliance would be off, and Littlefinger limited in his options. He might no longer be in a position to get Sansa out of the Boltons' hands before Stannis and the Boltons clash. Sansa's willingness to go along with her marriage to Ramsay is proportionate to her trust in Petyr Bealish. And so far, Littlefinger has always managed to rescue Sansa and kill her worst enemies while doing so.
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[[Could Sansa have said 'no'?]]
Could Sansa have simply refused to marry Ramsay? The books mention that it is illegal for anyone to marry against their will, and Sansa surely has enough political standing to justifiably refuse. Granted, things wouldn't have been easy for her immediately afterward, but it's not like marriage to Ramsay would be a picnic, either. So could she simply have said no? The long pause after Roose asked her made me think that that was exactly what was going to happen.
Could Sansa have simply refused to marry Ramsay? The books mention that it is illegal for anyone to marry against their will, and Sansa surely has enough political standing to justifiably refuse. Granted, things wouldn't have been easy for her immediately afterward, but it's not like marriage to Ramsay would be a picnic, either. So could she simply have said no? The long pause after Roose asked her made me think that that was exactly what was going to happen.
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[[Could Sansa have said 'no'?]]
Could Sansa have simply refused to marry Ramsay? The books mention that it is illegal for anyone to marry against their will, and Sansa surely has enough political standing to justifiably refuse. Granted, things wouldn't have been easy for her immediately afterward, but it's not like marriage to Ramsay would be a picnic, either. So could she simply have said no? The long pause after Roose asked her made me think that that was exactly what was going to happen.
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** Was there any indication that she forgave him? She said she would gladly torture him the way Ramsey did. She doesn't kill him because it wouldn't benefit her in any way, while surely incuring Ramsey's wrath. As to why she believes he didn't kill Rickon and Brann, if she indeed does, perhaps it's because she ''wants'' her brothers to be alive, just to have some modicum of hope and comfort in her miserable life.
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[[folder: Jorah's second banishment]]
* While I do understand and agree with Tyrion's reasoning and support Daney's decision to remove Jorah from her side, couldn't the same effect be achieved by demoting him and having him serve her among the Second Sons? I don't think either of them expected an actual betrayal from Jorah.
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[[folder: Jorah's second banishment]]
* While I do understand and agree with Tyrion's reasoning and support Daney's decision to remove Jorah from her side, couldn't the same effect be achieved by demoting him and having him serve her among the Second Sons? I don't think either of them expected an actual betrayal from Jorah.
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%% Newest entries '''go on the bottom.''' to keep spoilers away from the initial edit box.
%% Please be mindful and don't add major book spoilers prematurely.
* Headscratchers/GameOfThrones -- For Series Wide HeadScratchers
* Headscratchers/GameOfThronesPreSeasonFive -- For Pre-Season Five
%% Please be mindful and don't add major book spoilers prematurely.
* Headscratchers/GameOfThrones -- For Series Wide HeadScratchers
* Headscratchers/GameOfThronesPreSeasonFive -- For Pre-Season Five
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[[folder: Why would Sansa Ever Forgive Theon?]]
* Aside from my general hatred for the plot, logically it makes zero sense whatsoever for Sansa to forgive Theon for any of his actions right upto Episode 8. Merging Sansa and Jeyne into a single storyline creates some really incoherent and illogical development. What reason has Theon given to Sansa that he is remotely remorseful or apologetic? Being tortured doesn't equal redemption or apology (as Book Theon's far better written arc in the books makes clear). Theon has done nothing so far to show that he's redeeming himself unlike Jaime with Brienne. Theon betrayed Robb Stark and even if he didn't kill Bran and Rickon Stark, by Faking their deaths he provided a major morale defeat and paved the road for Roose to betray him. Moreover, as soon as Sansa arrived in Winterfell, Theon did nothing. He did not warn her, he stood by in the side watching while Ramsay raped her, doing nothing to stop it and then willingly betrayed her only ally. Why the hell does Sansa not kill that pathetic meatsack the next time she gets him? Why should she believe him when he says he didn't kill Bran and Rickon and he's sorry if he's not doing ''anything'' at all. In the books it worked, because Theon has no personal connection to Jeyne and indeed disliked her in the pre-war days, seeing her as silly. Him going out of his way to help a girl who he knows is powerless and whose rescue will not give him any reward aside from doing the right thing is far more heroic than saving Sansa after she gets raped, beaten and her only ally killed. Even if he helps Sansa escape Winterfell, there's no way it will be anything more than InsaneForgiveness if Sansa lets him off the hook.
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* Aside from my general hatred for the plot, logically it makes zero sense whatsoever for Sansa to forgive Theon for any of his actions right upto Episode 8. Merging Sansa and Jeyne into a single storyline creates some really incoherent and illogical development. What reason has Theon given to Sansa that he is remotely remorseful or apologetic? Being tortured doesn't equal redemption or apology (as Book Theon's far better written arc in the books makes clear). Theon has done nothing so far to show that he's redeeming himself unlike Jaime with Brienne. Theon betrayed Robb Stark and even if he didn't kill Bran and Rickon Stark, by Faking their deaths he provided a major morale defeat and paved the road for Roose to betray him. Moreover, as soon as Sansa arrived in Winterfell, Theon did nothing. He did not warn her, he stood by in the side watching while Ramsay raped her, doing nothing to stop it and then willingly betrayed her only ally. Why the hell does Sansa not kill that pathetic meatsack the next time she gets him? Why should she believe him when he says he didn't kill Bran and Rickon and he's sorry if he's not doing ''anything'' at all. In the books it worked, because Theon has no personal connection to Jeyne and indeed disliked her in the pre-war days, seeing her as silly. Him going out of his way to help a girl who he knows is powerless and whose rescue will not give him any reward aside from doing the right thing is far more heroic than saving Sansa after she gets raped, beaten and her only ally killed. Even if he helps Sansa escape Winterfell, there's no way it will be anything more than InsaneForgiveness if Sansa lets him off the hook.
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