Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** Despite Gamlen's efforts to the contrary, its apparent that the Amells are still remembered fondly amongst the nobility of Kirkwall, which points as a reason why it was never removed.
Added DiffLines:
** Fereldans are regarded as stubborn and determined by Free-Marchers, something which Hawke is in abundance, as well as having the look of people unafraid to knuckle down and get their hands dirty when dealing with a challenge.
*** There is a reason they managed to defeat a Blight in less than a year, after all.
*** There is a reason they managed to defeat a Blight in less than a year, after all.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
***I thought the same though - your dad and your sister, as well as possibly you, are mages, and depending on your choices in the game, your lover might be as well. "Sounds like tyranny" seems a little mild when describing a system that would consign that many important people in your life to having their lips sewn shut, and possibly their eyes removed, as a matter of course. Tallis does get really angry at one point describing the injustices in human society, and it would have been nice had the developers allowed Hawke to respond in kind.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** Merrill does seem to recognize that Isabela likes her, from the Isabela/Merrill party banter that starts with Merrill asking Isabela "why do you even like me?" She reacts to Isabela in that chat just like she reacts to a female Hawke, ie, wondering how Isabela could ever find her interesting. Several cut scenes also imply that Merrill and Isabela hang out on their own. It might just be an oversight on the part of the writers, or, as someone says above, hyperbole based on Hawke being Merrill's closest friend.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 188 (click to see context) from:
** Its not clear what is actually something told by Varric and what is just part of the actual flashback narrative. We can safely assume that most of the inane stuff Varric either skipped, or is stuff that Varric glossed over. "During this time, Hawke spent a lot of time delivering stuff to people despite being Champion. I guess it was a habit he picked up. More importantly, we learned that...."
to:
** Its not clear what is actually something told by Varric and what is just part of the actual flashback narrative. We can safely assume that most of the inane stuff Varric either skipped, or is stuff that Varric glossed over. "During this time, Hawke spent a lot of time delivering stuff to people despite being Champion. I guess it was a habit he picked up. More importantly, we learned that...."" Then again, Cassandra might have been demanding details like that; interrogators - despite what Hollywood would have you believe - tend to spend long periods of time talking with their interviewees, putting together details and asking a lot of questions, sometimes about seemingly inane things. You never know when a detail rattling around in someone's head could be vital.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** Its not clear what is actually something told by Varric and what is just part of the actual flashback narrative. We can safely assume that most of the inane stuff Varric either skipped, or is stuff that Varric glossed over. "During this time, Hawke spent a lot of time delivering stuff to people despite being Champion. I guess it was a habit he picked up. More importantly, we learned that...."
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Varric's story priorities.]]
* If the whole game's narrative is Varric attempting to tell the real story of Hawke's involvement with the event that eventually lead to the Mage/Templar war to Cassandra, why does he leave in details about how Hawke did so many errands that have no relevance to the conflict? I know he likes to embellish Hawke's accomplishments, but Hawke delivering someone's mail or killing spiders in some random cave don't really add much to the supposed legend. Especially considering all the events relevant to the conflict that he just glosses over in the time-skips. Cassandra seems extremely patient given that he's supposed to be giving her something she could actually use.
[[folder: Varric's story priorities.]]
* If the whole game's narrative is Varric attempting to tell the real story of Hawke's involvement with the event that eventually lead to the Mage/Templar war to Cassandra, why does he leave in details about how Hawke did so many errands that have no relevance to the conflict? I know he likes to embellish Hawke's accomplishments, but Hawke delivering someone's mail or killing spiders in some random cave don't really add much to the supposed legend. Especially considering all the events relevant to the conflict that he just glosses over in the time-skips. Cassandra seems extremely patient given that he's supposed to be giving her something she could actually use.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Looking over this, I\'m honestly not seeing any Fridge Logic here, just a rant about Anders\' viewpoint and actions being incorrect. Take it to Analysis or maybe Fridge. Headscratchers isn\'t for ranting about a character being errenous, it is for logical holes in plot or gameplay.
Deleted line(s) 179 (click to see context) :
** More importantly, his plan was based on the assumption that he, and he alone, was the only person looking for reformation and that all mages will immediately agree to put aside all differences and join under his banner. The most recent novel shows that neither was true: several factions were working on their own plans for reformation [[spoiler: including the Divine ''herself'']], all of which were more likely to produce lasting change than one semi-abomination mage in the worse city in Thedas ranting at everyone he meets, and the mages (as well as templars) did ''not'' draw up lines based entirely on class. Anders didn't think of anything outside of Kirkwall, assuming "Mages, good/Templars, bad". His incredibly myopic thinking, caused by Vengeance or not, just proves that he was in no way qualified to actually aid the mages on anything close to a large scale. In the end, all he accomplished was making a really big noise that, at best, indirectly lead to the real war beginning. If he were actually dedicated to helping the mages, he'd have put his own feelings aside and tried see the bigger picture. He could have, at ''very'' least, asked the other mages what they wanted to do. Instead, he went ahead with a nonsensical plan based on incorrect assumptions and chided everyone for not bulling through a complex social issue as if templars were equal to darkspawn. Simply proclaiming that you're doing something for another group does not mean you're really acting for their benefit, even if you think you're being altruistic. In the end, he was a liability to the mages, not an aid.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** More importantly, his plan was based on the assumption that he, and he alone, was the only person looking for reformation and that all mages will immediately agree to put aside all differences and join under his banner. The most recent novel shows that neither was true: several factions were working on their own plans for reformation [[spoiler: including the Divine ''herself'']], all of which were more likely to produce lasting change than one semi-abomination mage in the worse city in Thedas ranting at everyone he meets, and the mages (as well as templars) did ''not'' draw up lines based entirely on class. Anders didn't think of anything outside of Kirkwall, assuming "Mages, good/Templars, bad". His incredibly myopic thinking, caused by Vengeance or not, just proves that he was in no way qualified to actually aid the mages on anything close to a large scale. In the end, all he accomplished was making a really big noise that, at best, indirectly lead to the real war beginning. If he were actually dedicated to helping the mages, he'd have put his own feelings aside and tried see the bigger picture. He could have, at ''very'' least, asked the other mages what they wanted to do. Instead, he went ahead with a nonsensical plan based on incorrect assumptions and chided everyone for not bulling through a complex social issue as if templars were equal to darkspawn. Simply proclaiming that you're doing something for another group does not mean you're really acting for their benefit, even if you think you're being altruistic. In the end, he was a liability to the mages, not an aid.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
*** I'm going to disagree with some of your points. What he did ''was'' selfish--he caused a war not everyone wants to be involved in because ''he'' really hates the Chantry and the Circle. Kirkwall is abnormal. The Circle of Ferelden was nothing like it--in fact, mages there probably had more opportunity than pretty much anyone outside of nobility. They had a warm place to sleep, good food, education, and friends with similar interests. He did it because he didn't want to sit on his laurels. His plan was haphazard and, well, selfish. It was about what he wanted for ''his'' goal.
Added DiffLines:
** Well, she needed to find someone with an invitation. It's worth noting that the Arishok respects you at least a little by the time you kill him--something the other qunari are aware of. Everyone else with a pass is Orlesian, which won't do. Hawke can ask why she's asking for help from him, and that's pretty much what she'll say.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
[[folder:Tallis' choice in allies]]
* Wouldn't it have done Tallis a bit better of finding someone to work with that may not potentially have a massive grudge against the Qunari? I understand that this really only applies if the DLC is played after Act II but it still seems that after that point Hawke and company would be a really risky choice, even if she managed to keep them in the dark throughout the entirety.
[[/folder]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** Also, keep in mind that a lot of Anders' irrationality comes from the fact that he is harboring Vengeance. Anders, quite literally, is not human anymore, and is in fact driven by irrational desires brought upon by an entity that is solely devoted to a single concept who does not understand concepts like "time" or being patient. Vengeance is not a rational entity, and it is actively taking control of Anders whenever it can.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
*** By this point, open warfare is raging on the streets of Kirkwall. Mages and Templars are killing each other, and mages are throwing around blood magic. At this point, one side or the other ''has'' to be destroyed to end the conflict. Either the mages or the Templars are going to be routed. Convincing Anders to side against the mages is convincing him to put down the very uprising he forced to happen - effectively forcing him to clean up the very mess he started.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** ''He never gathered allies, acquired resources, took input from other mages,'' - What, were you asleep when he explicitly mentioned that he's part of an underground organization that supports, protects, and smuggles mages out of Kirkwall?
** ''attempted to gain the public's favor'' - What did you think was in those manifestos he kept publishing? Cooking recipes? And the fact that he's got flash mobs who show up to support him ''and'' that he has Varric making sure thugs and criminals leave him alone indicates he's doing pretty well on the public support front.
** '' bothered to leave Kirkwall to get outside aid'' - If Anders leaves Kirkwall without Hawke backing him up, Templars will ensue.
** ''established escape routes or anything else that would give the other mages something remotely close to an advantage.'' - Again, see the ''entire underground mage-support organization'' he was part of.
** ''He didn't bother to even define what the end goal was beyond [[ConceptsAreCheap "freedom"]], as if screaming that word often enough would suddenly make everything better.'' Yes, he did. The end goal was to eliminate Chantry control over mages. A lofty, open-ended goal, but he had a defined goal.
** ''Not for one moment did he think of any steps in between [[StepThreeProfit "blow up Chantry" and "mage utopia"]].'' - Yes, he did. The step was ''total rebellion and war''.
** ''Regardless of how you feel about bombing the Chantry in and of itself, it can't be denied that it was probably the worst tactical decision possible for the well-being of the mages.'' Tactically? Maybe. The local Kirkwall Circle would be slaughtered. But strategically? No, that was brilliant. The objective was to start a war, and the destruction of the Chantry and the Templar slaughter of the Kirkwall Circle would do exactly that. It was exactly what he wanted.
** '' Why didn't anybody call Anders out on how idiotic his decision to declare himself "leader of the mage rebellion" was when he didn't think for one second about how to actually behave like a leader.'' - This would matter if at any point Anders ever actually declared himself a leader. An instigator? Yes. A part of the underground? Yes. A martyr? Absolutely. but never once did he consider himself a ''leader''.
** ''The sheer selfishness of his decision to throw a match onto a powder keg and damn every innocent mage in the city to a war they can't win sickened me to my very core.'' - What "selfishness"? He did what he did for all mages, everywhere, and fully expected to die for it. There was nothing even vaguely selfish about it. He made himself into a martyr, and deliberately instigated a war so that mages would fight for their freedoms.
** ''attempted to gain the public's favor'' - What did you think was in those manifestos he kept publishing? Cooking recipes? And the fact that he's got flash mobs who show up to support him ''and'' that he has Varric making sure thugs and criminals leave him alone indicates he's doing pretty well on the public support front.
** '' bothered to leave Kirkwall to get outside aid'' - If Anders leaves Kirkwall without Hawke backing him up, Templars will ensue.
** ''established escape routes or anything else that would give the other mages something remotely close to an advantage.'' - Again, see the ''entire underground mage-support organization'' he was part of.
** ''He didn't bother to even define what the end goal was beyond [[ConceptsAreCheap "freedom"]], as if screaming that word often enough would suddenly make everything better.'' Yes, he did. The end goal was to eliminate Chantry control over mages. A lofty, open-ended goal, but he had a defined goal.
** ''Not for one moment did he think of any steps in between [[StepThreeProfit "blow up Chantry" and "mage utopia"]].'' - Yes, he did. The step was ''total rebellion and war''.
** ''Regardless of how you feel about bombing the Chantry in and of itself, it can't be denied that it was probably the worst tactical decision possible for the well-being of the mages.'' Tactically? Maybe. The local Kirkwall Circle would be slaughtered. But strategically? No, that was brilliant. The objective was to start a war, and the destruction of the Chantry and the Templar slaughter of the Kirkwall Circle would do exactly that. It was exactly what he wanted.
** '' Why didn't anybody call Anders out on how idiotic his decision to declare himself "leader of the mage rebellion" was when he didn't think for one second about how to actually behave like a leader.'' - This would matter if at any point Anders ever actually declared himself a leader. An instigator? Yes. A part of the underground? Yes. A martyr? Absolutely. but never once did he consider himself a ''leader''.
** ''The sheer selfishness of his decision to throw a match onto a powder keg and damn every innocent mage in the city to a war they can't win sickened me to my very core.'' - What "selfishness"? He did what he did for all mages, everywhere, and fully expected to die for it. There was nothing even vaguely selfish about it. He made himself into a martyr, and deliberately instigated a war so that mages would fight for their freedoms.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** Actually, he does try some of those things--he ''was'' a part of an underground mage rebellion, and he ''was'' gathering allies. The public did start favoring the mages--remember the beginning of Act III? But Hawke never really gets involved because Anders deliberately won't involve him/her in the actual rebellion. But Meredith gets worse and the rebellion is all but destroyed over the course of the game. Blowing up the Chantry was his final, desperate act for action. In his mind, mages were going to stay oppressed unless something *big* happened. So he forced everyone's hand. Anders did not expect to live through bombing the Chantry. He never called himself the leader of the rebellion. He *wanted* to live, to a degree, but he also knew he wouldn't deserve it if he did. His plan hung on the crux of Meredith flipping shit and doing exactly what she had wanted to do--an Annulment. Because of that, rebellion was incited.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** While this is not that smart it is pretty true to life with radicals who want to bomb things, ever read up on the real bomb throwing anarchists of the 1870s through the 1930s.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** I'm still not clear how Anders is redeeming himself for his crime by killing all the mages who had nothing to do with it. I mean, ''he's'' the one that actually caused all of this, he didn't contact anybody in the Circle about it. Sure he did it in their name, but Orsino made it clear that the Circle most certainly did ''not'' approve of this act. I understand that that it would be a gut-wrenching experience for Anders, but it still seems irrational to punish the actual criminal by making him kill people you ''know'' are innocent.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 158 (click to see context) from:
** If you were playing a Hawke that could not kill Anders, but would have let another, can't you understand Sebastian's feelings? He doesn't want to kill a former companion and friend of Hawke, and disappoint the memory of Elthina--but he'd let ''you'' do it. To kill Anders, he'd have to go through Hawke, too. He probably doesn't want to hurt Hawke/Hawke's companions, and because he doesn't want to die himself. As for whether he plans on razing Kirkwall--those ''could'' just be empty words. After all, chances are Hawke and Anders will be skipping town, so what would be the point? It was probably just a hollow threat. Most of what we see of Sebastian establishes him as indecisive and hotheaded, and his actions reflected that. On TheDoylist side, Sebastian attacking would have made for a dead Sebastian, and they want him alive for future games/DLC.
to:
** If you were playing a Hawke that could not kill Anders, but would have let another, can't you understand Sebastian's feelings? He doesn't want to kill a former companion and friend of Hawke, and disappoint the memory of Elthina--but he'd let ''you'' do it. To kill Anders, he'd have to go through Hawke, too. He probably doesn't want to hurt Hawke/Hawke's companions, and because he doesn't want to die himself. As for whether he plans on razing Kirkwall--those ''could'' just be empty words. After all, chances are Hawke and Anders will be skipping town, so what would be the point? It was probably just a hollow threat. Most of what we see of Sebastian establishes him as indecisive and hotheaded, and his actions reflected that. On TheDoylist side, Sebastian attacking would have made for a dead Sebastian, and they want him alive for future games/DLC.
Changed line(s) 160 (click to see context) from:
[[/folder]]
to:
[[folder: Anders' Lack of Planning Skills]]
*Exactly how did Anders expect to accomplish his grand rebellion? He never gathered allies, acquired resources, took input from other mages, attempted to gain the public's favor, bothered to leave Kirkwall to get outside aid, established escape routes or anything else that would give the other mages something remotely close to an advantage. He didn't bother to even define what the end goal was beyond [[ConceptsAreCheap "freedom"]], as if screaming that word often enough would suddenly make everything better. Not for one moment did he think of any steps in between [[StepThreeProfit "blow up Chantry" and "mage utopia"]]. Regardless of how you feel about bombing the Chantry in and of itself, it can't be denied that it was probably the worst tactical decision possible for the well-being of the mages. Why didn't anybody call Anders out on how idiotic his decision to declare himself "leader of the mage rebellion" was when he didn't think for one second about how to actually behave like a leader. The sheer selfishness of his decision to throw a match onto a powder keg and damn every innocent mage in the city to a war they can't win sickened me to my very core.
[[/folder]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** Also, keep in mind that Isabella is actually an optional character, technically. It's very possible to not get her (I had to skip her quest due to a bug that prevented me from looting the correct item). I guess they could script that scene differently depending on if she was in your party, but that seems overly complicated. Doesn't really explain Varric, though.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** In this troper's playthrough, he specifically says that he doesn't want Hawke to kill him. So yeah, Sebastian does have basic self preservation instincts.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** If you were playing a Hawke that could not kill Anders, but would have let another, can't you understand Sebastian's feelings? He doesn't want to kill a former companion and friend of Hawke, and disappoint the memory of Elthina--but he'd let ''you'' do it. To kill Anders, he'd have to go through Hawke, too. He probably doesn't want to hurt Hawke/Hawke's companions, and because he doesn't want to die himself. As for whether he plans on razing Kirkwall--those ''could'' just be empty words. After all, chances are Hawke and Anders will be skipping town, so what would be the point? It was probably just a hollow threat. Most of what we see of Sebastian establishes him as indecisive and hotheaded, and his actions reflected that. On TheDoylist side, Sebastian attacking would have made for a dead Sebastian, and they want him alive for future games/DLC.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
[[folder: Why doesn't Sebastian try to kill Anders?]]
* Seriously, the guy is sitting right there! What's stopping him from shooting Anders in the back as he leaves or offering to take Hawke's murder-knife and do it himself? I had a friendmance with Anders in one playthtrough and was playing my Hawke as someone who couldn't bring herself to personally murder the man she loved, but was so angry at his betrayal she wouldn't have stopped anyone else from doing it. I was half-expecting Sebastian to offer to do it himself. But nope, Sebastian just whines and bitches about my Hawke's refusal to kill him and storms off, promising to come back with an army and possibly raze a city full of innocent people, an act that would arguably make him as bad as Anders, if not worse. He promises to make Anders face justice someday, why not do it when he's not even fighting back?
[[/folder]]
* Seriously, the guy is sitting right there! What's stopping him from shooting Anders in the back as he leaves or offering to take Hawke's murder-knife and do it himself? I had a friendmance with Anders in one playthtrough and was playing my Hawke as someone who couldn't bring herself to personally murder the man she loved, but was so angry at his betrayal she wouldn't have stopped anyone else from doing it. I was half-expecting Sebastian to offer to do it himself. But nope, Sebastian just whines and bitches about my Hawke's refusal to kill him and storms off, promising to come back with an army and possibly raze a city full of innocent people, an act that would arguably make him as bad as Anders, if not worse. He promises to make Anders face justice someday, why not do it when he's not even fighting back?
[[/folder]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
*** Quentin was definitely not raising the dead. He was using magic to preserve and animate a corpse that had no will or mind of its own - this is something we've seen plenty of times in the game, whenever anyone animates corpses using either magic or demons. Leandra was only able to survive and speak because of the magic Quentin was using to animate the body, and after he dies she follows suit.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
*** I interpreted what Quentin did more as keeping his victim alive through things that should kill them than actually raising the dead. That much should be possible in the setting, even if what he did was more extreme than anything else we've seen. Also, while it's possible that the cardinal rules are wrong, the "teleporting" mages are too common for this to be an explanation. The only possible violations of the rules we've heard of are ambiguous and portray the spell as incredibly difficult, but if so many random apostates could learn teleportation so easily then the Circle would have figured out that that rule is wrong by now.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** During one of the party conversations, Anders brings this exact issue up when [[spoiler:Tallis]] mentions the equality of the Qun. [[spoiler:She]] simply says that there isn't anywhere in Thedas where mages can be free.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
*** I know its kind of a nitpick I thought that it should be brought up if only because the way mages are treated is a pretty huge part of the games plot.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 149 (click to see context) from:
** Because it's not really relevant. Hawke does not engage Tallis in an argument of the minutae of Qunari society. Hawke listens to Tallis and expresses a general opinion: Qunari = good, Qunari = bad, don't care about Qunari at all. Any discussion on how the mages get a bad deal witht he Qunari will simply be rehashing the Qunari = bad opinion.
to:
** Because it's not really relevant. Hawke does not engage Tallis in an argument of the minutae of Qunari society. Hawke listens to Tallis and expresses a general opinion: Qunari = good, Qunari = bad, don't care about Qunari at all. Any discussion on how the mages get a bad deal witht he with the Qunari will simply be rehashing the Qunari = bad opinion.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** Because it's not really relevant. Hawke does not engage Tallis in an argument of the minutae of Qunari society. Hawke listens to Tallis and expresses a general opinion: Qunari = good, Qunari = bad, don't care about Qunari at all. Any discussion on how the mages get a bad deal witht he Qunari will simply be rehashing the Qunari = bad opinion.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Woops
Changed line(s) 148 (click to see context) from:
* So in mark of the Assassin it turns out [[spoiler: Tallis was a follower of the Qun]] I was wondering why you couldn't bring up the fact that the Qunari treat mages like shit when [[spoiler: she]] was trying to convince you of how good the Qun was. I havent played the DLC as a mage yet so maybe you can but this seems like an important thing to bring up since a good portion of the people Hawke is friends with/related to are mages not to mention Hawke could be a mage too.
to:
* So in mark of the Assassin it turns out [[spoiler: Tallis was a follower of the Qun]] I was wondering why you couldn't bring up the fact that the Qunari treat mages like shit when [[spoiler: she]] was trying to convince you of how good the Qun was. I havent played the DLC as a mage yet so maybe you can but this seems like an important thing to bring up since a good portion of the people Hawke is friends with/related to are mages not to mention Hawke could be a mage too.too.
[[/folder]]
[[/folder]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 146 (click to see context) from:
[[/folder]]
to:
[[folder: Qunari mages in Mark of the assassin]]
* So in mark of the Assassin it turns out [[spoiler: Tallis was a follower of the Qun]] I was wondering why you couldn't bring up the fact that the Qunari treat mages like shit when [[spoiler: she]] was trying to convince you of how good the Qun was. I havent played the DLC as a mage yet so maybe you can but this seems like an important thing to bring up since a good portion of the people Hawke is friends with/related to are mages not to mention Hawke could be a mage too.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
*** Then why doesn't it happen more often? If abominations above the Hunger level can use magic freely, why don't they?
