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** The Season 3 opener did it too. A crime at the Statue of Liberty=National Parks police jurisdiction.

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** The Season 3 4 opener did it too. A crime at the Statue of Liberty=National Parks police jurisdiction.

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** At least they did better with Mac. Although they still went slightly fast, it wasn't as bad. They did, though, miss a big opportunity to have the aphasia return during the crossover, since fear or anger can make it re-emerge. It was likely to avoid having to explain it to the CSI fans who didn't watch, but still...

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** At least they did better with Mac. Although they still went slightly fast, it wasn't as bad. They did, though, miss a big opportunity to have the aphasia return during the crossover, since fear or anger can make it re-emerge. It was likely to avoid having to explain it to the CSI ''Series/{{CSI}}'' fans who didn't watch, but still...



* If, as we learn in a flashback where Mac speaks with his father who is dying, Claire has relatives in New York, why does Mac never contact any of them...especially during 'Indelible'??
* Who sent Mac the flowers in the middle of season 8?

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** SoftWater
* If, as we learn in a flashback where Mac speaks with his father who is dying, Claire has relatives in New York, why does Mac never contact any of them...especially during 'Indelible'??
''Indelible''??
* Who sent Mac the flowers in the middle of season 8?episode 8.10, ''Clean Sweep''?
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* Who sent Mac the flowers in the middle of season 8?

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* The homicide motive from the episode "One Wedding and a Funeral"; [[labelnote: synopsis with unmarked spoilers]] the caterer offs the groom (who was also a friend/tormentor while they were growing up) when the groom calls him away from his child's birthday to change the catering menu the day before the wedding. A) The menu would have been finalized months earlier with a card inserted in the invitations so guests can decide what they want to eat, and B) Where's the bride in all of this; it's her wedding too? I can't see a bride, especially with the elaborate wedding that was planned, being out of the loop when it came to the menu (especially changes to it).[[/labelnote]]

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* The homicide motive from the episode "One 'One Wedding and a Funeral"; Funeral'; [[labelnote: synopsis with unmarked spoilers]] the caterer offs the groom (who was also a friend/tormentor while they were growing up) when the groom calls him away from his child's birthday to change the catering menu the day before the wedding. A) The menu would have been finalized months earlier with a card inserted in the invitations so guests can decide what they want to eat, and B) Where's the bride in all of this; it's her wedding too? I can't see a bride, especially with the elaborate wedding that was planned, being out of the loop when it came to the menu (especially changes to it).[[/labelnote]]


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* If, as we learn in a flashback where Mac speaks with his father who is dying, Claire has relatives in New York, why does Mac never contact any of them...especially during 'Indelible'??
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*** that's why she should have stuck with Adam

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*** that's That's why she should have stuck with AdamAdam.



* That Ancient Greek coin in ''Series/{{CSINY}}'' was found north of Nicosia- i.e. in Northern Cyprus. Why did Stella offer it back to the Greeks? As she's a Greek-American, I'd understand her not giving it to Northern Cyprus, but surely she could have gone to the Cypriot Consulate unless there is something in Greek antiquities law I'm missing.
** She only went to confirm its authenticity not return it. She only brought a picture and the Greek Consulate is more likely to have Greek history experts i.e. the one she was meeting.

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* That Ancient Greek coin in ''Series/{{CSINY}}'' was found north of Nicosia- Nicosia, i.e. in Northern Cyprus. Why did Stella offer it back to the Greeks? As she's a Greek-American, I'd understand her not giving it to Northern Cyprus, but surely she could have gone to the Cypriot Consulate unless there is something in Greek antiquities law I'm missing.
** She only went to confirm its authenticity not return it. She only brought a picture and the Greek Consulate is more likely to have Greek history experts experts, i.e. the one she was meeting.



** At least they dis better with Mac. Although they still went slightly fast,it wasn't as bad. They did,though,miss a big opportunity to have the aphasia return during the crossover,since fear or anger can make it re-emerge. It was likely to avoid having to explain it to the CSI fans who didn't watch, but still...
* The season two episode ''Heroes'' with the dead marine. Shouldn't that fall under NCIS jurisdiction?

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** At least they dis did better with Mac. Although they still went slightly fast,it fast, it wasn't as bad. They did,though,miss did, though, miss a big opportunity to have the aphasia return during the crossover,since crossover, since fear or anger can make it re-emerge. It was likely to avoid having to explain it to the CSI fans who didn't watch, but still...
* The season two episode ''Heroes'' with the dead marine.Marine. Shouldn't that fall under NCIS jurisdiction?



* The fact that Christine was sitting alone in her restaurant after closing, but hadn't locked the door up yet. Isn't that usually the first thing a business owner or manager does after close, especially in a big city like that? And Mac couldn't have called ahead and told her he was coming, to unlock the door, because she hadn't been answering his calls. It would have made it way too easy for the kidnapper let their help in to grab her if they were working late and knew she didn't always lock that door. She just better get Mac a key and lock the place after close, or she'll be lucky not to get into more trouble in there. (yes, it was probably just a writer oversight, but some of the fans took notice. All they really had to do was have Mac knock on the door to get her attention instead of just walking on in.).
* Mac is a pretty "By the Book" type - so why does he not mention his aphasia at the start of the last Season? Granted he doesn't often get into life or death situations, but if he did (and in CSI world, it's pretty likely) then his inability to say something more concisely than "He's hiding behind the... errmm, it's a sort of picture but in three dimensions, so you go that way and I'll go this side and catch him in the errmmm... you know where two people fire from two directions at somebody else? Yeah, one of them!" Mac's not letting on could potentially endanger lives, so concealing his disability (even if it is only temporary) is selfish at best and villainous at worst. I'm sure the NYPD would pension him off with full medical benefits (he was shot and nearly died in the line of duty and has multiple commendations).

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* The fact that Christine was sitting alone in her restaurant after closing, but hadn't locked the door up yet. Isn't that usually the first thing a business owner or manager does after close, especially in a big city like that? And Mac couldn't have called ahead and told her he was coming, to unlock the door, because she hadn't been answering his calls. It would have made it way too easy for the kidnapper let their help in to grab her if they were working late and knew she didn't always lock that door. She just better get Mac a key and lock the place after close, or she'll be lucky not to get into more trouble in there. (yes, (Yes, it was probably just a writer oversight, but some of the fans took notice. All they really had to do was have Mac knock on the door to get her attention instead of just walking on in.).
)
* Mac is a pretty "By the Book" type - so why does he not mention his aphasia at the start of the last Season? Granted he doesn't often get into life or death situations, but if he did (and in CSI world, it's pretty likely) likely), then his inability to say something more concisely than "He's hiding behind the... errmm, it's a sort of picture but in three dimensions, so you go that way and I'll go this side and catch him in the errmmm... you know where two people fire from two directions at somebody else? Yeah, one of them!" Mac's not letting on could potentially endanger lives, so concealing his disability (even if it is only temporary) is selfish at best and villainous at worst. I'm sure the NYPD would pension him off with full medical benefits (he was shot and nearly died in the line of duty and has multiple commendations).
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<<|ItJustBugsMe|>>
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* How exactly did Shane Casey manage to fall off a lighthouse and not even get hurt?
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* That Ancient Greek coin in ''CSINewYork'' was found north of Nicosia- i.e. in Northern Cyprus. Why did Stella offer it back to the Greeks? As she's a Greek-American, I'd understand her not giving it to Northern Cyprus, but surely she could have gone to the Cypriot Consulate unless there is something in Greek antiquities law I'm missing.
** She only went to confirm its authenticy not return it. She only brought a picture and the Greek Consulate is more likely to have Greek history experts i.e. the one she was meeting.

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* That Ancient Greek coin in ''CSINewYork'' ''Series/{{CSINY}}'' was found north of Nicosia- i.e. in Northern Cyprus. Why did Stella offer it back to the Greeks? As she's a Greek-American, I'd understand her not giving it to Northern Cyprus, but surely she could have gone to the Cypriot Consulate unless there is something in Greek antiquities law I'm missing.
** She only went to confirm its authenticy authenticity not return it. She only brought a picture and the Greek Consulate is more likely to have Greek history experts i.e. the one she was meeting.



<<|ItJustBugsMe|>>

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<<|ItJustBugsMe|>>

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** At least they dis better with Mac. Although they still went slightly fast,it wasn't as bad. They did,though,miss a big opportunity to have the aphasia return during the crossover,since fear or anger can make it re-emerge. It was likely to avoid having to explain it to the CSI fans who didn't watch, but still...



** I'm waiting to see what happens if they manage another season and show Mac's wedding...how much do we want to bet Stella's tied up majorly and can't get to town? *sigh*

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** I'm waiting to see what happens if they manage managed another season and show showed Mac's wedding...how much do we want to bet Stella's Stella would have been tied up majorly and can't get to town? *sigh*
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* The homicide motive from the episode "One Wedding and a Funeral"; [[hottip: synopsis with unmarked spoilers : the caterer offs the groom (who was also a friend/tormentor while they were growing up) when the groom calls him away from his child's birthday to change the catering menu the day before the wedding. A) The menu would have been finalized months earlier with a card inserted in the invitations so guests can decide what they want to eat, and B) Where's the bride in all of this; it's her wedding too? I can't see a bride, especially with the elaborate wedding that was planned, being out of the loop when it came to the menu (especially changes to it).]]

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* The homicide motive from the episode "One Wedding and a Funeral"; [[hottip: [[labelnote: synopsis with unmarked spoilers : spoilers]] the caterer offs the groom (who was also a friend/tormentor while they were growing up) when the groom calls him away from his child's birthday to change the catering menu the day before the wedding. A) The menu would have been finalized months earlier with a card inserted in the invitations so guests can decide what they want to eat, and B) Where's the bride in all of this; it's her wedding too? I can't see a bride, especially with the elaborate wedding that was planned, being out of the loop when it came to the menu (especially changes to it).]][[/labelnote]]
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* Mac is a pretty "By the Book" type - so why does he not mention his aphasia at the start of the last Season? Granted he doesn't often get into life or death situations, but if he did (and in CSI world, it's pretty likely) then his inability to say something more concisely than "He's hiding behind the... errmm, it's a sort of picture but in three dimensions, so you go that way and I'll go this side and catch him in the errmmm... you know where two people fire from two directions at somebody else? Yeah, one of them!" Mac's not letting on could potentially endanger lives, so concealing his disability (even if it is only temporary) is selfish at best and villainous at worst. I'm sure the NYPD would pension him off with full medical benefits (he was shot and nearly died in the line of duty and has multiple commendations).
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** Considering they gave similar short shrift to Flack's near-death subplot between Seasons 2 and 3, one should not really be that surprised.
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** The Season 3 opener did it too. A crime at the Statue of Liberty=National Parks police jurisdiction.


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** I'm waiting to see what happens if they manage another season and show Mac's wedding...how much do we want to bet Stella's tied up majorly and can't get to town? *sigh*
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* The fact that Christine was sitting alone in her restaurant after closing, but hadn't locked the door up yet. Isn't that usually the first thing a business owner or manager does after close, especially in a big city like that? And Mac couldn't have called ahead and told her he was coming, to unlock the door, because she hadn't been answering his calls. It would have made it way too easy for the kidnapper let their help in to grab her if they were working late and knew she didn't always lock that door. She just better get Mac a key and lock the place after close, or she'll be lucky not to get into more trouble in there. (yes, it was probably just a writer oversight, but some of the fans took notice).

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* The fact that Christine was sitting alone in her restaurant after closing, but hadn't locked the door up yet. Isn't that usually the first thing a business owner or manager does after close, especially in a big city like that? And Mac couldn't have called ahead and told her he was coming, to unlock the door, because she hadn't been answering his calls. It would have made it way too easy for the kidnapper let their help in to grab her if they were working late and knew she didn't always lock that door. She just better get Mac a key and lock the place after close, or she'll be lucky not to get into more trouble in there. (yes, it was probably just a writer oversight, but some of the fans took notice).notice. All they really had to do was have Mac knock on the door to get her attention instead of just walking on in.).
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None

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* The fact that Christine was sitting alone in her restaurant after closing, but hadn't locked the door up yet. Isn't that usually the first thing a business owner or manager does after close, especially in a big city like that? And Mac couldn't have called ahead and told her he was coming, to unlock the door, because she hadn't been answering his calls. It would have made it way too easy for the kidnapper let their help in to grab her if they were working late and knew she didn't always lock that door. She just better get Mac a key and lock the place after close, or she'll be lucky not to get into more trouble in there. (yes, it was probably just a writer oversight, but some of the fans took notice).
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* The homicide motive from the episode "One Wedding and a Funeral"; [[hottip: synopsis with unmarked spoilers: the [[TheDogBitesBack caterer]] offs the [[JerkAss groom]] (who was also a friend/tormentor while they were growing up) when the groom calls him away from his child's birthday to change the catering menu the day before the wedding. A) The menu would have been finalized months earlier with a card inserted in the invitations so guests can decide what they want to eat, and B) Where's the bride in all of this; it's her wedding too? I can't see a bride, especially with the elaborate wedding that was planned, being out of the loop when it came to the menu (especially changes to it).]]

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* The homicide motive from the episode "One Wedding and a Funeral"; [[hottip: synopsis with unmarked spoilers: spoilers : the [[TheDogBitesBack caterer]] caterer offs the [[JerkAss groom]] groom (who was also a friend/tormentor while they were growing up) when the groom calls him away from his child's birthday to change the catering menu the day before the wedding. A) The menu would have been finalized months earlier with a card inserted in the invitations so guests can decide what they want to eat, and B) Where's the bride in all of this; it's her wedding too? I can't see a bride, especially with the elaborate wedding that was planned, being out of the loop when it came to the menu (especially changes to it).]]
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** So is Mac. How many killers have ended up gunning for him personally now?

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** So is Mac. How many killers have ended up gunning for him personally now?now? Including literally so in one case.
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* The fact that at least one of Stella's parents was a Greek citizen, but she wasn't sent back to a Greek orphanage after they died. I suppose if one was American, she might have been able to stay...
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** ...[[{{NCIS}} And there]], we missed what would have been one hell of a {{Crossover}}.

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** ...[[{{NCIS}} [[Series/{{NCIS}} And there]], we missed what would have been one hell of a {{Crossover}}.
lu127 MOD

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I Got Better has been renamed to Unexplained Recovery.


** This troper thinks the writers really skimped on the whole [[IGotBetter Danny Got Better]] subplot (and that's EXACTLY what it is!). They went straight from the season 4 finale where Danny got shot to the season 5 opener where he finally starts moving his legs again. They should've at least PRETENDED there was a possibility Danny might not be able to walk again for more than one episode! What was the POINT of that subplot anyways??

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** This troper thinks the writers really skimped on the whole [[IGotBetter [[UnexplainedRecovery Danny Got Better]] subplot recovers subplot]] (and that's EXACTLY what it is!). They went straight from the season 4 finale where Danny got shot to the season 5 opener where he finally starts moving his legs again. They should've at least PRETENDED there was a possibility Danny might not be able to walk again for more than one episode! What was the POINT of that subplot anyways??

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* Is it just me, or is Stella Bonasera a psycho magnet?
** Yeah, what made me laugh was when she had the one night stand with the lab guy then knocked him back afterwards, presumably on the grounds that he wasn't worth bothering with as he wouldn't try to kill her.
*** that's why she should have stuck with Adam
** So is Mac. How many killers have ended up gunning for him personally now?
* The episode of NY where they used a ''portable MRI scanner'' which somehow doesn't require moving the body, to construct a 3D, fully interactive model of the body which the coroner uses to instruct Mac on how to retrieve a bullet, on the other hand...
* That Ancient Greek coin in ''CSINewYork'' was found north of Nicosia- i.e. in Northern Cyprus. Why did Stella offer it back to the Greeks? As she's a Greek-American, I'd understand her not giving it to Northern Cyprus, but surely she could have gone to the Cypriot Consulate unless there is something in Greek antiquities law I'm missing.
** She only went to confirm its authenticy not return it. She only brought a picture and the Greek Consulate is more likely to have Greek history experts i.e. the one she was meeting.
* Was anybody else bothered by the timeline early season 5? I mean, the storyline of Danny getting better was over several months, apparently, and the Compass Killer had only been killing for a month or two.
** This troper thinks the writers really skimped on the whole [[IGotBetter Danny Got Better]] subplot (and that's EXACTLY what it is!). They went straight from the season 4 finale where Danny got shot to the season 5 opener where he finally starts moving his legs again. They should've at least PRETENDED there was a possibility Danny might not be able to walk again for more than one episode! What was the POINT of that subplot anyways??
* The season two episode ''Heroes'' with the dead marine. Shouldn't that fall under NCIS jurisdiction?
** ...[[{{NCIS}} And there]], we missed what would have been one hell of a {{Crossover}}.
*** Though that would be one heck of a trip, seeing as that the NCIS guys operate in Washington D.C.
* This troper thinks that they could've shown a little more reaction from the characters about Stella leaving. Especially on Mac's part. She was only his closest friend. Don't you think he would've been at least a little bit sad that she's gone?
* The homicide motive from the episode "One Wedding and a Funeral"; [[hottip: synopsis with unmarked spoilers: the [[TheDogBitesBack caterer]] offs the [[JerkAss groom]] (who was also a friend/tormentor while they were growing up) when the groom calls him away from his child's birthday to change the catering menu the day before the wedding. A) The menu would have been finalized months earlier with a card inserted in the invitations so guests can decide what they want to eat, and B) Where's the bride in all of this; it's her wedding too? I can't see a bride, especially with the elaborate wedding that was planned, being out of the loop when it came to the menu (especially changes to it).]]
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* Is it just me, or is Stella Bonasera a psycho magnet?
** Yeah, what made me laugh was when she had the one night stand with the lab guy then knocked him back afterwards, presumably on the grounds that he wasn't worth bothering with as he wouldn't try to kill her.
*** that's why she should have stuck with Adam
** So is Mac. How many killers have ended up gunning for him personally now?
* The episode of NY where they used a ''portable MRI scanner'' which somehow doesn't require moving the body, to construct a 3D, fully interactive model of the body which the coroner uses to instruct Mac on how to retrieve a bullet, on the other hand...
* That Ancient Greek coin in ''CSINewYork'' was found north of Nicosia- i.e. in Northern Cyprus. Why did Stella offer it back to the Greeks? As she's a Greek-American, I'd understand her not giving it to Northern Cyprus, but surely she could have gone to the Cypriot Consulate unless there is something in Greek antiquities law I'm missing.
** She only went to confirm its authenticy not return it. She only brought a picture and the Greek Consulate is more likely to have Greek history experts i.e. the one she was meeting.
* Was anybody else bothered by the timeline early season 5? I mean, the storyline of Danny getting better was over several months, apparently, and the Compass Killer had only been killing for a month or two.
** This troper thinks the writers really skimped on the whole [[IGotBetter Danny Got Better]] subplot (and that's EXACTLY what it is!). They went straight from the season 4 finale where Danny got shot to the season 5 opener where he finally starts moving his legs again. They should've at least PRETENDED there was a possibility Danny might not be able to walk again for more than one episode! What was the POINT of that subplot anyways??
* The season two episode ''Heroes'' with the dead marine. Shouldn't that fall under NCIS jurisdiction?
** ...[[{{NCIS}} And there]], we missed what would have been one hell of a {{Crossover}}.
*** Though that would be one heck of a trip, seeing as that the NCIS guys operate in Washington D.C.
* This troper thinks that they could've shown a little more reaction from the characters about Stella leaving. Especially on Mac's part. She was only his closest friend. Don't you think he would've been at least a little bit sad that she's gone?
* The homicide motive from the episode "One Wedding and a Funeral"; [[hottip: synopsis with unmarked spoilers: the [[TheDogBitesBack caterer]] offs the [[JerkAss groom]] (who was also a friend/tormentor while they were growing up) when the groom calls him away from his child's birthday to change the catering menu the day before the wedding. A) The menu would have been finalized months earlier with a card inserted in the invitations so guests can decide what they want to eat, and B) Where's the bride in all of this; it's her wedding too? I can't see a bride, especially with the elaborate wedding that was planned, being out of the loop when it came to the menu (especially changes to it).]]
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* Is it just me, or is Stella Bonasera a psycho magnet?
** Yeah, what made me laugh was when she had the one night stand with the lab guy then knocked him back afterwards, presumably on the grounds that he wasn't worth bothering with as he wouldn't try to kill her.
*** that's why she should have stuck with Adam
** So is Mac. How many killers have ended up gunning for him personally now?
* The episode of NY where they used a ''portable MRI scanner'' which somehow doesn't require moving the body, to construct a 3D, fully interactive model of the body which the coroner uses to instruct Mac on how to retrieve a bullet, on the other hand...
* That Ancient Greek coin in ''CSINewYork'' was found north of Nicosia- i.e. in Northern Cyprus. Why did Stella offer it back to the Greeks? As she's a Greek-American, I'd understand her not giving it to Northern Cyprus, but surely she could have gone to the Cypriot Consulate unless there is something in Greek antiquities law I'm missing.
** She only went to confirm its authenticy not return it. She only brought a picture and the Greek Consulate is more likely to have Greek history experts i.e. the one she was meeting.
* Was anybody else bothered by the timeline early season 5? I mean, the storyline of Danny getting better was over several months, apparently, and the Compass Killer had only been killing for a month or two.
** This troper thinks the writers really skimped on the whole [[IGotBetter Danny Got Better]] subplot (and that's EXACTLY what it is!). They went straight from the season 4 finale where Danny got shot to the season 5 opener where he finally starts moving his legs again. They should've at least PRETENDED there was a possibility Danny might not be able to walk again for more than one episode! What was the POINT of that subplot anyways??
* The season two episode ''Heroes'' with the dead marine. Shouldn't that fall under NCIS jurisdiction?
** ...[[{{NCIS}} And there]], we missed what would have been one hell of a {{Crossover}}.
*** Though that would be one heck of a trip, seeing as that the NCIS guys operate in Washington D.C.
* This troper thinks that they could've shown a little more reaction from the characters about Stella leaving. Especially on Mac's part. She was only his closest friend. Don't you think he would've been at least a little bit sad that she's gone?
* The homicide motive from the episode "One Wedding and a Funeral"; [[hottip: synopsis with unmarked spoilers: the [[TheDogBitesBack caterer]] offs the [[JerkAss groom]] (who was also a friend/tormentor while they were growing up) when the groom calls him away from his child's birthday to change the catering menu the day before the wedding. A) The menu would have been finalized months earlier with a card inserted in the invitations so guests can decide what they want to eat, and B) Where's the bride in all of this; it's her wedding too? I can't see a bride, especially with the elaborate wedding that was planned, being out of the loop when it came to the menu (especially changes to it).]]
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<<|ItJustBugsMe|>>
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* The homicide motive from the episode "One Wedding and a Funeral"; [[hottip: synopsis with unmarked spoilers: the [[TheDogBitesBack caterer]] offs the [[JerkAss groom]] (who was also a friend/tormentor while they were growing up) when the groom calls him away from his child's birthday to change the catering menu the day before the wedding. A) The menu would have been finalized months earlier with a card inserted in the invitations so guests can decide what they want to eat, and B) Where's the bride in all of this; it's her wedding too? I can't see a bride, especially with the elaborate wedding that was planned, being out of the loop when it came to the menu (especially changes to it).]]
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Missed Moment Of Awesome (now Offscreen Moment Of Awesome) is not \"they SHOULD have done it, it\'d be cool.\" It\'s \"they DID do it, but offscreen where you couldn\'t see it\"


** ...[[{{NCIS}} And there]], [[MissedMomentOfAwesome we missed what would have been one hell of a]] {{Crossover}}.

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** ...[[{{NCIS}} And there]], [[MissedMomentOfAwesome we missed what would have been one hell of a]] a {{Crossover}}.
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** So is Mac. How many killers have ended up gunning for him personally now?
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*** Though that would be one heck of a trip, seeing as that the NCIS guys operate in Washington D.C.
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*This troper thinks that they could've shown a little more reaction from the characters about Stella leaving. Especially on Mac's part. She was only his closest friend. Don't you think he would've been at least a little bit sad that she's gone?
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  • NCIS jurisduction

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**...[[{{NCIS}} And there]], [[MissedMomentOfAwesome we missed what would have been one hell of a]] {{Crossover}}.
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* The season two episode ''Heroes'' with the dead marine. Shouldn't that fall under NCIS jurisdiction?

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* Was anybody else bothered by the timeline early season 5? I mean, the storyline of Danny getting better was over several months, apparently, and the Compass Killer had only been killing for a month or two.

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* Was anybody else bothered by the timeline early season 5? I mean, the storyline of Danny getting better was over several months, apparently, and the Compass Killer had only been killing for a month or two. two.
** This troper thinks the writers really skimped on the whole [[IGotBetter Danny Got Better]] subplot (and that's EXACTLY what it is!). They went straight from the season 4 finale where Danny got shot to the season 5 opener where he finally starts moving his legs again. They should've at least PRETENDED there was a possibility Danny might not be able to walk again for more than one episode! What was the POINT of that subplot anyways??

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