History Headscratchers / BioShockInfinite

21st Aug '16 11:21:37 PM Gogoroth
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21st Aug '16 11:20:28 PM Gogoroth
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[[folder:Quantum Superposition]]
*Elizabeth loses her powers because she went back to a universe where she died. But the Luteces died in the universe of Bioshock: Infinte. You can find a Voxophone of them confronting the man who did their funeral photos. So why didn't they get {{Brought Down to Normal}} then? Or any of the other times they manifested before Booker and Elizabeth?
21st Aug '16 10:48:52 PM Gogoroth
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!!Burial at Sea

[[folder:''Burial at Sea'' makes the original game make no sense!]]
* If we're to believe the generally accepted explanation of what the ending of ''[=BioShock=] Infinite'' means, it is that Elizabeth, in drowning Booker [=DeWitt=] in the baptism pool before the choice between [=DeWitt's=] path and Comstock's is made, utterly obliterates every timeline which involves Booker [=DeWitt=] becoming Zachary Comstock by killing him at the very point where that choice is made. Thus, we are to believe, Comstock CANNOT exist anywhere in any universe as Booker can never become him, found Columbia, rain holy fire on the world etc. But ''Burial at Sea'' quite clearly proves that to be horseshit, because it now turns out that far from preventing any Comstock from ever existing, he still does in at least some timelines, and Elizabeth (presumably the last one left in the BS:I ending) has to roam around the multiverse to get revenge on his various incarnations individually. WHAT. THE. FUCK. You can either take this one of two ways: either Elizabeth's timeline-reality-warping at the end of BS:I was never going to destroy all the Comstocks, in which case there was no point drowning Booker at all other than RuleOfDrama (and this directly contradicts what Liz herself says about Comstock's still being alive in "a million million worlds" necessitating him being smothered in the crib), or the explanation given for what Elizabeth did makes absolutely no sense and therefore neither does the ending, even as a metaphor. Either way it somehow manages to RetCon ''in'' a plot hole, which seems at best deeply unsatisfying and at worst something that completely ruins the first game entirely...
** It's possible that drowning Booker only destroyed Comstock in the worlds where Elizabeth existed. Anna was killed as an infant in Burial!Comstock's universe, thus leading to his guilt and absconding to Rapture. Elizabeth, and by extension Columbia, could not have happened in that universe because Anna died -- therefore, in that universe Booker was not drowned because Elizabeth did not exist to drown him. Alpha!Elizabeth, fresh from the events of Infinite, is coming to fix that error by killing that version of Comstock. It's also possible that by going into another universe, Comstock saved himself from the universes resetting so that he always drowned, and again Alpha!Elizabeth is coming to fix that error. Either way, the DLC is not over yet. All of this will probably be explained come Episode Two...
** Another possibility is that this DLC actually takes place before Comstock is erased from the timeline, or perhaps concurrently. Once the Siphon is destroyed, Elizabeth gains total control over time and space. She could have potentially spent millennia wandering around the multiverse before returning to Booker and helping him destroy Comstock and from his perspective it would have seemed completely sequitur. It does raise the question of why she bothered killing Comstock if she's planning to erase him from existence later, but it could be that killing him was not her ultimate goal in that timeline. Instead she was merely using him to find Sally, and once they did she pulled a YouHaveOutlivedYourUsefulness on him.
** But in how the Lutece twins explain time, there is no such thing as BEFORE Comstock being erased, Comstock is erased, will be erased, has been erased. All time is simultaneous. The only explanation is that indeed, ''[=BioShock=]'''s ending is BS, or rather Elizabeth and Booker have no idea what they were doing. They thought they erased the timeline, but in fact, it was all futile, because there are always constants, and introducing new constants only introduces new timelines.
** I figured it was a Comstock that escaped the event that ended all his counterparts. If you look at Alpha?Elizabeth as she was begging Comstock to let go of Anna, she is still wearing the clothes she had on in Colombia. In the end of the main game, the Elizabeths that drown Alpha!Booker are not her. It can be figured that it was at this moment she left Alpha!Booker to go and try and get Comstock to reconsider in this universe, maybe as a way to alter the infinite timelines without killing him, this being her first try to alter timelines with her abilities, she fails...badly. This Comstock then has the Luteces transport him to the BAS!Rapture where he forgets his past, his mind create memories as to why he is in Rapture and he becomes Booker!Comstock, but this saves him. As he made the journey to a universe where Booker never existed or was still alive elsewhere, before Alpha!Booker erased the Comstock timelines. He saved himself, unwittingly, from never existing. The point, as I understood, of the entire DLC was Alpha!Elizabeth trying to see if Booker!Comstock had truly changed into a Booker, or if deep down he was still Comstock. This is why she set up events so that Booker!Comstock's rescue of Sally would mirror Comstock' stealing Dead!Elizabeth. She was giving him a second chance and once again he failed, showing that in the end, he was still Comstock. She then watched him die to "erase" him, one less Comstock to harm others.
** He tried to rescue a little girl from a life of being a genetic abomination, he didn't even want to use the heat up the furnace trick, ''and Elizabeth is judging as an asshole deserving to die''. What. I think Liz, godlike or not, is tottaly blinded by her hatred for Comstock, and that she is trying to pidgeonholed him as an evil bastard, no matter what.
** Well... dude did decapitate a baby.
** With an infinite amount of parallel universes it's perfectly possible that there's at least one if not countless where Booker refuses the baptism but due to who knows what factors becomes Comstock anyway, as well as Bookers who take the baptism but for whatever reason avoid becoming a power-hungry religious zealot. The drowning only prevents the Comstocks that result from the baptism, it doesn't stop the ones that happen due to other circumstances.
** The answer appears obvious that Comstock's cross-universe trip to Rapture delinked him somewhat from the timeline (like Elizabeth and the Lucetes, but to a lesser degree), protecting him from the trans-dimensional Comstockicide. That caused Elizabeth to go back on a more personal level.
** it is possible that a booker has a second thought about rejecting babtism and goes back a a later time. this creates a third variation of himself the indecisive!comstock. creating a world paralel to the columbias but a half second to late. since this multiverse runs on voteordie karma indecisive!comstock is given the harshest punishment to live and die as a failure, Compare cocksureamericanazisantaclause!Comsock who gets the martyr death he actually wanted and dies believing everything will happn as he envisions, or the fate of booker not only is rewarded with redemption but enlightment. in the end indecisive!comstock is a benign loose end that some elizibeth decided needed to be tied up in an overly complicated manner, as most revenge plots do, setting in motion consequences that would probably happen anyway


to:

!!Burial at Sea

[[folder:''Burial at Sea'' makes the original game make no sense!]]

[[folder:Comstock's Voice]]
* If we're to believe the generally accepted explanation of what the ending of ''[=BioShock=] Infinite'' means, it is that Elizabeth, in drowning Comstock and Booker [=DeWitt=] in are the baptism pool before same person, and they have different voices because Comstock is the choice between [=DeWitt's=] path and older version of Booker. But why is Comstock's is made, utterly obliterates every timeline which involves Booker [=DeWitt=] becoming Zachary voice higher-pitched than Booker's when people's voices get lower as they age?
**
Comstock by killing him at isn't older; they're the very point where that choice is made. Thus, we are to believe, same age. Comstock CANNOT exist anywhere in any universe as Booker can never become him, found Columbia, rain holy fire on the world etc. But ''Burial at Sea'' quite clearly proves that to be horseshit, just appears older because it now turns out that far from preventing any Comstock from ever existing, he still does in at least some timelines, and Elizabeth (presumably the last one left in the BS:I ending) has to roam around the multiverse to get revenge on his various incarnations individually. WHAT. THE. FUCK. You can either take this one of two ways: either Elizabeth's timeline-reality-warping at the end of BS:I was never going to destroy all the Comstocks, in which case there was no point drowning Booker at all other than RuleOfDrama (and this directly contradicts what Liz herself says about Comstock's still being alive in "a million million worlds" necessitating him being smothered in the crib), or the explanation given for what Elizabeth did makes absolutely no sense and therefore neither does the ending, even as a metaphor. Either way it somehow manages to RetCon ''in'' a plot hole, which seems at best deeply unsatisfying and at worst something that completely ruins the first game entirely...
** It's possible that drowning Booker only destroyed Comstock in the worlds where Elizabeth existed. Anna was killed as an infant in Burial!Comstock's universe, thus leading to his guilt and absconding to Rapture. Elizabeth, and by extension Columbia, could not have happened in that universe because Anna died -- therefore, in that universe Booker was not drowned because Elizabeth did not exist to drown him. Alpha!Elizabeth, fresh from the events of Infinite, is coming to fix that error by killing that version of Comstock. It's also possible that by going into another universe, Comstock saved himself from the universes resetting so that he always drowned, and again Alpha!Elizabeth is coming to fix that error. Either way, the DLC is not over yet. All of this will probably be explained come Episode Two...
** Another possibility is that this DLC actually takes place before Comstock is erased from the timeline, or perhaps concurrently. Once the Siphon is destroyed, Elizabeth gains total control over time and space. She could have potentially spent millennia wandering around the multiverse before returning to Booker and helping him destroy Comstock and from his perspective it would have seemed completely sequitur. It does raise the question of why she bothered killing Comstock if she's planning to erase him from existence later, but it could be that killing him was not her ultimate goal in that timeline. Instead she was merely using him to find Sally, and once they did she pulled a YouHaveOutlivedYourUsefulness on him.
** But in how the Lutece twins explain time, there is no such thing as BEFORE Comstock being erased, Comstock is erased, will be erased, has been erased. All time is simultaneous. The only explanation is that indeed, ''[=BioShock=]'''s ending is BS, or rather Elizabeth and Booker have no idea what they were doing. They thought they erased the timeline, but in fact, it was all futile, because there are always constants, and introducing new constants only introduces new timelines.
** I figured it was a Comstock that escaped the event that ended all his counterparts. If you look at Alpha?Elizabeth as she was begging Comstock to let go of Anna, she is still wearing the clothes she had on in Colombia. In the end
of the main game, the Elizabeths that drown Alpha!Booker are not her. It can be figured that it was at this moment she left Alpha!Booker to go and try and get Comstock to reconsider in this universe, maybe as a way to alter the infinite timelines without killing him, this being her first try to alter timelines long-term effects of playing with her abilities, she fails...badly. This Comstock then has the Luteces transport him to the BAS!Rapture where he forgets his past, his mind create memories as to why he is in Rapture tears; namely, artificial aging and he becomes Booker!Comstock, but this saves him. As he made the journey to mass cancer. I'd imagine its just a universe where Booker never existed or was still alive elsewhere, before Alpha!Booker erased the Comstock timelines. He saved himself, unwittingly, from never existing. The point, as I understood, quirk of the entire DLC was Alpha!Elizabeth trying to see if Booker!Comstock had truly changed into a Booker, or if deep down he was still Comstock. This is why she set up events so that Booker!Comstock's rescue of Sally would mirror Comstock' stealing Dead!Elizabeth. She was giving him a second chance and once again he failed, showing that in the end, he was still Comstock. She then watched him die to "erase" him, one less Comstock to harm others.
** He tried to rescue a little girl from a life of being a genetic abomination, he didn't even want to use the heat up the furnace trick, ''and Elizabeth is judging as an asshole deserving to die''. What. I think Liz, godlike or not, is tottaly blinded by her hatred for Comstock, and that she is trying to pidgeonholed him as an evil bastard, no matter what.
** Well... dude did decapitate a baby.
** With an infinite amount of parallel universes it's perfectly possible that there's at least one if not countless where Booker refuses the baptism but due to who knows what factors becomes Comstock anyway, as well as Bookers who take the baptism but for whatever reason avoid becoming a power-hungry religious zealot. The drowning only prevents the Comstocks that result from the baptism, it doesn't stop the ones that happen due to other circumstances.
** The answer appears obvious that Comstock's cross-universe trip to Rapture delinked him somewhat from the timeline (like Elizabeth and the Lucetes, but to a lesser degree), protecting him from the trans-dimensional Comstockicide. That caused Elizabeth to go back on a more personal level.
** it is possible that a booker has a second thought about rejecting babtism and goes back a a later time. this creates a third variation of himself the indecisive!comstock. creating a world paralel to the columbias but a half second to late. since this multiverse runs on voteordie karma indecisive!comstock is given the harshest punishment to live and die as a failure, Compare cocksureamericanazisantaclause!Comsock who gets the martyr death he actually wanted and dies believing everything will happn as he envisions, or the fate of booker not only is rewarded with redemption but enlightment. in the end indecisive!comstock is a benign loose end that some elizibeth decided needed to be tied up in an overly complicated manner, as most revenge plots do, setting in motion consequences that would probably happen anyway

tears.



[[folder:What is Elizabeth Doing At the End of ''Burial at Sea''?]]
* While I can understand a lot of the plot details regarding the ending, there's one massive issue I still can't get around. If the hypothetical split between the main campaign and the ''Burial at Sea'' campaign is the event where Comstock takes Anna away from Booker in the portal, then the ''Burial at Sea'' story takes place in the one that we see from Comstock's POV, where Anna is decapitated, he suffers from guilt and retreats to Rapture. Question: What is grown-up Elizabeth doing there? I understand that at the end of the main game, she was basically trying to rid out all versions of Comstock after becoming an omniscient PhysicalGod, even the ones that weren't formed by Booker's baptism, but then why is she there? If she's able to jump timelines like the Luteces now, then why doesn't she just deck Comstock in the head rather than just shouting at him with the Luteces for him to give Anna back to Booker? Hell, if she could do that, then why did she have to follow him when he went to Rapture? Couldn't she just have jumped back again and actually did something else at that same situation? I realize this is only Episode One's ending, I do think this warrants some form of explanation.
** I think of it as she's trying to redeem him first, see if this Comstock is one of the variables. One of the Comstocks who lets go, or will be the first to let go. And her trailing him throughout the game to see if Rapture has changed him, to see if he's a better man. She's a physical god, she can judge him all she wants, and then when she makes his judgment, determine what to do.
** There's one problem with that - When they find Sally in the ducts, Elizabeth is insistent in burning her out of them and Comstock wants no part in potentially killing her, going so far in that he demands Elizabeth hit the thermostat. If Elizabeth were judging his character or looking to redeem him then she wouldn't be putting herself in a position where she could be doing something even more monstrous than what she knows Comstock did.

to:

[[folder:What is Elizabeth Doing At the End of ''Burial at Sea''?]]
* While I can understand a lot of the plot details regarding the ending, there's one massive issue I still can't get around. If the hypothetical split between the main campaign and the ''Burial at Sea'' campaign is the event where
[[folder:Elizabeth: Comstock takes Anna away from Booker in the portal, then the ''Burial at Sea'' story takes place in the one that we see from and Lady Comstock's POV, where Anna is decapitated, he suffers from guilt and retreats to Rapture. Question: What is grown-up Daughter]]
* Over the course of their adventure
Elizabeth doing there? I understand and Booker realize that at the end of the main game, she was basically trying to rid out all versions of Comstock and Lady Comstock are not Elizabeth's father and mother as they had originally thought. Elizabeth and Booker repeatedly say this at various points thereafter. Why then, after becoming an omniscient PhysicalGod, even they reach the ones ''Hand of the Prophet'' airship, does Elizabeth still refer to Lady Comstock as her mother and does Booker tell Comstock that Elizabeth is his daughter when they finally confront him? Did they just forget?
-->'''Elizabeth:''' They
weren't formed by Booker's baptism, but then why my parents.\\
-->'''Elizabeth:''' I'm not even his daughter...\\
'''Elizabeth:''' [speaking through a tear] He
is she there? If she's able to jump timelines like ''not'' my father!\\
'''[=DeWitt=]:''' She is ''not'' your daughter.\\
[But after they reach
the Luteces now, then why doesn't she just deck Comstock in the head rather than just shouting at him with the Luteces for him to give Anna back to Booker? Hell, if she could do that, then why did she have to follow him when he went to Rapture? Couldn't she just have jumped back again and actually did something else at that same situation? I realize this is only Episode One's ending, I do think this warrants some form of explanation.
** I think of it as she's trying to redeem him first, see if this Comstock is one
''Hand of the variables. One of the Comstocks who lets go, or will be the first to let go. And her trailing him throughout the game to see if Rapture has changed him, to see if he's Prophet'']\\
'''Elizabeth:''' ...and then in my mother's (Lady Comstock's) grave there was
a better man. smaller one.\\
'''[=DeWitt=]:''' [To Comstock]
She's your daughter, you son of a physical god, she can judge him all she wants, and then when she makes his judgment, determine what to do.
bitch!
** There's one problem with that - When they find Sally in the ducts, Elizabeth is insistent in burning her Booker was calling out of them and Comstock wants no part in potentially killing her, going so far in that for abusing his position as Elizabeth's adoptive/foster father, which was horrifying regardless of whether or not he demands Elizabeth hit the thermostat. If and Elizabeth were judging his character or looking technically related. Elizabeth probably just refers to redeem him then she wouldn't be putting herself in a position where she could be doing something even more monstrous than what she knows Lady Comstock did.as her "mother" out of convenience, as she used to think of LC as her mother and Booker knows who she's talking about.



[[folder:Big Daddies in ''Burial at Sea'']]
* For some reason, no one on the Internet is bringing that up. The original ''VideoGame/BioShock1'' [[http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Protecting_Little_Ones establishes]] that Big Daddies were created during the Atlas/Ryan civil war in 1959. But they appear in ''Burial at Sea'', which is an anachronism, since this DLC is set shortly before the start of the war, and there isn't yet "a genetic arms race" going on nor a whole lot of corpses lying on the streets. And the Bouncer that fights Booker is clearly shown to be protecting Sally, which means these Big Daddies aren't just maintenance workers who would later be given a new function. It's understandable why the developers wanted to include such an iconic element of Rapture as the Big Daddy, but they didn't quite think this through from the writing standpoint. Of course, the discrepancy could easily be explained by this Rapture not being in the same reality as the one from ''[=BioShock=]'', but Ken Levine's words in [[http://www.computerandvideogames.com/432380/interviews/return-to-rapture-ken-levine-on-bioshock-infinite-burial-at-sea/ an interview]] imply that this is, in fact, the Rapture from the first game. So, is this a retcon, or is this Rapture really a different one? [[https://twitter.com/IGLevine Asking]] Ken about it might shed some light on the issue. ''Burial at Sea'' Episode 2 may also provide some answers. There was a similar discrepancy in ''VideoGame/BioShock2'', with Suchong dying at the hands of a Big Daddy before the New Year's Eve, although IG apparently doesn't consider this game canon, and Burial at Sea contradicts it in regard to Big Daddies, already having Bouncers around in Rapture.
** It's a bit of a FanWank on my part, maybe some of the information given is unreliable. I mean, we never heard of ''Minerva's Den'' and the Thinker before ''VideoGame/BioShock2''. Maybe some stuff isn't exactly known. Maybe the Big Daddies weren't widely known about. And those that did had ties to Fontaine and Ryan. Like Booker with his cop friend Sullivan, who worked directly for Ryan.
** The same Big Daddy issue exists in the ''[=BioShock=]'' prequel novel ''[[Literature/BioShockRapture Rapture]]'', but that incorporates characters from the sequel too, so that might not be canon.
** Episode 2 shows the how the bonding process came to be - a Little Sister healed a Big Daddy by injecting him with some of her ADAM. Maybe Sally helped out the Bouncer in Episode 1 in a similar fashion offscreen? Or maybe her screaming simply drove him into berserker mode and he attacked the two closest people nearby?

to:

[[folder:Big Daddies in ''Burial at Sea'']]

[[folder:The interracial couple]]
* For some reason, no one on They give you Gear if you tried to throw the Internet is bringing that up. The original ''VideoGame/BioShock1'' [[http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Protecting_Little_Ones establishes]] that Big Daddies were created during the Atlas/Ryan civil war in 1959. But baseball at Fink. How do they appear in ''Burial at Sea'', which is an anachronism, since this DLC is set shortly before the start of the war, and there isn't yet "a genetic arms race" going on nor a whole lot of corpses lying on the streets. And the Bouncer that fights Booker is clearly shown to be protecting Sally, which means these Big Daddies aren't just maintenance workers who would later be given a new function. It's understandable why the developers wanted to include such an iconic element of Rapture as the Big Daddy, but they didn't quite think this through from the writing standpoint. Of course, the discrepancy could easily be explained by this Rapture not being in the same reality as the one from ''[=BioShock=]'', but Ken Levine's words in [[http://www.computerandvideogames.com/432380/interviews/return-to-rapture-ken-levine-on-bioshock-infinite-burial-at-sea/ an interview]] imply that this is, in fact, the Rapture from the first game. So, is this a retcon, or is this Rapture really a different one? [[https://twitter.com/IGLevine Asking]] Ken about it might shed some light on the issue. ''Burial at Sea'' Episode 2 may also provide some answers. There was a similar discrepancy in ''VideoGame/BioShock2'', with Suchong dying at the hands of a Big Daddy before the New Year's Eve, although IG apparently doesn't consider this game canon, and Burial at Sea contradicts it in regard to Big Daddies, already having Bouncers around in Rapture.
** It's a bit of a FanWank on my part, maybe some of the information given is unreliable. I mean, we never heard of ''Minerva's Den'' and the Thinker before ''VideoGame/BioShock2''. Maybe some stuff isn't exactly known. Maybe the Big Daddies weren't widely known about. And those that did had ties to Fontaine and Ryan. Like Booker with his cop friend Sullivan, who worked directly for Ryan.
**
know? [[https://youtu.be/NyMndWpihTM?t=159 The same Big Daddy issue exists in the ''[=BioShock=]'' prequel novel ''[[Literature/BioShockRapture Rapture]]'', but that incorporates characters from the sequel too, so that might not be canon.
** Episode 2 shows the how the bonding process came to be - a Little Sister healed a Big Daddy by injecting him with some of her ADAM. Maybe Sally helped out the Bouncer in Episode 1 in a similar fashion offscreen? Or maybe her screaming simply drove him into berserker mode and he attacked the two closest people nearby?
animation appears identical]].



[[folder:''Burial at Sea'' and Vigors]]
* Why are there Vigors in 1959's Rapture? If they were Plasmids in any other thing except name I'd understand, but they are not only most of the same Vigors you find in Columbia (including "Shock Jockey" instead of Electro Bolt) and they make people crazy, but they are not injected. (INB4 they are using the ''[=BioShock=] Infinite'' engine. I'm sure they could have tweaked it a bit if they really meant to.)
** An audio log explains how Suchong saw Fink through a Tear stealing his Plasmid designs and tweaking them into drinkable compounds, ie the Vigors. Suchong then stole that idea for essentialy next-gen Plasmids, but there wasn't time enough to distribute them widely before the attack on New Year's Eve, which is mere hours away during the event of ''Burial at Sea'' ep1.
** This wouldn't seem make sense though, since there is a chalkboard in Fink's Leisure Room that indicates that drinkable vigors use 10X more Adam than the injected versions, and that he will be changing the vigors to injected versions. Why then, would he tweak the injected version into the drinkable version, and then change back? And why would Suchong use a less efficient version as the "next-gen" version?
** Because as the Rapture Civil War wore on, ADAM became less and less common and more difficult to acquire. Drinking it is cool and all and a lot less uncomfortable than needles, but in the end he had to switch to injected to save resources. Presumably Fink would do the same because it would increase the profit margin.

to:

!!Burial at Sea

[[folder:''Burial at Sea'' and Vigors]]
* Why are there Vigors in 1959's Rapture? If they were Plasmids in any other thing except name I'd understand, but they are not only most of
makes the same Vigors you find in Columbia (including "Shock Jockey" instead of Electro Bolt) and they original game make people crazy, but they are not injected. (INB4 they are using no sense!]]
* If we're to believe
the generally accepted explanation of what the ending of ''[=BioShock=] Infinite'' engine. I'm sure they could have tweaked means, it a bit if they really meant to.)
** An audio log explains how Suchong saw Fink through a Tear stealing his Plasmid designs and tweaking them into drinkable compounds, ie the Vigors. Suchong then stole
is that idea for essentialy next-gen Plasmids, but there wasn't time enough to distribute them widely Elizabeth, in drowning Booker [=DeWitt=] in the baptism pool before the attack on New Year's Eve, choice between [=DeWitt's=] path and Comstock's is made, utterly obliterates every timeline which is mere hours away during involves Booker [=DeWitt=] becoming Zachary Comstock by killing him at the event of very point where that choice is made. Thus, we are to believe, Comstock CANNOT exist anywhere in any universe as Booker can never become him, found Columbia, rain holy fire on the world etc. But ''Burial at Sea'' ep1.
** This wouldn't seem make
quite clearly proves that to be horseshit, because it now turns out that far from preventing any Comstock from ever existing, he still does in at least some timelines, and Elizabeth (presumably the last one left in the BS:I ending) has to roam around the multiverse to get revenge on his various incarnations individually. WHAT. THE. FUCK. You can either take this one of two ways: either Elizabeth's timeline-reality-warping at the end of BS:I was never going to destroy all the Comstocks, in which case there was no point drowning Booker at all other than RuleOfDrama (and this directly contradicts what Liz herself says about Comstock's still being alive in "a million million worlds" necessitating him being smothered in the crib), or the explanation given for what Elizabeth did makes absolutely no sense though, since and therefore neither does the ending, even as a metaphor. Either way it somehow manages to RetCon ''in'' a plot hole, which seems at best deeply unsatisfying and at worst something that completely ruins the first game entirely...
** It's possible that drowning Booker only destroyed Comstock in the worlds where Elizabeth existed. Anna was killed as an infant in Burial!Comstock's universe, thus leading to his guilt and absconding to Rapture. Elizabeth, and by extension Columbia, could not have happened in that universe because Anna died -- therefore, in that universe Booker was not drowned because Elizabeth did not exist to drown him. Alpha!Elizabeth, fresh from the events of Infinite, is coming to fix that error by killing that version of Comstock. It's also possible that by going into another universe, Comstock saved himself from the universes resetting so that he always drowned, and again Alpha!Elizabeth is coming to fix that error. Either way, the DLC is not over yet. All of this will probably be explained come Episode Two...
** Another possibility is that this DLC actually takes place before Comstock is erased from the timeline, or perhaps concurrently. Once the Siphon is destroyed, Elizabeth gains total control over time and space. She could have potentially spent millennia wandering around the multiverse before returning to Booker and helping him destroy Comstock and from his perspective it would have seemed completely sequitur. It does raise the question of why she bothered killing Comstock if she's planning to erase him from existence later, but it could be that killing him was not her ultimate goal in that timeline. Instead she was merely using him to find Sally, and once they did she pulled a YouHaveOutlivedYourUsefulness on him.
** But in how the Lutece twins explain time,
there is a chalkboard in Fink's Leisure Room no such thing as BEFORE Comstock being erased, Comstock is erased, will be erased, has been erased. All time is simultaneous. The only explanation is that indicates indeed, ''[=BioShock=]'''s ending is BS, or rather Elizabeth and Booker have no idea what they were doing. They thought they erased the timeline, but in fact, it was all futile, because there are always constants, and introducing new constants only introduces new timelines.
** I figured it was a Comstock
that drinkable vigors escaped the event that ended all his counterparts. If you look at Alpha?Elizabeth as she was begging Comstock to let go of Anna, she is still wearing the clothes she had on in Colombia. In the end of the main game, the Elizabeths that drown Alpha!Booker are not her. It can be figured that it was at this moment she left Alpha!Booker to go and try and get Comstock to reconsider in this universe, maybe as a way to alter the infinite timelines without killing him, this being her first try to alter timelines with her abilities, she fails...badly. This Comstock then has the Luteces transport him to the BAS!Rapture where he forgets his past, his mind create memories as to why he is in Rapture and he becomes Booker!Comstock, but this saves him. As he made the journey to a universe where Booker never existed or was still alive elsewhere, before Alpha!Booker erased the Comstock timelines. He saved himself, unwittingly, from never existing. The point, as I understood, of the entire DLC was Alpha!Elizabeth trying to see if Booker!Comstock had truly changed into a Booker, or if deep down he was still Comstock. This is why she set up events so that Booker!Comstock's rescue of Sally would mirror Comstock' stealing Dead!Elizabeth. She was giving him a second chance and once again he failed, showing that in the end, he was still Comstock. She then watched him die to "erase" him, one less Comstock to harm others.
** He tried to rescue a little girl from a life of being a genetic abomination, he didn't even want to
use 10X more Adam than the injected versions, heat up the furnace trick, ''and Elizabeth is judging as an asshole deserving to die''. What. I think Liz, godlike or not, is tottaly blinded by her hatred for Comstock, and that he will be changing she is trying to pidgeonholed him as an evil bastard, no matter what.
** Well... dude did decapitate a baby.
** With an infinite amount of parallel universes it's perfectly possible that there's at least one if not countless where Booker refuses
the vigors baptism but due to injected versions. Why then, would he tweak who knows what factors becomes Comstock anyway, as well as Bookers who take the injected version into baptism but for whatever reason avoid becoming a power-hungry religious zealot. The drowning only prevents the drinkable version, and then change back? And why would Suchong use a less efficient version as Comstocks that result from the "next-gen" version?
** Because as
baptism, it doesn't stop the ones that happen due to other circumstances.
** The answer appears obvious that Comstock's cross-universe trip to
Rapture Civil War wore on, ADAM became less delinked him somewhat from the timeline (like Elizabeth and less common and the Lucetes, but to a lesser degree), protecting him from the trans-dimensional Comstockicide. That caused Elizabeth to go back on a more difficult to acquire. Drinking personal level.
**
it is cool possible that a booker has a second thought about rejecting babtism and all goes back a a later time. this creates a third variation of himself the indecisive!comstock. creating a world paralel to the columbias but a half second to late. since this multiverse runs on voteordie karma indecisive!comstock is given the harshest punishment to live and die as a lot less uncomfortable than needles, failure, Compare cocksureamericanazisantaclause!Comsock who gets the martyr death he actually wanted and dies believing everything will happn as he envisions, or the fate of booker not only is rewarded with redemption but enlightment. in the end he had indecisive!comstock is a benign loose end that some elizibeth decided needed to switch to injected to save resources. Presumably Fink be tied up in an overly complicated manner, as most revenge plots do, setting in motion consequences that would do the same because it would increase the profit margin.probably happen anyway




[[folder:No Happy Endings in ''Infinite''?]]
* Why do the endings of the main game and ''Burial at Sea'', Episode 1, have something horrible happening to the player?
** Maybe Irrational hates happy endings?
** I'd consider [[spoiler:Booker reuniting with baby Anna, with Comstock and Columbia retroactively erased from existence]], to be a fairly happy ending, all things considered.
** All that ending means is Anna is stuck with a Booker, who we can assume has no memories of his adventures in Columbia, who is a horrible man and the same guy that sold her to settle a debt. Is it really good she's stuck with him?
** And given how Burial at Sea ends, there is simply no way out, the [=DeWitts=] are doomed to suffer at the end of the road.
** A running theme throughout the main game and both Episodes is that of redemption, namely that [[spoiler:the only way Booker and Elizabeth believe they can redeem themselves is by dying to save one who is almost ruined by their actions]], while on the flip side [[spoiler:Comstock gets his comeuppance for refusing to accept responsibility for the way his actions have ruined others and selfishly pursuing his own ends]]. And in order for that to happen, you have to do terrible things to the PlayerCharacter.

to:

[[folder:No Happy Endings in ''Infinite''?]]
* Why do
[[folder:What is Elizabeth Doing At the endings End of the main game and ''Burial at Sea'', Episode 1, have something horrible happening to Sea''?]]
* While I can understand a lot of
the player?
** Maybe Irrational hates happy endings?
** I'd consider [[spoiler:Booker reuniting with baby Anna, with
plot details regarding the ending, there's one massive issue I still can't get around. If the hypothetical split between the main campaign and the ''Burial at Sea'' campaign is the event where Comstock and Columbia retroactively erased takes Anna away from existence]], to be a fairly happy ending, all things considered.
** All
Booker in the portal, then the ''Burial at Sea'' story takes place in the one that ending means is we see from Comstock's POV, where Anna is stuck with a Booker, who we can assume has no memories of his adventures in Columbia, who is a horrible man decapitated, he suffers from guilt and the same guy retreats to Rapture. Question: What is grown-up Elizabeth doing there? I understand that sold her to settle a debt. Is it really good she's stuck with him?
** And given how Burial at Sea ends, there is simply no way out, the [=DeWitts=] are doomed to suffer
at the end of the road.
main game, she was basically trying to rid out all versions of Comstock after becoming an omniscient PhysicalGod, even the ones that weren't formed by Booker's baptism, but then why is she there? If she's able to jump timelines like the Luteces now, then why doesn't she just deck Comstock in the head rather than just shouting at him with the Luteces for him to give Anna back to Booker? Hell, if she could do that, then why did she have to follow him when he went to Rapture? Couldn't she just have jumped back again and actually did something else at that same situation? I realize this is only Episode One's ending, I do think this warrants some form of explanation.
** A running theme I think of it as she's trying to redeem him first, see if this Comstock is one of the variables. One of the Comstocks who lets go, or will be the first to let go. And her trailing him throughout the main game to see if Rapture has changed him, to see if he's a better man. She's a physical god, she can judge him all she wants, and both Episodes is then when she makes his judgment, determine what to do.
** There's one problem with
that of redemption, namely that [[spoiler:the only way Booker and - When they find Sally in the ducts, Elizabeth believe they can is insistent in burning her out of them and Comstock wants no part in potentially killing her, going so far in that he demands Elizabeth hit the thermostat. If Elizabeth were judging his character or looking to redeem themselves is by dying to save one who is almost ruined by their actions]], while on the flip side [[spoiler:Comstock gets his comeuppance for refusing to accept responsibility for the way his actions have ruined others and selfishly pursuing his own ends]]. And him then she wouldn't be putting herself in order for that to happen, you have to do terrible things to the PlayerCharacter. a position where she could be doing something even more monstrous than what she knows Comstock did.



[[folder:In ''Burial at Sea'', does Elizabeth [[spoiler: murder Sally to troll Comstock?]]]]
* As mentioned above, once they find out Sally is in the pipe ducts Elizabeth is so insistent in turning the heat up and Comstock repeatedly warns her that it could kill the girl. Eventually he's so pissed that he makes Elizabeth hit the thermostat, and at the point he's almost saved Sally Elizabeth demands he lets her go. When the Big Daddy kills Comstock, it's pretty obvious that the girl's still in the pipe, so what happens then? did Elizabeth just do something much more evil than what she killed Comstock over?
** Promotional material for episode 2 shows Elizabeth holding a Little Sister, presumably Sally. Maybe she needs her for something, and decided to make Comstock help her (and then kill him [[YouHaveOutlivedYourUsefulness when she didn't need him]]). It's hard to tell until it actually comes out. Furthermore, Little Sisters are basically immortal. Unless those vents are a ''lot'' hotter than they should be (like hot enough to ''incinerate'' things), she'll survive. It will hurt, but she'll survive.
** Guessing from the [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUQsbEO0bGw trailer]] for Part 2, Sally survived.
** As of Episode 2, Sally is indeed alive, and [[spoiler:Elizabeth's treatment of Sally in Part 1 is basically a giant "What have I done?" that drives her events in Part 2]].

to:

[[folder:In [[folder:Big Daddies in ''Burial at Sea'']]
* For some reason, no one on the Internet is bringing that up. The original ''VideoGame/BioShock1'' [[http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Protecting_Little_Ones establishes]] that Big Daddies were created during the Atlas/Ryan civil war in 1959. But they appear in
''Burial at Sea'', does Elizabeth [[spoiler: murder Sally to troll Comstock?]]]]
* As mentioned above, once they find out Sally
which is in an anachronism, since this DLC is set shortly before the pipe ducts Elizabeth is so insistent in turning start of the heat up war, and Comstock repeatedly warns her there isn't yet "a genetic arms race" going on nor a whole lot of corpses lying on the streets. And the Bouncer that it could kill fights Booker is clearly shown to be protecting Sally, which means these Big Daddies aren't just maintenance workers who would later be given a new function. It's understandable why the girl. Eventually he's so pissed that he makes Elizabeth hit the thermostat, and at the point he's almost saved Sally Elizabeth demands he lets her go. When developers wanted to include such an iconic element of Rapture as the Big Daddy kills Comstock, it's pretty obvious that the girl's still in the pipe, so what happens then? did Elizabeth just do something much more evil than what she killed Comstock over?
** Promotional material for episode 2 shows Elizabeth holding a Little Sister, presumably Sally. Maybe she needs her for something, and decided to make Comstock help her (and then kill him [[YouHaveOutlivedYourUsefulness when she
Daddy, but they didn't need him]]). It's hard to tell until it actually comes out. Furthermore, Little Sisters are basically immortal. Unless those vents are a ''lot'' hotter than they should be (like hot enough to ''incinerate'' things), she'll survive. It will hurt, but she'll survive.
** Guessing
quite think this through from the writing standpoint. Of course, the discrepancy could easily be explained by this Rapture not being in the same reality as the one from ''[=BioShock=]'', but Ken Levine's words in [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUQsbEO0bGw trailer]] for Part 2, Sally survived.
** As of
computerandvideogames.com/432380/interviews/return-to-rapture-ken-levine-on-bioshock-infinite-burial-at-sea/ an interview]] imply that this is, in fact, the Rapture from the first game. So, is this a retcon, or is this Rapture really a different one? [[https://twitter.com/IGLevine Asking]] Ken about it might shed some light on the issue. ''Burial at Sea'' Episode 2, 2 may also provide some answers. There was a similar discrepancy in ''VideoGame/BioShock2'', with Suchong dying at the hands of a Big Daddy before the New Year's Eve, although IG apparently doesn't consider this game canon, and Burial at Sea contradicts it in regard to Big Daddies, already having Bouncers around in Rapture.
** It's a bit of a FanWank on my part, maybe some of the information given is unreliable. I mean, we never heard of ''Minerva's Den'' and the Thinker before ''VideoGame/BioShock2''. Maybe some stuff isn't exactly known. Maybe the Big Daddies weren't widely known about. And those that did had ties to Fontaine and Ryan. Like Booker with his cop friend Sullivan, who worked directly for Ryan.
** The same Big Daddy issue exists in the ''[=BioShock=]'' prequel novel ''[[Literature/BioShockRapture Rapture]]'', but that incorporates characters from the sequel too, so that might not be canon.
** Episode 2 shows the how the bonding process came to be - a Little Sister healed a Big Daddy by injecting him with some of her ADAM. Maybe
Sally is indeed alive, helped out the Bouncer in Episode 1 in a similar fashion offscreen? Or maybe her screaming simply drove him into berserker mode and [[spoiler:Elizabeth's treatment of Sally in Part 1 is basically a giant "What have I done?" that drives her events in Part 2]].
he attacked the two closest people nearby?



[[folder: Cohen's mustache]]
* Is it faked, or is it real? Cohen probably had an actual mustache, but in ''Burial at Sea'', it looks like it was drawn on. So do his eyebrows. For reference, see this [[http://i.neoseeker.com/neo_image/81602/news/7/cohen_trailerscreen_web.jpg picture.]] and [[http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/684846174479082699/0738DB5190CAB9B83EF0E74CC9CD9CCB1D44F84E/ this one.]] (WARNING: UncannyValley+NightmareFuel)
** Looks pretty fake to me, like he smeared his face with a calligraphy pen. Come to think of it, I don't think he even his mustache in ''VideoGame/BioShock1'' was real, looking back at it. But yeah, no facial hair could be that smooth.
** You could be right-[[http://cloud-3.steampowered.com/ugc/684846174479077203/B871F4C1DDE05C79BC7D95AFCDD99F76407EBB0E/ This]] picture I posted on the NightmareFuel page shows him without one. But then, Fontaine Futuristics also made lots of other Plasmids that aren't seen in the game. I remember in the ''Literature/BioShockRapture'' book, an angry Brooklyn worker yells that his "New Skills" Plasmid, that he was going to use for a job tomorrow, was stolen. So perhaps Fontaine made a Plasmid that gives you impossibly smooth looking facial hair?

to:

[[folder: Cohen's mustache]]
[[folder:''Burial at Sea'' and Vigors]]
* Is it faked, or is it real? Cohen probably had an actual mustache, Why are there Vigors in 1959's Rapture? If they were Plasmids in any other thing except name I'd understand, but they are not only most of the same Vigors you find in Columbia (including "Shock Jockey" instead of Electro Bolt) and they make people crazy, but they are not injected. (INB4 they are using the ''[=BioShock=] Infinite'' engine. I'm sure they could have tweaked it a bit if they really meant to.)
** An audio log explains how Suchong saw Fink through a Tear stealing his Plasmid designs and tweaking them into drinkable compounds, ie the Vigors. Suchong then stole that idea for essentialy next-gen Plasmids, but there wasn't time enough to distribute them widely before the attack on New Year's Eve, which is mere hours away during the event of
''Burial at Sea'', it looks like it was drawn on. So do his eyebrows. For reference, see this [[http://i.neoseeker.com/neo_image/81602/news/7/cohen_trailerscreen_web.jpg picture.]] and [[http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/684846174479082699/0738DB5190CAB9B83EF0E74CC9CD9CCB1D44F84E/ this one.]] (WARNING: UncannyValley+NightmareFuel)
Sea'' ep1.
** Looks pretty fake to me, like he smeared his face with This wouldn't seem make sense though, since there is a calligraphy pen. Come to think of it, I don't think he even his mustache chalkboard in ''VideoGame/BioShock1'' was real, looking back at it. But yeah, no facial hair could be Fink's Leisure Room that smooth.
** You could be right-[[http://cloud-3.steampowered.com/ugc/684846174479077203/B871F4C1DDE05C79BC7D95AFCDD99F76407EBB0E/ This]] picture I posted on the NightmareFuel page shows him without one. But then, Fontaine Futuristics also made lots of other Plasmids
indicates that aren't seen in drinkable vigors use 10X more Adam than the game. I remember in the ''Literature/BioShockRapture'' book, an angry Brooklyn worker yells that his "New Skills" Plasmid, injected versions, and that he was going will be changing the vigors to injected versions. Why then, would he tweak the injected version into the drinkable version, and then change back? And why would Suchong use for a job tomorrow, was stolen. So perhaps Fontaine made less efficient version as the "next-gen" version?
** Because as the Rapture Civil War wore on, ADAM became less and less common and more difficult to acquire. Drinking it is cool and all and
a Plasmid that gives you impossibly smooth looking facial hair?lot less uncomfortable than needles, but in the end he had to switch to injected to save resources. Presumably Fink would do the same because it would increase the profit margin.



[[folder: How was the first Elizabeth unable to handle a single Big Daddy?]]
* Given how easily she was able to dispatch Songbird, how was she unable to deal with a much weaker Big Daddy? Did she not have her god-like powers? Why? There's no Siphon in Rapture like there was in Columbia to limit her abilities to just opening Tears.
** She panicked and hesitated a moment too long (her dialog suggests she didn't want to hurt the Bouncer) and got backhanded across the room before she could use her powers.
** Unless I'm mistaken, doesn't her dialog later also suggest that she could see the future previously? If so, why didn't she see it coming?
** It depends on your perspective, given Part 2. [[spoiler:On one hand, it could be argued that Elizabeth just didn't care. As long as she didn't return to this reality, killing her there would have no real impact. However, it's sorta implied that Elizabeth knew that dying, then incarnating there to become mortal would serve a greater good by freeing the Little Sisters... but that implies a lot more.]]

to:

[[folder: How was [[folder:No Happy Endings in ''Infinite''?]]
* Why do
the first endings of the main game and ''Burial at Sea'', Episode 1, have something horrible happening to the player?
** Maybe Irrational hates happy endings?
** I'd consider [[spoiler:Booker reuniting with baby Anna, with Comstock and Columbia retroactively erased from existence]], to be a fairly happy ending, all things considered.
** All that ending means is Anna is stuck with a Booker, who we can assume has no memories of his adventures in Columbia, who is a horrible man and the same guy that sold her to settle a debt. Is it really good she's stuck with him?
** And given how Burial at Sea ends, there is simply no way out, the [=DeWitts=] are doomed to suffer at the end of the road.
** A running theme throughout the main game and both Episodes is that of redemption, namely that [[spoiler:the only way Booker and
Elizabeth unable believe they can redeem themselves is by dying to handle a single Big Daddy?]]
* Given how easily she was able
save one who is almost ruined by their actions]], while on the flip side [[spoiler:Comstock gets his comeuppance for refusing to dispatch Songbird, how was she unable to deal with a much weaker Big Daddy? Did she not accept responsibility for the way his actions have her god-like powers? Why? There's no Siphon in Rapture like there was in Columbia to limit her abilities to just opening Tears.
** She panicked
ruined others and hesitated a moment too long (her dialog suggests she didn't want to hurt the Bouncer) and got backhanded across the room before she could use her powers.
** Unless I'm mistaken, doesn't her dialog later also suggest
selfishly pursuing his own ends]]. And in order for that she could see the future previously? If so, why didn't she see it coming?
** It depends on your perspective, given Part 2. [[spoiler:On one hand, it could be argued that Elizabeth just didn't care. As long as she didn't return
to this reality, killing her there would happen, you have no real impact. However, it's sorta implied that Elizabeth knew that dying, then incarnating there to become mortal would serve a greater good by freeing do terrible things to the Little Sisters... but that implies a lot more.]]PlayerCharacter.



[[folder: So, why does Atlas let Sally go in the end?]]
* This is the one thing I don't get about the ending to ''Burial at Sea part 2''. The DLC goes to great lengths to show what an utter monster Atlas is, so it seems kind of odd for him to let Sally go at the end, especially given how he'd repeatedly stated how valuable Little Sisters and their ADAM were. You'd think he'd just feed her to his Splicers after [[spoiler: murdering Elizabeth]].
** All that mattered to Atlas was having the Ace. He got so tied up in ordering his splicers about for the next phase of his master plan that he forgets Sally even exists. Either that, or he decides to let her go in the hopes that Jack will eventually find and kill her to boost his power.

to:

[[folder: So, why does Atlas let Sally go in the end?]]
* This is the one thing I don't get about the ending to
[[folder:In ''Burial at Sea part 2''. The DLC goes to great lengths to show what an utter monster Atlas is, so it seems kind of odd for him to let Sea'', does Elizabeth [[spoiler: murder Sally go at to troll Comstock?]]]]
* As mentioned above, once they find out Sally is in
the end, especially given how he'd pipe ducts Elizabeth is so insistent in turning the heat up and Comstock repeatedly stated how valuable warns her that it could kill the girl. Eventually he's so pissed that he makes Elizabeth hit the thermostat, and at the point he's almost saved Sally Elizabeth demands he lets her go. When the Big Daddy kills Comstock, it's pretty obvious that the girl's still in the pipe, so what happens then? did Elizabeth just do something much more evil than what she killed Comstock over?
** Promotional material for episode 2 shows Elizabeth holding a Little Sister, presumably Sally. Maybe she needs her for something, and decided to make Comstock help her (and then kill him [[YouHaveOutlivedYourUsefulness when she didn't need him]]). It's hard to tell until it actually comes out. Furthermore,
Little Sisters and their ADAM were. You'd think he'd just feed her are basically immortal. Unless those vents are a ''lot'' hotter than they should be (like hot enough to his Splicers after [[spoiler: murdering Elizabeth]].
''incinerate'' things), she'll survive. It will hurt, but she'll survive.
** All that mattered to Atlas was having Guessing from the Ace. He got so tied up in ordering his splicers about [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUQsbEO0bGw trailer]] for the next phase of his master plan that he forgets Part 2, Sally even exists. Either that, or he decides to let her go survived.
** As of Episode 2, Sally is indeed alive, and [[spoiler:Elizabeth's treatment of Sally
in the hopes Part 1 is basically a giant "What have I done?" that Jack will eventually find and kill drives her to boost his power.events in Part 2]].



[[folder: ''BioShock 2'' considered noncanon?]]
* So ''VideoGame/BioShock2'' implied that Suchong was killed by Delta. However,[[spoiler: we see Suchong killed by a random bouncer, and Suchong never actually succeeded in creating the pair bond.]] Given the alternate universes scheme of Infinite, technically everything and nothing is canon, but it kind of bothers me to see a direct canon conflict like this. What gives?
** Delta did not kill Suchong, nor was it ever overtly implied that he did. No canon issues there.
** For the Meta reason, ''[=BioShock=] 2'' was not developed by Ken Levine's team, and in interviews they've mentioned not being particularly fond of it (to say the least). While making ''Burial at Sea'', they pretty much ignored ''[=BioShock=] 2'', although there's nothing that overtly renders it non-canon.
** While Delta is never stated to have killed Suchong, having his death occur on the New Year's Eve of the Kashmir renders the second game non-canon. Suchong's death is never given a specific date, but in the ''[=BioShock=] 2'' universe, it is explicitly stated that his death occurs prior to the creation of the Alpha series, because while the Big Daddy who killed him imprinted on the little sister, he would only react if she was in trouble or he needed her. He would otherwise wander off and do his own thing. Alexander surmises that this means there must be a stronger bond formed, because otherwise the Big Daddy will wander away and the little sister will be left defenseless. Thus Alpha series, and the conditioning that kills Delta if he's too far from Eleanor comes into play. Sofia Lamb takes Eleanor DURING the Kashmir attack. Eleanor and Delta, the first successful bonded pair of the Alpha series, are already functioning in their roles as a Little Sister and Big Daddy by the time the New Year's party attack happens. If the events of ''[=BioShock=] 2'' were to take place at all, Suchong has to have died BEFORE the New Year, in order to give time for the Alpha series to be created afterward, when Gil Alexander takes over the project, and for there to be three failed attempts to create the bonded pair before Eleanor and Delta are put together. By placing the death on the New Year, they render the events of the second game void.
** [[http://youtu.be/rciyCHa6J4o?t=46s This about sums it up]].
** [[MST3KMantra Don't think too much about it.]] I admit it is possible I missed something, but when it comes to the timeline, Burial at Sea can't even seem to get itself consistent, let alone with Bioshock 2. To wit, Suchong's death in Episode 2 has him complaining about how they can't get the Big Daddies to protect the Sisters, but that's exactly what the one at the end of Episode 1 was doing.

to:

[[folder: ''BioShock 2'' considered noncanon?]]
Cohen's mustache]]
* So ''VideoGame/BioShock2'' implied that Suchong was killed by Delta. However,[[spoiler: we see Suchong killed by a random bouncer, and Suchong never actually succeeded in creating the pair bond.]] Given the alternate universes scheme of Infinite, technically everything and nothing Is it faked, or is canon, it real? Cohen probably had an actual mustache, but it kind of bothers me to see a direct canon conflict like this. What gives?
** Delta did not kill Suchong, nor was it ever overtly implied that he did. No canon issues there.
** For the Meta reason, ''[=BioShock=] 2'' was not developed by Ken Levine's team, and
in interviews they've mentioned not being particularly fond of it (to say the least). While making ''Burial at Sea'', they it looks like it was drawn on. So do his eyebrows. For reference, see this [[http://i.neoseeker.com/neo_image/81602/news/7/cohen_trailerscreen_web.jpg picture.]] and [[http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/684846174479082699/0738DB5190CAB9B83EF0E74CC9CD9CCB1D44F84E/ this one.]] (WARNING: UncannyValley+NightmareFuel)
** Looks
pretty much ignored ''[=BioShock=] 2'', although there's nothing fake to me, like he smeared his face with a calligraphy pen. Come to think of it, I don't think he even his mustache in ''VideoGame/BioShock1'' was real, looking back at it. But yeah, no facial hair could be that overtly renders it non-canon.
smooth.
** While Delta is never stated to have killed Suchong, having his death occur You could be right-[[http://cloud-3.steampowered.com/ugc/684846174479077203/B871F4C1DDE05C79BC7D95AFCDD99F76407EBB0E/ This]] picture I posted on the New Year's Eve NightmareFuel page shows him without one. But then, Fontaine Futuristics also made lots of the Kashmir renders the second game non-canon. Suchong's death is never given a specific date, but other Plasmids that aren't seen in the ''[=BioShock=] 2'' universe, it is explicitly stated game. I remember in the ''Literature/BioShockRapture'' book, an angry Brooklyn worker yells that his death occurs prior to the creation of the Alpha series, because while the Big Daddy who killed him imprinted on the little sister, he would only react if she was in trouble or he needed her. He would otherwise wander off and do his own thing. Alexander surmises "New Skills" Plasmid, that this means there must be he was going to use for a stronger bond formed, because otherwise the Big Daddy will wander away and the little sister will be left defenseless. Thus Alpha series, and the conditioning job tomorrow, was stolen. So perhaps Fontaine made a Plasmid that kills Delta if he's too far from Eleanor comes into play. Sofia Lamb takes Eleanor DURING the Kashmir attack. Eleanor and Delta, the first successful bonded pair of the Alpha series, are already functioning in their roles as a Little Sister and Big Daddy by the time the New Year's party attack happens. If the events of ''[=BioShock=] 2'' were to take place at all, Suchong has to have died BEFORE the New Year, in order to give time for the Alpha series to be created afterward, when Gil Alexander takes over the project, and for there to be three failed attempts to create the bonded pair before Eleanor and Delta are put together. By placing the death on the New Year, they render the events of the second game void.
** [[http://youtu.be/rciyCHa6J4o?t=46s This about sums it up]].
** [[MST3KMantra Don't think too much about it.]] I admit it is possible I missed something, but when it comes to the timeline, Burial at Sea can't even seem to get itself consistent, let alone with Bioshock 2. To wit, Suchong's death in Episode 2 has him complaining about how they can't get the Big Daddies to protect the Sisters, but that's exactly what the one at the end of Episode 1 was doing.
gives you impossibly smooth looking facial hair?



[[folder: No one recognizes famous celebrity Elizabeth?]]
* Elizabeth is the hand-picked apprentice of Sander Cohen, who is Andrew Ryan's best pal. She has reached a level of fame such that her face is on advertising posters in the most lavish lounges the city has, and her singing voice is the radio for all to hear. Yet not a single person notices her as anything more than a random brunette woman, including Sander Cohen himself, despite the fact that she apparently hasn't changed her outfit for two months.
** Cohen and the splicers are all insane. Andrew and Atlas wouldn't care enough to bring it up.
** Cohen is more cunning than he looks. When talking to Elizabeth, he refers to her as "my little Songbird" or something to that effect. Watching that conversation again, it seems he does know Elizabeth but is playing coy in front of Booker because he sees that's what Elizabeth is doing (and having such a joke at Booker's expense is exactly the sort of thing that would give Cohen a buzz). As for why no one else recognizes her, Cohen seems to run through apprentices at a prodigious rate, and also it can be surprisingly difficult to recognize someone standing right in front of you from a poster or from TV.
** Coming from that theory, people would only hit themselves when they notice the poster, recall seeing "that girl" somewhere before-then realize they've just seen a famous celebrity.

to:

[[folder: No one recognizes famous celebrity Elizabeth?]]
*
How was the first Elizabeth is the hand-picked apprentice of Sander Cohen, who is Andrew Ryan's best pal. She has reached a level of fame such that her face is on advertising posters in the most lavish lounges the city has, and her singing voice is the radio for all unable to hear. Yet not handle a single person notices Big Daddy?]]
* Given how easily she was able to dispatch Songbird, how was she unable to deal with a much weaker Big Daddy? Did she not have
her as anything more than god-like powers? Why? There's no Siphon in Rapture like there was in Columbia to limit her abilities to just opening Tears.
** She panicked and hesitated
a random brunette woman, including Sander Cohen himself, despite moment too long (her dialog suggests she didn't want to hurt the fact Bouncer) and got backhanded across the room before she could use her powers.
** Unless I'm mistaken, doesn't her dialog later also suggest
that she apparently hasn't changed her outfit for two months.
** Cohen and
could see the splicers are all insane. Andrew and Atlas wouldn't care enough to bring future previously? If so, why didn't she see it up.
coming?
** Cohen is more cunning than he looks. When talking to Elizabeth, he refers to her as "my little Songbird" or something to It depends on your perspective, given Part 2. [[spoiler:On one hand, it could be argued that effect. Watching that conversation again, it seems he does know Elizabeth but is playing coy in front of Booker because he sees that's what just didn't care. As long as she didn't return to this reality, killing her there would have no real impact. However, it's sorta implied that Elizabeth is doing (and having such a joke at Booker's expense is exactly the sort of thing knew that dying, then incarnating there to become mortal would give Cohen serve a buzz). As for why no one else recognizes her, Cohen seems to run through apprentices at a prodigious rate, and also it can be surprisingly difficult to recognize someone standing right in front of you from a poster or from TV.
** Coming from
greater good by freeing the Little Sisters... but that theory, people would only hit themselves when they notice the poster, recall seeing "that girl" somewhere before-then realize they've just seen implies a famous celebrity.lot more.]]



[[folder: Little Sister torture in ''Burial at Sea'']]
* In the second episode of ''Burial at Sea'' Fontaine tortures a Little Sister by giving it a lobotomy while she is fully conscious. Why did this not cause a Big Daddy to come rampaging in? For the rest of the DLC there are Big Daddies all over who will attack just for looking at a Little Sister funny.
** Probably because her Daddy is dead, or at the very least occupied. If they can't hear her scream, they can't find her. All those Little Sisters you save/harvest in the other games couldn't call limitless Daddies to their aid, and neither can Sally.
** But wasn't the Big Daddy still alive? Or at least alive enough to kill Booker at the end of Episode One? Plus, considering the constant pairbond between the Little Sister and the Big Daddy, one has to wonder how they were separated to begin with.
** The Big Daddy was still alive when they kidnapped her. It's gone when Ryan invades, so it's safe to assume it's wandered off or they killed it. As for how they got separated, the Big Daddies summon the Little Sisters by pounding on vents. You spent the first episode making sure Sally was trapped in the vent system. With only one way out and the Daddy occupied elsewhere, they could grab and hide her. After that, it doesn't matter if the Daddy is alive or dead. Sally is in no position to call him, and Atlas is not going to leave her in a position where she could.

to:

[[folder: Little Sister torture So, why does Atlas let Sally go in the end?]]
* This is the one thing I don't get about the ending to
''Burial at Sea'']]
* In the second episode of ''Burial at Sea'' Fontaine tortures a Little Sister by giving it a lobotomy while she is fully conscious. Why did this not cause a Big Daddy to come rampaging in? For the rest of the
Sea part 2''. The DLC there are Big Daddies all over who will attack just goes to great lengths to show what an utter monster Atlas is, so it seems kind of odd for looking at a Little Sister funny.
** Probably because her Daddy is dead, or
him to let Sally go at the very least occupied. If they can't hear her scream, they can't find her. All those end, especially given how he'd repeatedly stated how valuable Little Sisters you save/harvest and their ADAM were. You'd think he'd just feed her to his Splicers after [[spoiler: murdering Elizabeth]].
** All that mattered to Atlas was having the Ace. He got so tied up in ordering his splicers about for the next phase of his master plan that he forgets Sally even exists. Either that, or he decides to let her go
in the other games couldn't call limitless Daddies to their aid, hopes that Jack will eventually find and neither can Sally.
** But wasn't the Big Daddy still alive? Or at least alive enough to
kill Booker at the end of Episode One? Plus, considering the constant pairbond between the Little Sister and the Big Daddy, one has to wonder how they were separated to begin with.
** The Big Daddy was still alive when they kidnapped her. It's gone when Ryan invades, so it's safe to assume it's wandered off or they killed it. As for how they got separated, the Big Daddies summon the Little Sisters by pounding on vents. You spent the first episode making sure Sally was trapped in the vent system. With only one way out and the Daddy occupied elsewhere, they could grab and hide her. After that, it doesn't matter if the Daddy is alive or dead. Sally is in no position to call him, and Atlas is not going to leave
her in a position where she could.to boost his power.



[[folder: Out of nowhere....Samurai]]
* So most of the tears that Elizabeth creates are reasonable as to how the things could possibly be there. Usually it's crates of health and ammo or putting in a piece of architecture that isn't there, but could easily have been. Or she brings in stuff like the Patriots. They are either "For want of a nail" sort of things that could have been made in rapture, or things stolen wholesale from a different dimension she knows well, namely Columbia. But where the hell do the samurai come from? What even are they? Robots like the Patriots from Columbia? Is this an alternate Rapture where Andrew Ryan was Japanese? Or real people? If the latter, why do they serve you instead of being confused as shit at being randomly transported from feudal Japan? The only possible explanation I can think of is that Elizabeth read them up somewhere (where? I don't see either Columbia or Rapture having historical books on the world's different cultures) and deemed them [[Main/RuleofCool too awesome to not summon.]]

to:

[[folder: Out of nowhere....Samurai]]
''BioShock 2'' considered noncanon?]]
* So most of the tears ''VideoGame/BioShock2'' implied that Elizabeth creates are reasonable as to how Suchong was killed by Delta. However,[[spoiler: we see Suchong killed by a random bouncer, and Suchong never actually succeeded in creating the things could possibly be there. Usually it's crates of health and ammo or putting in a piece of architecture that isn't there, but could easily have been. Or she brings in stuff like pair bond.]] Given the Patriots. They are either "For want of a nail" sort of things that could have been made in rapture, or things stolen wholesale from a different dimension she knows well, namely Columbia. But where the hell do the samurai come from? What even are they? Robots like the Patriots from Columbia? Is this an alternate Rapture where Andrew Ryan universes scheme of Infinite, technically everything and nothing is canon, but it kind of bothers me to see a direct canon conflict like this. What gives?
** Delta did not kill Suchong, nor
was Japanese? Or real people? it ever overtly implied that he did. No canon issues there.
** For the Meta reason, ''[=BioShock=] 2'' was not developed by Ken Levine's team, and in interviews they've mentioned not being particularly fond of it (to say the least). While making ''Burial at Sea'', they pretty much ignored ''[=BioShock=] 2'', although there's nothing that overtly renders it non-canon.
** While Delta is never stated to have killed Suchong, having his death occur on the New Year's Eve of the Kashmir renders the second game non-canon. Suchong's death is never given a specific date, but in the ''[=BioShock=] 2'' universe, it is explicitly stated that his death occurs prior to the creation of the Alpha series, because while the Big Daddy who killed him imprinted on the little sister, he would only react if she was in trouble or he needed her. He would otherwise wander off and do his own thing. Alexander surmises that this means there must be a stronger bond formed, because otherwise the Big Daddy will wander away and the little sister will be left defenseless. Thus Alpha series, and the conditioning that kills Delta if he's too far from Eleanor comes into play. Sofia Lamb takes Eleanor DURING the Kashmir attack. Eleanor and Delta, the first successful bonded pair of the Alpha series, are already functioning in their roles as a Little Sister and Big Daddy by the time the New Year's party attack happens.
If the latter, why do events of ''[=BioShock=] 2'' were to take place at all, Suchong has to have died BEFORE the New Year, in order to give time for the Alpha series to be created afterward, when Gil Alexander takes over the project, and for there to be three failed attempts to create the bonded pair before Eleanor and Delta are put together. By placing the death on the New Year, they serve you instead render the events of being confused as shit at being randomly transported from feudal Japan? The only the second game void.
** [[http://youtu.be/rciyCHa6J4o?t=46s This about sums it up]].
** [[MST3KMantra Don't think too much about it.]] I admit it is
possible explanation I can think of is that Elizabeth read them up somewhere (where? I don't see either Columbia or Rapture having historical books on missed something, but when it comes to the world's different cultures) and deemed them [[Main/RuleofCool too awesome timeline, Burial at Sea can't even seem to not summon.]]get itself consistent, let alone with Bioshock 2. To wit, Suchong's death in Episode 2 has him complaining about how they can't get the Big Daddies to protect the Sisters, but that's exactly what the one at the end of Episode 1 was doing.



[[folder: Saving Sally]]
* If Elizabeth was so intent on saving the little sisters, why didn't she just go back and smother Andrew Ryan in his crib, or something to that effect, to just wipe him out of the multiverse? She could have prevented not only the little sisters from being created, but also the thousands upon thousands of deaths that occur over the course of the Fall of Rapture.
** That worked with Booker because all that came from him originated with a single choice late in his life. Is she going to smother every single Ryan in every single universe?
** Yeah, that's exactly what she would do, since it's exactly what she did to Comstock before they retconned it to force Infinite to be a prequel to ''VideoGame/BioShock1''. It's not too far fetched to imagine that there was an event in Ryan's life that "made" him who he was; why couldn't she kill him at the point where he decided to build rapture?
** Also remember that despite how things appear, God!Elizabeth is not literally omnipotent. As the Luteces said: "There are rules, even for one such as you." We don't know precisely what she can't do, but apparently snapping her fingers and teleporting all the bad guys into the middle of the ocean is beyond her abilities. The implication is that she has to work within the bounds of the constants and variables that Booker has to deal with. So the only way to kill off both Ryan and Fontaine and rescue the maximum number of people (including the Sisters) was to [[spoiler:bring Jack to Rapture]].
** There's a difference between teleporting all of the bad guys to the middle of the ocean and stepping outside of all the universes to make a change that affects every universe simultaneously, which is literally what she did at the end of Infinite. This also implies that her and Booker are not playing by the same rules since Elizabeth actually eliminates one of the constants (the city) at the end of the main game.
** Again: She has rules. We don't know what they are. They probably should have elaborated on the rules more, but saying "We don't know what she can't do, therefore she should be able to do anything" is simply false. We know that one choice was the difference between Comstock and Booker; remove that choice, and Comstock is removed, as well as everything he ever did. We have no evidence to suggest that Ryan, Rapture, and Atlas would be so easy to deal with.
** True, but to flip that on its head, we have no evidence to suggest that Ryan, Rapture and Atlas would be at all HARD to deal with. There are justifications to be made, certainly, and many of them make sense... but there's little in the game's narrative to point to them. If the plot and character actions only work because "Magic works like this but not like this because we said so", there's something wrong with the story.
** Maybe she can affect Comstock/Booker's existence's because she's such a big part of their story, but she can't affect Ryan or anyone else to that extent because her existence doesn't tie in with theirs as much. Erasing someone in every possible timeline ever is a pretty major thing after all, it's possible she can only have that level of reality-warping power when she's dealing with people and/or events related to her.

to:

[[folder: Saving Sally]]
No one recognizes famous celebrity Elizabeth?]]
* If Elizabeth was so intent on saving is the hand-picked apprentice of Sander Cohen, who is Andrew Ryan's best pal. She has reached a level of fame such that her face is on advertising posters in the most lavish lounges the city has, and her singing voice is the radio for all to hear. Yet not a single person notices her as anything more than a random brunette woman, including Sander Cohen himself, despite the fact that she apparently hasn't changed her outfit for two months.
** Cohen and the splicers are all insane. Andrew and Atlas wouldn't care enough to bring it up.
** Cohen is more cunning than he looks. When talking to Elizabeth, he refers to her as "my
little sisters, why didn't she just go back and smother Andrew Ryan in his crib, Songbird" or something to that effect, to just wipe him out of the multiverse? She could have prevented not only the little sisters from being created, but also the thousands upon thousands of deaths effect. Watching that occur over the course conversation again, it seems he does know Elizabeth but is playing coy in front of the Fall of Rapture.
** That worked with
Booker because all that came from him originated with a single choice late in his life. Is she going to smother every single Ryan in every single universe?
** Yeah,
he sees that's exactly what she would do, since it's exactly what she did to Comstock before they retconned it to force Infinite to be a prequel to ''VideoGame/BioShock1''. It's not too far fetched to imagine that there was an event in Ryan's life that "made" him who he was; why couldn't she kill him at the point where he decided to build rapture?
** Also remember that despite how things appear, God!Elizabeth is not literally omnipotent. As the Luteces said: "There are rules, even for one such as you." We don't know precisely what she can't do, but apparently snapping her fingers and teleporting all the bad guys into the middle of the ocean is beyond her abilities. The implication is that she has to work within the bounds of the constants and variables that Booker has to deal with. So the only way to kill off both Ryan and Fontaine and rescue the maximum number of people (including the Sisters) was to [[spoiler:bring Jack to Rapture]].
** There's a difference between teleporting all of the bad guys to the middle of the ocean and stepping outside of all the universes to make a change that affects every universe simultaneously, which is literally what she did at the end of Infinite. This also implies that her and Booker are not playing by the same rules since
Elizabeth actually eliminates one of the constants (the city) at the end of the main game.
** Again: She has rules. We don't know what they are. They probably should have elaborated on the rules more, but saying "We don't know what she can't do, therefore she should be able to do anything"
is simply false. We know that one choice was the difference between Comstock and Booker; remove that choice, and Comstock is removed, as well as everything he ever did. We have no evidence to suggest that Ryan, Rapture, and Atlas would be so easy to deal with.
** True, but to flip that on its head, we have no evidence to suggest that Ryan, Rapture and Atlas would be at all HARD to deal with. There are justifications to be made, certainly, and many of them make sense... but there's little in the game's narrative to point to them. If the plot and character actions only work because "Magic works like this but not like this because we said so", there's something wrong with the story.
** Maybe she can affect Comstock/Booker's existence's because she's
doing (and having such a big part joke at Booker's expense is exactly the sort of their story, but she can't affect Ryan or anyone thing that would give Cohen a buzz). As for why no one else recognizes her, Cohen seems to that extent because her existence doesn't tie in with theirs as much. Erasing run through apprentices at a prodigious rate, and also it can be surprisingly difficult to recognize someone standing right in every possible timeline ever is front of you from a pretty major thing after all, it's possible she can only have poster or from TV.
** Coming from
that level of reality-warping power when she's dealing with theory, people and/or events related to her. would only hit themselves when they notice the poster, recall seeing "that girl" somewhere before-then realize they've just seen a famous celebrity.



[[folder: Elizabeth's Big Omniscient [[spoiler: Suicide]]]]
* Okay, this is why writers should never, ever give main characters godlike power: because after that point, they ''cannot be allowed to screw up.'' If Elizabeth was omniscient during operation Troll Bookerstock, she should have been able to see that she would, in fact, die horribly if she went forward with it. Furthermore, she should've been able to see that she'd be BroughtDownToNormal when she came back, get tortured, help a tyrant rise to power and ruin countless peoples' lives, etc. Sure, Human!Elizabeth was pretty much stuck with the choices she had. But Omniscient!Elizabeth should've been able to completely avoid all of that by coming at the problem from a different angle. Because, y'know, godlike powers and stuff.
** The only way any of this remotely makes sense is if Omniscient!Elizabeth essentially decided to punish and kill herself for her own loss of innocence, knowing that the Big Daddy would kill her, knowing what her future self would do, knowing the hell she'd be putting Sally through because of her bizarrely convoluted revenge on Comstock. Which is just ''deeply'' unpleasant.
** Yes, that is exactly right. Mortal!Elizabeth brings this up a couple times, demanding to know why she came up with such a convoluted plan while in god mode. She doesn't get a direct answer, but the implication is that there's a limited (though large) number of things she can do even at her most powerful, and getting knocked down to mortal, tortured, and helping Atlas bring Jack to Rapture was the best plan. Remember though, that despite fans (and Mortal!Elizabeth) referring to God!Elizabeth as TheOmniscient, she still has a human mind with human desires, which means human mistakes. The entire DLC would have gone much more smoothly if she had been willing to kill Bookerstock outright, but she insisted on making him suffer. "We [=DeWitts=] can never leave well enough alone."

to:

[[folder: Elizabeth's Big Omniscient [[spoiler: Suicide]]]]
Little Sister torture in ''Burial at Sea'']]
* Okay, In the second episode of ''Burial at Sea'' Fontaine tortures a Little Sister by giving it a lobotomy while she is fully conscious. Why did this is why writers should never, ever give main characters godlike power: not cause a Big Daddy to come rampaging in? For the rest of the DLC there are Big Daddies all over who will attack just for looking at a Little Sister funny.
** Probably
because after that point, they ''cannot be allowed to screw up.'' If Elizabeth was omniscient during operation Troll Bookerstock, she should have been able to see that she would, in fact, die horribly if she went forward with it. Furthermore, she should've been able to see that she'd be BroughtDownToNormal when she came back, get tortured, help a tyrant rise to power and ruin countless peoples' lives, etc. Sure, Human!Elizabeth was pretty much stuck with the choices she had. But Omniscient!Elizabeth should've been able to completely avoid all of that by coming her Daddy is dead, or at the problem from a different angle. Because, y'know, godlike powers very least occupied. If they can't hear her scream, they can't find her. All those Little Sisters you save/harvest in the other games couldn't call limitless Daddies to their aid, and stuff.
neither can Sally.
** The only way any of this remotely makes sense is if Omniscient!Elizabeth essentially decided to punish and kill herself for her own loss of innocence, knowing that But wasn't the Big Daddy would still alive? Or at least alive enough to kill her, knowing what her future self would do, knowing Booker at the hell she'd be putting end of Episode One? Plus, considering the constant pairbond between the Little Sister and the Big Daddy, one has to wonder how they were separated to begin with.
** The Big Daddy was still alive when they kidnapped her. It's gone when Ryan invades, so it's safe to assume it's wandered off or they killed it. As for how they got separated, the Big Daddies summon the Little Sisters by pounding on vents. You spent the first episode making sure
Sally through because of her bizarrely convoluted revenge on Comstock. Which is just ''deeply'' unpleasant.
** Yes, that is exactly right. Mortal!Elizabeth brings this up a couple times, demanding to know why she came up with such a convoluted plan while
was trapped in god mode. She the vent system. With only one way out and the Daddy occupied elsewhere, they could grab and hide her. After that, it doesn't get a direct answer, but matter if the implication Daddy is that there's a limited (though large) number of things she can do even at her most powerful, alive or dead. Sally is in no position to call him, and getting knocked down to mortal, tortured, and helping Atlas bring Jack is not going to Rapture was the best plan. Remember though, that despite fans (and Mortal!Elizabeth) referring to God!Elizabeth as TheOmniscient, she still has a human mind with human desires, which means human mistakes. The entire DLC would have gone much more smoothly if she had been willing to kill Bookerstock outright, but she insisted on making him suffer. "We [=DeWitts=] can never leave well enough alone."her in a position where she could.



[[folder: So Infinite is really [[spoiler: BioShock's prequel?]]]]
* Let me get this straight...everything Booker, Comstock and Elizabeth did in the past year was just to set-up the beginning of the original ''VideoGame/BioShock1?
** Yep, feel happy knowing that the girl you put so much effort into saving is just an accessory to the success of a faceless man from a game made ''seven years ago''.
** I feel more bad that Elizabeth, despite her godlike power, is DEAD.
** I was being sarcastic, Elizabeth's death was a gross disrespect to her character, because it reduced her and her entire character development to nothing more than a footnote in the backstory to a game that's been out for years, and killed her off in a way that didn't really make much sense. How is it some great sacrifice that she's dying to save Sally when that same sacrifice is also dooming nearly everyone else in Rapture? Not to mention it could have been easily avoided if she'd just opened up the Ace in the Hole, memorized what was on it, taken it to Atlas, destroyed it in front of him and then told him what was on it over the radio when she was far enough away from him with Sally definitely safe (because she only knew Sally would be safe ''after'' Atlas smashed her face in with the wrench, which doesn't sound like the best idea given how much effort she put into saving the emotionally manipulative little plot device).
** I blame the writers for running out of ideas.
** I wouldn't call ''setting off the entire events of the plot'' just a footnote, plus it's implied that the good ending of ''[=BioShock=]'' 1 is canon here, so by bringing Jack there she saved all of the Little Sisters and made it possible for them to all have normal lives on the surface - which also saves Sally, which makes up for her using the girl as a pawn in her revenge scheme in the first part. Also...maybe some version of her is still alive/omnipotent because of quantum whatsits.
** Her role is still reduced from main character to an accessory to the success of a faceless goon. Plus, it's not ''implied'' that the good ending is canon. It's outright stating that the good ending was canon. Which completely invalidates the moral choice aspect of the first game (which was also the only reason Jack didn't have a personality). The DLC seems to believe that Jack was on some moral crusade through Rapture, and that Liz's actions in the DLC are ultimately the right, heroic thing to do. Despite the fact that throughout the first game, it's made very clear that what happened in Rapture was a horrible tragedy (a tragedy that Liz helped cause) and saving the Little Sisters was making the best out of a bad situation.
** OP here: I have yet to actually PLAY the DLC, only seen the ending for both episodes...I would play them, but my bank account tells me otherwise.
** What about the other Comstocks? Does her death mean she won't be able to get rid of all of them? (especially since the DLC LIED about Booker's death in the main campaign being the end of every Comstock, ever)
** Essentially, yes. This DLC dropped that plotline in favour of drooling over the plot of the original game.
** A good point was made on the fridge page:
--->A lot of criticism has been aimed at the fact that Elizabeth lets herself become mortal [[spoiler: and sacrifices herself]] just so she can save Sally and the rest of the Little Sisters. But was it really just about saving Sally? No; she did everything she did because [[spoiler: it lead to Jack eventually bringing down Fontaine. Remember Fontaine's admitted goals in the first ''[=BioShock=]'': he eventually wanted to return to the surface with his new empire. At worst he would have subjugated the world with an army of jacked-up (if mentally unstable) super humans. At best, he would have put ADAM on the market and [[CrapsackWorld turned the surface into a copy of Rapture]]. Much like Booker saw a future where Columbia ended up destroying the surface, Elizabeth likely saw a future where Fontaine brought ADAM to the surface and caused a decline in society like what happened in Rapture]]. The parallels are even more obvious when you compare them to [[spoiler: the revelation that Daisy Fitzroy demonized and sacrificed herself to eventually bring Comstock's end]]: this was bigger than saving just the Little Sisters, [[spoiler: this was about saving the ''entire world'']].
** So yeah, Elizabeth is ''still'' important-just posthumously.
** However, there's two problems with this: first of all, Columbia didn't just pose a threat to the world, it posed a threat to other dimensions as well; Future!Elizabeth herself claimed that once "the Sodom Below" had fallen, the city would move to another reality and conquer that too, and then onto the next after that, and so on. As horrific as the world under Fontaine's rule or widespread ADAM addiction would be, it doesn't extend to other dimensions just yet - though it might be possible if Fontaine got his hands on some of Suchong's deeper secrets. Secondly, Elizabeth's solution to the Rapture problem isn't as thorough as the solution to Columbia: killing Comstock before he created Columbia and set the ball in motion stopped Columbia's threat by removing all incarnations of it from the multiverse, wiping out all dimensions that stemmed from the baptism... or at least it ''should'' have up until Elizabeth started visiting it for some reason, but that's a gripe for another day. The point is, Rapture exists in other dimensions, and this solution was only enacted in one of them. Now, unless I'm just so upset by this DLC that I've missed some important clue, isn't it somewhat logical to assume that there are dimensions where ADAM and Splicing ended up being transplanted to the surface anyway? Even if Fontaine never could have escaped from the sunken department store without Elizabeth's help, even if Jack harvesting the Little Sisters is ''' '' somehow'' ''' made absolutely impossible (which I still find doubtful at best), surely there would have been others that might have been able and willing to capitalize on it.
** In that case, you're all probably just very, very upset. I suggest we leave this section alone before it incites more arguments.

to:

[[folder: Out of nowhere....Samurai]]
*
So Infinite is really [[spoiler: BioShock's prequel?]]]]
* Let me get this straight...everything Booker, Comstock and
most of the tears that Elizabeth did in creates are reasonable as to how the past year was just to set-up the beginning things could possibly be there. Usually it's crates of the original ''VideoGame/BioShock1?
** Yep, feel happy knowing
health and ammo or putting in a piece of architecture that isn't there, but could easily have been. Or she brings in stuff like the girl you put so much effort into saving is just an accessory to the success Patriots. They are either "For want of a faceless man from a game made ''seven years ago''.
** I feel more bad
nail" sort of things that Elizabeth, despite her godlike power, is DEAD.
** I was being sarcastic, Elizabeth's death was a gross disrespect to her character, because it reduced her and her entire character development to nothing more than a footnote in the backstory to a game that's been out for years, and killed her off in a way that didn't really make much sense. How is it some great sacrifice that she's dying to save Sally when that same sacrifice is also dooming nearly everyone else in Rapture? Not to mention it
could have been easily avoided if she'd just opened up the Ace made in the Hole, memorized what was on it, taken it to Atlas, destroyed it in front of him and then told him what was on it over the radio when she was far enough away rapture, or things stolen wholesale from him with Sally definitely safe (because a different dimension she only knew Sally would be safe ''after'' Atlas smashed her face in with knows well, namely Columbia. But where the wrench, which doesn't sound hell do the samurai come from? What even are they? Robots like the best idea given how much effort she put into saving Patriots from Columbia? Is this an alternate Rapture where Andrew Ryan was Japanese? Or real people? If the emotionally manipulative little plot device).
** I blame the writers for running out
latter, why do they serve you instead of ideas.
** I wouldn't call ''setting off the entire events of the plot'' just a footnote, plus it's implied that the good ending of ''[=BioShock=]'' 1 is canon here, so by bringing Jack there she saved all of the Little Sisters and made it
being confused as shit at being randomly transported from feudal Japan? The only possible for them to all have normal lives on the surface - which also saves Sally, which makes up for her using the girl as a pawn in her revenge scheme in the first part. Also...maybe some version explanation I can think of her is still alive/omnipotent because of quantum whatsits.
** Her role is still reduced from main character to an accessory to the success of a faceless goon. Plus, it's not ''implied'' that the good ending is canon. It's outright stating that the good ending was canon. Which completely invalidates the moral choice aspect of the first game (which was also the only reason Jack didn't have a personality). The DLC seems to believe that Jack was on some moral crusade through Rapture, and that Liz's actions in the DLC are ultimately the right, heroic thing to do. Despite the fact that throughout the first game, it's made very clear that what happened in Rapture was a horrible tragedy (a tragedy that Liz helped cause) and saving the Little Sisters was making the best out of a bad situation.
** OP here: I have yet to actually PLAY the DLC, only seen the ending for both episodes...I would play them, but my bank account tells me otherwise.
** What about the other Comstocks? Does her death mean she won't be able to get rid of all of them? (especially since the DLC LIED about Booker's death in the main campaign being the end of every Comstock, ever)
** Essentially, yes. This DLC dropped that plotline in favour of drooling over the plot of the original game.
** A good point was made on the fridge page:
--->A lot of criticism has been aimed at the fact
that Elizabeth lets herself become mortal [[spoiler: and sacrifices herself]] just so she can save Sally and the rest of the Little Sisters. But was it really just about saving Sally? No; she did everything she did because [[spoiler: it lead to Jack eventually bringing down Fontaine. Remember Fontaine's admitted goals in the first ''[=BioShock=]'': he eventually wanted to return to the surface with his new empire. At worst he would have subjugated the world with an army of jacked-up (if mentally unstable) super humans. At best, he would have put ADAM on the market and [[CrapsackWorld turned the surface into a copy of Rapture]]. Much like Booker saw a future where read them up somewhere (where? I don't see either Columbia ended up destroying the surface, Elizabeth likely saw a future where Fontaine brought ADAM to the surface and caused a decline in society like what happened in Rapture]]. The parallels are even more obvious when you compare them to [[spoiler: the revelation that Daisy Fitzroy demonized and sacrificed herself to eventually bring Comstock's end]]: this was bigger than saving just the Little Sisters, [[spoiler: this was about saving the ''entire world'']].
** So yeah, Elizabeth is ''still'' important-just posthumously.
** However, there's two problems with this: first of all, Columbia didn't just pose a threat to the world, it posed a threat to other dimensions as well; Future!Elizabeth herself claimed that once "the Sodom Below" had fallen, the city would move to another reality and conquer that too, and then onto the next after that, and so on. As horrific as the world under Fontaine's rule
or widespread ADAM addiction would be, it doesn't extend to other dimensions just yet - though it might be possible if Fontaine got his hands on some of Suchong's deeper secrets. Secondly, Elizabeth's solution to the Rapture problem isn't as thorough as having historical books on the solution to Columbia: killing Comstock before he created Columbia world's different cultures) and set the ball in motion stopped Columbia's threat by removing all incarnations of it from the multiverse, wiping out all dimensions that stemmed from the baptism... or at least it ''should'' have up until Elizabeth started visiting it for some reason, but that's a gripe for another day. The point is, Rapture exists in other dimensions, and this solution was only enacted in one of them. Now, unless I'm just so upset by this DLC that I've missed some important clue, isn't it somewhat logical deemed them [[Main/RuleofCool too awesome to assume that there are dimensions where ADAM and Splicing ended up being transplanted to the surface anyway? Even if Fontaine never could have escaped from the sunken department store without Elizabeth's help, even if Jack harvesting the Little Sisters is ''' '' somehow'' ''' made absolutely impossible (which I still find doubtful at best), surely there would have been others that might have been able and willing to capitalize on it.
** In that case, you're all probably just very, very upset. I suggest we leave this section alone before it incites more arguments.
not summon.]]



[[folder: So why was [[spoiler: threatening to lobotomize Sally a good idea?]]]]
* After Liz dares Atlas to lobotomise her, mentioning that if he does so he'll never get his Ace in the Hole, he switches tactic and goes to lobotomise Sally. Why on earth would that be a good idea, given that Liz was only working with Atlas so he wouldn't hurt Sally. If he hurts her, he has nothing to hold over Liz and she'd never have to give up that information. He won't kill Liz because she has something he wants, and he shouldn't have been able to threaten Sally for that same reason.
** He was expecting her to break before Sally did. And she did. The difference here is that if she hadn't broken before he lobotomized Sally, then Atlas could have found something else to threaten her with. But if he lobotomized Elizabeth, well, that's the end of it. You can't interrogate a drooling moron. Besides, as a Little Sister, Sally might have actually been able to recover from it, though it would have hurt a LOT.
** I think you're missing the point, Liz had nothing else that could be used against her. Atlas was convinced that she had information that made her too valuable to kill or lobotomize, and threatening the one thing that had guaranteed her cooperation until that point is just utterly stupid. Liz only broke because the story dictated she should, despite the fact that by all rights she should have been able to play Atlas like a fiddle at that point.
** Elizabeth is a compassionate young woman who doesn't want to see a little girl get tortured in front of her. Atlas knew that, and decided to torture a little girl in front of her to get her to talk, which worked. This isn't complicated. It would have worked on a ''lot'' of people. It was a risk, yes, in that if Atlas was forced to go through with it he would have had no obvious leverage, but he wasn't, so he didn't.
** Elizabeth is compassionate, yes, but she isn't stupid. Quite the opposite, and she proved throughout Episode One that she's a skilled manipulator when she wants to be. If she'd dared Atlas to go through with it he'd have had to stop because he'd lose any leverage he has. If he lobotomises Liz, he loses the best lead he has at getting his Ace in the Hole, if he lobotomises Sally, she has no more reason to cooperate and he loses the best lead he has at getting his Ace in the Hole. Liz, by virtue of Atlas just assuming she knows what his Ace in the Hole is, technically has just as much, if not more, leverage over him than he has over her by that point. It's just that the plot demanded that instead of actually using her brain, her strongest asset, Liz should have a mental breakdown so her mental version of Booker could tell her what to do.
** She wasn't exactly in a rational state of mind at that point, because she had just been tortured, and Sally was about to be lobotomized in front of her. This would have worked on very nearly ''anyone'', and Elizabeth is not exactly used to being tortured or anything of the sort. And her mental Booker is just the form the last vestiges of her omniscience takes.
** She was holding it fairly well together when she dared him to lobotomise her. But even then, it still raises the question of why Atlas would bother when she was his best lead to finding the Ace. He didn't know her mental state was taking a nosedive and he'd seen how clever Liz is. Why on earth would he put that at risk by threatening her when it could very easily have backfired in his face?
** First, we don't know if Atlas would have carried out the threat. What he knows is that Elizabeth was willing to walk through all manner of hell to save Sally, willing to risk her own life for Sally's sake. While lobotomizing Sally might've somehow made Elizabeth even LESS likely to cooperate (...which would be hard, given that Atlas was just torturing Elizabeth for information), its more likely that Atlas figured Elizabeth would give up the info to save Sally... given everything else she's done to save Sally. And, hey, if Elizabeth still isn't fazed... well, the brain's still in there, just need to find another way to get at it.
** I guess that's what's confusing me there, because Atlas is Fontaine, who isn't really the type to play such a risk, especially with someone he's only known for a few hours, and has only one known method of controlling. I mean in the first game, he had complete control over Jack and when he lost that he still had his failsafe codephrase (which makes me wonder how he had that when he didn't have Would You Kindly) to shut Jack down, and only lost that because Tenenbaum was smarter and Jack more persistent than he gave them credit for. It doesn't really make sense for him to threaten his only method of ensuring Liz's cooperation when he's aware how smart she is and could very easily ''lose'' that cooperation now that he's revealed how vital she is to his plans.
** Elizabeth ''isn't'' cooperating. She was cooperating when she said she'd get them back to Rapture. Now that's done, and Atlas wants the information she supposedly has, information Elizabeth is refusing to divulge. There's no benefit to not harming Sally now. She's only useful as a tool to get Elizabeth to talk. If she talks, then he wins. If she doesn't, no skin off his back. She wasn't talking anyway, so he's lost nothing by torturing Sally.

to:

[[folder: So Saving Sally]]
* If Elizabeth was so intent on saving the little sisters,
why was [[spoiler: threatening to lobotomize Sally a good idea?]]]]
* After Liz dares Atlas to lobotomise her, mentioning that if he does so he'll never get
didn't she just go back and smother Andrew Ryan in his Ace in the Hole, he switches tactic and goes to lobotomise Sally. Why on earth would that be a good idea, given that Liz was only working with Atlas so he wouldn't hurt Sally. If he hurts her, he has nothing to hold over Liz and she'd never have to give up that information. He won't kill Liz because she has crib, or something he wants, and he shouldn't have been able to threaten Sally for that same reason.
** He was expecting her
effect, to break before Sally did. And she did. The difference here is that if she hadn't broken before he lobotomized Sally, then Atlas just wipe him out of the multiverse? She could have found something else prevented not only the little sisters from being created, but also the thousands upon thousands of deaths that occur over the course of the Fall of Rapture.
** That worked with Booker because all that came from him originated with a single choice late in his life. Is she going
to threaten her with. But if he lobotomized Elizabeth, well, smother every single Ryan in every single universe?
** Yeah,
that's the end of it. You can't interrogate a drooling moron. Besides, as a Little Sister, Sally might have actually been able to recover from it, though it exactly what she would have hurt do, since it's exactly what she did to Comstock before they retconned it to force Infinite to be a LOT.
** I think you're missing the point, Liz had nothing else
prequel to ''VideoGame/BioShock1''. It's not too far fetched to imagine that could be used against her. Atlas there was convinced an event in Ryan's life that "made" him who he was; why couldn't she had information that made her too valuable to kill or lobotomize, and threatening him at the one thing that had guaranteed her cooperation until that point is just utterly stupid. Liz only broke because the story dictated she should, despite the fact that by all rights she should have been able to play Atlas like a fiddle at that point.
** Elizabeth is a compassionate young woman who doesn't want to see a little girl get tortured in front of her. Atlas knew that, and
where he decided to torture a little girl in front of her to get her to talk, which worked. This isn't complicated. It would have worked on a ''lot'' of people. It was a risk, yes, in build rapture?
** Also remember
that if Atlas was forced to go through with it he would have had no obvious leverage, but he wasn't, so he didn't.
** Elizabeth is compassionate, yes, but she isn't stupid. Quite the opposite, and she proved throughout Episode One that she's a skilled manipulator when she wants to be. If she'd dared Atlas to go through with it he'd have had to stop because he'd lose any leverage he has. If he lobotomises Liz, he loses the best lead he has at getting his Ace in the Hole, if he lobotomises Sally, she has no more reason to cooperate and he loses the best lead he has at getting his Ace in the Hole. Liz, by virtue of Atlas just assuming she knows what his Ace in the Hole is, technically has just as much, if not more, leverage over him than he has over her by that point. It's just that the plot demanded that instead of actually using her brain, her strongest asset, Liz should have a mental breakdown so her mental version of Booker could tell her what to do.
** She wasn't exactly in a rational state of mind at that point, because she had just been tortured, and Sally was about to be lobotomized in front of her. This would have worked on very nearly ''anyone'', and Elizabeth
despite how things appear, God!Elizabeth is not exactly used to being tortured or anything of literally omnipotent. As the sort. And her mental Booker is just the form the last vestiges of her omniscience takes.
** She was holding it fairly well together when she dared him to lobotomise her. But
Luteces said: "There are rules, even then, it still raises the question of why Atlas would bother when she was his best lead to finding the Ace. He didn't know her mental state was taking a nosedive and he'd seen how clever Liz is. Why on earth would he put that at risk by threatening her when it could very easily have backfired in his face?
** First, we
for one such as you." We don't know if precisely what she can't do, but apparently snapping her fingers and teleporting all the bad guys into the middle of the ocean is beyond her abilities. The implication is that she has to work within the bounds of the constants and variables that Booker has to deal with. So the only way to kill off both Ryan and Fontaine and rescue the maximum number of people (including the Sisters) was to [[spoiler:bring Jack to Rapture]].
** There's a difference between teleporting all of the bad guys to the middle of the ocean and stepping outside of all the universes to make a change that affects every universe simultaneously, which is literally what she did at the end of Infinite. This also implies that her and Booker are not playing by the same rules since Elizabeth actually eliminates one of the constants (the city) at the end of the main game.
** Again: She has rules. We don't know what they are. They probably should have elaborated on the rules more, but saying "We don't know what she can't do, therefore she should be able to do anything" is simply false. We know that one choice was the difference between Comstock and Booker; remove that choice, and Comstock is removed, as well as everything he ever did. We have no evidence to suggest that Ryan, Rapture, and
Atlas would be so easy to deal with.
** True, but to flip that on its head, we
have carried out the threat. What he knows is no evidence to suggest that Elizabeth was willing to walk through all manner of hell to save Sally, willing to risk her own life for Sally's sake. While lobotomizing Sally might've somehow made Elizabeth even LESS likely to cooperate (...which Ryan, Rapture and Atlas would be hard, given that Atlas was just torturing Elizabeth for information), its more likely that Atlas figured Elizabeth would give up at all HARD to deal with. There are justifications to be made, certainly, and many of them make sense... but there's little in the info game's narrative to save Sally... given everything else point to them. If the plot and character actions only work because "Magic works like this but not like this because we said so", there's something wrong with the story.
** Maybe she can affect Comstock/Booker's existence's because
she's done such a big part of their story, but she can't affect Ryan or anyone else to save Sally. And, hey, if Elizabeth still isn't fazed... well, the brain's still in there, just need to find another way to get at it.
** I guess that's what's confusing me there,
that extent because Atlas is Fontaine, who isn't really the type to play such a risk, especially with someone he's only known for a few hours, and has only one known method of controlling. I mean in the first game, he had complete control over Jack and when he lost that he still had his failsafe codephrase (which makes me wonder how he had that when he didn't have Would You Kindly) to shut Jack down, and only lost that because Tenenbaum was smarter and Jack more persistent than he gave them credit for. It her existence doesn't really make sense for him to threaten his tie in with theirs as much. Erasing someone in every possible timeline ever is a pretty major thing after all, it's possible she can only method have that level of ensuring Liz's cooperation reality-warping power when he's aware how smart she is and could very easily ''lose'' that cooperation now that he's revealed how vital she is she's dealing with people and/or events related to his plans.
** Elizabeth ''isn't'' cooperating. She was cooperating when she said she'd get them back to Rapture. Now that's done, and Atlas wants the information she supposedly has, information Elizabeth is refusing to divulge. There's no benefit to not harming Sally now. She's only useful as a tool to get Elizabeth to talk. If she talks, then he wins. If she doesn't, no skin off his back. She wasn't talking anyway, so he's lost nothing by torturing Sally.
her.



[[folder: Why was Sally important?]]
* There are equally infinite universes in which Sally literally does not exist, and also equally many in which Sally doesn't get turned into a little sister, as well as equally many where Sally does get turned into a little sister and can't be saved. Why does one version of one girl who may or may not exist depending on whatever door Elizabeth arbitrarily walks into matter so much?
** Because one ending of a game that came out 7 years ago is more important than the entirety of ''[=BioShock=] Infinite'' and its characters, apparently.
** It's even worse than that. Sally and the other Little Sisters are more important than everyone alive in Rapture (who were not all terrible people, mind you) and everyone on the plane that Jack hijacked. The problem is that the fate of Rapture is a horrific tragedy, and saving the Little Sisters just a case of salvaging a little good out of the mess. Ep2, for all its good, tries to turn the original ''[=BioShock=]'' into a noble adventure. One might be able to argue that this was the only way the Little Sisters could be saved... but that's never implied in Ep1 or 2.
** When weighed on a grand scale, yes, it seems Sally's life and those of the other Little Sisters are rather insignificant compared to everyone in Rapture, but then, Elizabeth isn't acting according to that metric. She's fixated on Sally, on saving this one little girl whom she wronged, to the neglect of all else. She's entirely willing to march straight to her own death if it means she can fix the problem she caused. Whether this is ultimately a selfish or selfless motive is subject to interpretation, of course, but it is nonetheless the reason ''why'' Sally is important ''to Elizabeth''.
** One theory on the web says that this is the Luteces' doing, that they've seen how one man can topple a dystopian empire by accident, and were stringing Elizabeth along to end Rapture. So they were using reverse psychology to make Elizabeth think that Sally was important, when it was her pursuit of Sally that was the really important thing.

to:

[[folder: Why Elizabeth's Big Omniscient [[spoiler: Suicide]]]]
* Okay, this is why writers should never, ever give main characters godlike power: because after that point, they ''cannot be allowed to screw up.'' If Elizabeth
was omniscient during operation Troll Bookerstock, she should have been able to see that she would, in fact, die horribly if she went forward with it. Furthermore, she should've been able to see that she'd be BroughtDownToNormal when she came back, get tortured, help a tyrant rise to power and ruin countless peoples' lives, etc. Sure, Human!Elizabeth was pretty much stuck with the choices she had. But Omniscient!Elizabeth should've been able to completely avoid all of that by coming at the problem from a different angle. Because, y'know, godlike powers and stuff.
** The only way any of this remotely makes sense is if Omniscient!Elizabeth essentially decided to punish and kill herself for her own loss of innocence, knowing that the Big Daddy would kill her, knowing what her future self would do, knowing the hell she'd be putting
Sally important?]]
* There are equally infinite universes
through because of her bizarrely convoluted revenge on Comstock. Which is just ''deeply'' unpleasant.
** Yes, that is exactly right. Mortal!Elizabeth brings this up a couple times, demanding to know why she came up with such a convoluted plan while
in which Sally literally does not exist, and also equally many in which Sally god mode. She doesn't get turned into a little sister, as well as equally many where Sally does get turned into a little sister and can't be saved. Why does one version of one girl who may or may not exist depending on whatever door Elizabeth arbitrarily walks into matter so much?
** Because one ending of a game
direct answer, but the implication is that came out 7 years ago is more important than the entirety there's a limited (though large) number of ''[=BioShock=] Infinite'' and its characters, apparently.
** It's
things she can do even worse than that. Sally at her most powerful, and the other Little Sisters are more important than everyone alive in getting knocked down to mortal, tortured, and helping Atlas bring Jack to Rapture (who were not all terrible people, mind you) and everyone on the plane that Jack hijacked. The problem is that the fate of Rapture is a horrific tragedy, and saving the Little Sisters just a case of salvaging a little good out of the mess. Ep2, for all its good, tries to turn the original ''[=BioShock=]'' into a noble adventure. One might be able to argue that this was the only way the Little Sisters could be saved... but that's never implied in Ep1 or 2.
** When weighed on a grand scale, yes, it seems Sally's life and those of the other Little Sisters are rather insignificant compared to everyone in Rapture, but then, Elizabeth isn't acting according to
best plan. Remember though, that metric. She's fixated on Sally, on saving this one little girl whom despite fans (and Mortal!Elizabeth) referring to God!Elizabeth as TheOmniscient, she wronged, to the neglect of all else. She's entirely still has a human mind with human desires, which means human mistakes. The entire DLC would have gone much more smoothly if she had been willing to march straight to her own death if it means kill Bookerstock outright, but she insisted on making him suffer. "We [=DeWitts=] can fix the problem she caused. Whether this is ultimately a selfish or selfless motive is subject to interpretation, of course, but it is nonetheless the reason ''why'' Sally is important ''to Elizabeth''.
** One theory on the web says that this is the Luteces' doing, that they've seen how one man can topple a dystopian empire by accident, and were stringing Elizabeth along to end Rapture. So they were using reverse psychology to make Elizabeth think that Sally was important, when it was her pursuit of Sally that was the really important thing.
never leave well enough alone."



[[folder: The original Elizabeth's fate?]]
* Ken Levine made a point of stressing the fact that Burial at Sea - Episode 1's Elizabeth was the Elizabeth we played beside all this time through the original B:I game. Then in episode 2...she dies offscreen, in the first five minutes of the game?
** [[spoiler:Elizabeth's a bit godlike in powers at the time of her death, so that doesn't actually kill her. It just kills her form in that world. According to an audiolog you get later in the game, Rosalind Lutece says that if someone like her or Elizabeth incarnates in a reality where they died, they'd become mortal once again, which is what Elizabeth did: Returns to the same universe she and the remaining Comstock died in, so that she would become mortal.]] I think. Honestly, once you get into alternate realities and godlike beings and stuff... it gets a touch confusing.

to:

[[folder: The So Infinite is really [[spoiler: BioShock's prequel?]]]]
* Let me get this straight...everything Booker, Comstock and Elizabeth did in the past year was just to set-up the beginning of the
original ''VideoGame/BioShock1?
** Yep, feel happy knowing that the girl you put so much effort into saving is just an accessory to the success of a faceless man from a game made ''seven years ago''.
** I feel more bad that Elizabeth, despite her godlike power, is DEAD.
** I was being sarcastic,
Elizabeth's fate?]]
* Ken Levine
death was a gross disrespect to her character, because it reduced her and her entire character development to nothing more than a footnote in the backstory to a game that's been out for years, and killed her off in a way that didn't really make much sense. How is it some great sacrifice that she's dying to save Sally when that same sacrifice is also dooming nearly everyone else in Rapture? Not to mention it could have been easily avoided if she'd just opened up the Ace in the Hole, memorized what was on it, taken it to Atlas, destroyed it in front of him and then told him what was on it over the radio when she was far enough away from him with Sally definitely safe (because she only knew Sally would be safe ''after'' Atlas smashed her face in with the wrench, which doesn't sound like the best idea given how much effort she put into saving the emotionally manipulative little plot device).
** I blame the writers for running out of ideas.
** I wouldn't call ''setting off the entire events of the plot'' just a footnote, plus it's implied that the good ending of ''[=BioShock=]'' 1 is canon here, so by bringing Jack there she saved all of the Little Sisters and
made it possible for them to all have normal lives on the surface - which also saves Sally, which makes up for her using the girl as a point pawn in her revenge scheme in the first part. Also...maybe some version of stressing her is still alive/omnipotent because of quantum whatsits.
** Her role is still reduced from main character to an accessory to the success of a faceless goon. Plus, it's not ''implied'' that the good ending is canon. It's outright stating that the good ending was canon. Which completely invalidates the moral choice aspect of the first game (which was also the only reason Jack didn't have a personality). The DLC seems to believe that Jack was on some moral crusade through Rapture, and that Liz's actions in the DLC are ultimately the right, heroic thing to do. Despite
the fact that Burial at Sea - Episode 1's Elizabeth throughout the first game, it's made very clear that what happened in Rapture was a horrible tragedy (a tragedy that Liz helped cause) and saving the Elizabeth we played beside Little Sisters was making the best out of a bad situation.
** OP here: I have yet to actually PLAY the DLC, only seen the ending for both episodes...I would play them, but my bank account tells me otherwise.
** What about the other Comstocks? Does her death mean she won't be able to get rid of
all this time through of them? (especially since the DLC LIED about Booker's death in the main campaign being the end of every Comstock, ever)
** Essentially, yes. This DLC dropped that plotline in favour of drooling over the plot of
the original B:I game. Then in episode 2...she dies offscreen, in game.
** A good point was made on
the first five minutes fridge page:
--->A lot
of the game?
** [[spoiler:Elizabeth's a bit godlike in powers
criticism has been aimed at the time of her death, so fact that doesn't actually kill her. It just kills her form in that world. According to an audiolog you get later in the game, Rosalind Lutece says that if someone like her or Elizabeth incarnates in a reality where they died, they'd lets herself become mortal once again, which is what [[spoiler: and sacrifices herself]] just so she can save Sally and the rest of the Little Sisters. But was it really just about saving Sally? No; she did everything she did because [[spoiler: it lead to Jack eventually bringing down Fontaine. Remember Fontaine's admitted goals in the first ''[=BioShock=]'': he eventually wanted to return to the surface with his new empire. At worst he would have subjugated the world with an army of jacked-up (if mentally unstable) super humans. At best, he would have put ADAM on the market and [[CrapsackWorld turned the surface into a copy of Rapture]]. Much like Booker saw a future where Columbia ended up destroying the surface, Elizabeth did: Returns likely saw a future where Fontaine brought ADAM to the same universe she surface and caused a decline in society like what happened in Rapture]]. The parallels are even more obvious when you compare them to [[spoiler: the remaining revelation that Daisy Fitzroy demonized and sacrificed herself to eventually bring Comstock's end]]: this was bigger than saving just the Little Sisters, [[spoiler: this was about saving the ''entire world'']].
** So yeah, Elizabeth is ''still'' important-just posthumously.
** However, there's two problems with this: first of all, Columbia didn't just pose a threat to the world, it posed a threat to other dimensions as well; Future!Elizabeth herself claimed that once "the Sodom Below" had fallen, the city would move to another reality and conquer that too, and then onto the next after that, and so on. As horrific as the world under Fontaine's rule or widespread ADAM addiction would be, it doesn't extend to other dimensions just yet - though it might be possible if Fontaine got his hands on some of Suchong's deeper secrets. Secondly, Elizabeth's solution to the Rapture problem isn't as thorough as the solution to Columbia: killing
Comstock died in, so before he created Columbia and set the ball in motion stopped Columbia's threat by removing all incarnations of it from the multiverse, wiping out all dimensions that she stemmed from the baptism... or at least it ''should'' have up until Elizabeth started visiting it for some reason, but that's a gripe for another day. The point is, Rapture exists in other dimensions, and this solution was only enacted in one of them. Now, unless I'm just so upset by this DLC that I've missed some important clue, isn't it somewhat logical to assume that there are dimensions where ADAM and Splicing ended up being transplanted to the surface anyway? Even if Fontaine never could have escaped from the sunken department store without Elizabeth's help, even if Jack harvesting the Little Sisters is ''' '' somehow'' ''' made absolutely impossible (which I still find doubtful at best), surely there would become mortal.]] I think. Honestly, once you get into alternate realities have been others that might have been able and godlike beings and stuff... willing to capitalize on it.
** In that case, you're all probably just very, very upset. I suggest we leave this section alone before
it gets a touch confusing.incites more arguments.



[[folder: Codes and Ciphers]]
* Why would Suchong encode his personal notes, meant solely for his own use and eyes, from broken English instead of fluent Korean?
** For the last one, since it was the control code, it would have had to be in English. If he wrote it in Korean and then forgot how precisely it was supposed to be translated, the code would be lost. As for the rest, it's harder to say.
** Notes can be stolen, as Elizabeth does. He had to abandon the tear lab, after all. If he doesn't want his work getting out, particularly sensitive work like Jack's conditioning, the encoding it makes sense.
** We're not saying the encoding them didn't make sense, we're asking why he encoded most of them, most of which were likely to be personal notes for himself, in broken English instead of his native language.
** It doesn't matter who they're for, someone can still find them and discover something he may not want to share. It is going a bit far for Big Daddy drill notes and that other mundane stuff, I'll admit, but it's easier to encode everything in a system you're familiar with than picking and choosing on a per-case basis. As for his choice of code, broken English means less coding. He can jot down simple notes relatively quickly on a paper rather than several for entire paragraphs.
** Yes, but he could still do that in coded Korean instead of going the extra effort of writing it down in coded English, which seems rather pointless when a lot of the notes are for his eyes only.
** First of all, Suchong is a Chinese name. He spent time in Korea, but he himself was apparently Chinese. In that context, consider that written Chinese isn't alphabetic and isn't inherently phonetic. A Chinese character doesn't represent a sound so much as a meaning, and there can be an awful lot of wildly different characters associated with a single sound. As such, I can only imagine encoding messages in Chinese without the obvious use of other Chinese characters would be absolutely agonizingly difficult. Any fluent Chinese-speaking tropers, feel free to correct me here. Alternative possibility: The code is in written in Chinese, but since Elizabeth is presented as a polymath extraordinaire, she learned how to read Chinese during her captivity. The rest is just TranslationConvention for the player's sake.
** Suchong might have personal reasons why he doesn't use his native language. A lot of people in Rapture are trying to distance themselves from their old lives on the surface- maybe this is his way of rejecting his old country. Alternatively, maybe he learned English by taking a "speak English" plasmid that didn't work so well, and now his brain can only operate in broken English.
** English, as a phonetic alphabet, is a million times easier to encode than Korean/Chinese/whatever. For English, you can make a relatively simple cipher that can be tough to break due to the fact English only has 26 different letters, whereas Chinese has characters numbering in the hundreds, making them impossible to code efficiently.
** Korean is also a phonetic alphabet.

to:

[[folder: Codes So why was [[spoiler: threatening to lobotomize Sally a good idea?]]]]
* After Liz dares Atlas to lobotomise her, mentioning that if he does so he'll never get his Ace in the Hole, he switches tactic
and Ciphers]]
*
goes to lobotomise Sally. Why on earth would Suchong encode his personal notes, meant solely that be a good idea, given that Liz was only working with Atlas so he wouldn't hurt Sally. If he hurts her, he has nothing to hold over Liz and she'd never have to give up that information. He won't kill Liz because she has something he wants, and he shouldn't have been able to threaten Sally for his own use and eyes, from that same reason.
** He was expecting her to break before Sally did. And she did. The difference here is that if she hadn't
broken English instead of fluent Korean?
** For
before he lobotomized Sally, then Atlas could have found something else to threaten her with. But if he lobotomized Elizabeth, well, that's the last one, since it was the control code, end of it. You can't interrogate a drooling moron. Besides, as a Little Sister, Sally might have actually been able to recover from it, though it would have hurt a LOT.
** I think you're missing the point, Liz
had nothing else that could be used against her. Atlas was convinced that she had information that made her too valuable to be in English. If he wrote it in Korean kill or lobotomize, and then forgot how precisely it was supposed to be translated, threatening the code would be lost. As for one thing that had guaranteed her cooperation until that point is just utterly stupid. Liz only broke because the rest, it's harder story dictated she should, despite the fact that by all rights she should have been able to say.
play Atlas like a fiddle at that point.
** Notes can be stolen, as Elizabeth does. He had to abandon the tear lab, after all. If he is a compassionate young woman who doesn't want his work to see a little girl get tortured in front of her. Atlas knew that, and decided to torture a little girl in front of her to get her to talk, which worked. This isn't complicated. It would have worked on a ''lot'' of people. It was a risk, yes, in that if Atlas was forced to go through with it he would have had no obvious leverage, but he wasn't, so he didn't.
** Elizabeth is compassionate, yes, but she isn't stupid. Quite the opposite, and she proved throughout Episode One that she's a skilled manipulator when she wants to be. If she'd dared Atlas to go through with it he'd have had to stop because he'd lose any leverage he has. If he lobotomises Liz, he loses the best lead he has at
getting out, particularly sensitive work like Jack's conditioning, his Ace in the encoding it makes sense.
** We're
Hole, if he lobotomises Sally, she has no more reason to cooperate and he loses the best lead he has at getting his Ace in the Hole. Liz, by virtue of Atlas just assuming she knows what his Ace in the Hole is, technically has just as much, if not saying more, leverage over him than he has over her by that point. It's just that the encoding them plot demanded that instead of actually using her brain, her strongest asset, Liz should have a mental breakdown so her mental version of Booker could tell her what to do.
** She wasn't exactly in a rational state of mind at that point, because she had just been tortured, and Sally was about to be lobotomized in front of her. This would have worked on very nearly ''anyone'', and Elizabeth is not exactly used to being tortured or anything of the sort. And her mental Booker is just the form the last vestiges of her omniscience takes.
** She was holding it fairly well together when she dared him to lobotomise her. But even then, it still raises the question of why Atlas would bother when she was his best lead to finding the Ace. He
didn't make sense, we're asking why know her mental state was taking a nosedive and he'd seen how clever Liz is. Why on earth would he encoded most put that at risk by threatening her when it could very easily have backfired in his face?
** First, we don't know if Atlas would have carried out the threat. What he knows is that Elizabeth was willing to walk through all manner
of them, most of which were hell to save Sally, willing to risk her own life for Sally's sake. While lobotomizing Sally might've somehow made Elizabeth even LESS likely to cooperate (...which would be personal notes hard, given that Atlas was just torturing Elizabeth for himself, information), its more likely that Atlas figured Elizabeth would give up the info to save Sally... given everything else she's done to save Sally. And, hey, if Elizabeth still isn't fazed... well, the brain's still in broken English instead there, just need to find another way to get at it.
** I guess that's what's confusing me there, because Atlas is Fontaine, who isn't really the type to play such a risk, especially with someone he's only known for a few hours, and has only one known method
of controlling. I mean in the first game, he had complete control over Jack and when he lost that he still had his native language.
**
failsafe codephrase (which makes me wonder how he had that when he didn't have Would You Kindly) to shut Jack down, and only lost that because Tenenbaum was smarter and Jack more persistent than he gave them credit for. It doesn't matter who they're for, someone can still find them really make sense for him to threaten his only method of ensuring Liz's cooperation when he's aware how smart she is and discover something he may not want to share. It is going a bit far for Big Daddy drill notes and that other mundane stuff, I'll admit, but it's easier to encode everything in a system you're familiar with than picking and choosing on a per-case basis. As for his choice of code, broken English means less coding. He can jot down simple notes relatively quickly on a paper rather than several for entire paragraphs.
** Yes, but he
could still do very easily ''lose'' that in coded Korean instead of going the extra effort of writing it down in coded English, which seems rather pointless cooperation now that he's revealed how vital she is to his plans.
** Elizabeth ''isn't'' cooperating. She was cooperating
when a lot of she said she'd get them back to Rapture. Now that's done, and Atlas wants the notes are for his eyes only.
** First of all, Suchong is a Chinese name. He spent time in Korea, but he himself was apparently Chinese. In that context, consider that written Chinese isn't alphabetic and isn't inherently phonetic. A Chinese character doesn't represent a sound so much as a meaning, and there can be an awful lot of wildly different characters associated with a single sound. As such, I can only imagine encoding messages in Chinese without the obvious use of other Chinese characters would be absolutely agonizingly difficult. Any fluent Chinese-speaking tropers, feel free to correct me here. Alternative possibility: The code is in written in Chinese, but since
information she supposedly has, information Elizabeth is presented refusing to divulge. There's no benefit to not harming Sally now. She's only useful as a polymath extraordinaire, tool to get Elizabeth to talk. If she learned how to read Chinese during her captivity. The rest is just TranslationConvention for the player's sake.
** Suchong might have personal reasons why
talks, then he doesn't use wins. If she doesn't, no skin off his native language. A lot of people in Rapture are trying to distance themselves from their old lives on the surface- maybe this is his way of rejecting his old country. Alternatively, maybe he learned English back. She wasn't talking anyway, so he's lost nothing by taking a "speak English" plasmid that didn't work so well, and now his brain can only operate in broken English.
** English, as a phonetic alphabet, is a million times easier to encode than Korean/Chinese/whatever. For English, you can make a relatively simple cipher that can be tough to break due to the fact English only has 26 different letters, whereas Chinese has characters numbering in the hundreds, making them impossible to code efficiently.
** Korean is also a phonetic alphabet.
torturing Sally.



[[folder: Burial at Sea: Tenenbaum?]]
* Seriously. What happened to her during the events of the game? You would think that with all of her involvement in the development of both Little Sisters and Jack, she would've played a more prominent role in the DLC.
** You only see the one Sister, and by the time you make it past the department store you're under Fontaine's thumb. She's elsewhere, doing her thing.
** So, what, you think she never went shopping? Out to restaurants? She never gets even a single audio log, despite being a major player in the resolution of the first game, and barely even gets mentioned over the course of the DLC. Her involvement with the Little Sister program is never even mentioned (despite the Little Sisters ''apparent'' importance to the plot of Burial at Sea).
** At this point, Tenenbaum isn't out and about, but in hiding, having quit her work and vowed to save Little Sisters. An informational video mentions that Tenenbaum has been missing and the subject of rumors, before reassuring the viewer that she is only working on her next great advance. Really, she has gone into hiding at this point. She may have already begun rescuing the sisters, one by one.
** Tenenbaum gets no audio logs in Episode 2 but a letter: you can find it near the end in what probably used to be her office.

to:

[[folder: Burial at Sea: Tenenbaum?]]
Why was Sally important?]]
* Seriously. What happened to her during the events There are equally infinite universes in which Sally literally does not exist, and also equally many in which Sally doesn't get turned into a little sister, as well as equally many where Sally does get turned into a little sister and can't be saved. Why does one version of the game? You would think one girl who may or may not exist depending on whatever door Elizabeth arbitrarily walks into matter so much?
** Because one ending of a game
that with all of her involvement in came out 7 years ago is more important than the development entirety of both ''[=BioShock=] Infinite'' and its characters, apparently.
** It's even worse than that. Sally and the other
Little Sisters and Jack, she would've played a are more prominent role important than everyone alive in Rapture (who were not all terrible people, mind you) and everyone on the DLC.
** You only see
plane that Jack hijacked. The problem is that the one Sister, fate of Rapture is a horrific tragedy, and by the time you make it past the department store you're under Fontaine's thumb. She's elsewhere, doing her thing.
** So, what, you think she never went shopping? Out to restaurants? She never gets even a single audio log, despite being a major player in the resolution of the first game, and barely even gets mentioned over the course of the DLC. Her involvement with the Little Sister program is never even mentioned (despite
saving the Little Sisters ''apparent'' importance to just a case of salvaging a little good out of the plot of Burial at Sea).
** At
mess. Ep2, for all its good, tries to turn the original ''[=BioShock=]'' into a noble adventure. One might be able to argue that this point, Tenenbaum was the only way the Little Sisters could be saved... but that's never implied in Ep1 or 2.
** When weighed on a grand scale, yes, it seems Sally's life and those of the other Little Sisters are rather insignificant compared to everyone in Rapture, but then, Elizabeth
isn't out and about, but in hiding, having quit her work and vowed acting according to save Little Sisters. An informational video mentions that Tenenbaum has been missing and metric. She's fixated on Sally, on saving this one little girl whom she wronged, to the neglect of all else. She's entirely willing to march straight to her own death if it means she can fix the problem she caused. Whether this is ultimately a selfish or selfless motive is subject to interpretation, of rumors, before reassuring course, but it is nonetheless the viewer reason ''why'' Sally is important ''to Elizabeth''.
** One theory on the web says
that she is only working on her next great advance. Really, she has gone into hiding at this point. She may have already begun rescuing is the sisters, Luteces' doing, that they've seen how one by one.
** Tenenbaum gets no audio logs in Episode 2 but a letter: you
man can find topple a dystopian empire by accident, and were stringing Elizabeth along to end Rapture. So they were using reverse psychology to make Elizabeth think that Sally was important, when it near was her pursuit of Sally that was the end in what probably used to be her office.really important thing.



[[folder: The Ace in the Hole]]
* If Jack was born in 1956, and Burial at Sea takes place in 1959/1960, how could Fontaine have possibly not known the trigger phrase for almost 4 years?
** He was busy. While Fontaine busied himself with his rebellion, he contracted Suchong to make an agent for him. Suchong did the legwork then tried to screw him at the end, so Fontaine never got the trigger until Elizabeth raided Suchong's lab for it.
** I'm more interested in how he got the Code Yellow codephrase if he didn't have Would You Kindly.
** Atlas probably got that code earlier, before WYK was programmed in and Suchong tried to stiff him.
** We don't know when he got that code. It could have been after Jack came to Rapture, or maybe it was simply easier to find. Code Yellow wouldn't have been protected as much as the Ace.
** Oh yeah, the code that stops Jack's heart, not gonna hide that. Can't see letting something like that float around ending badly or accidentally ruining any plans I might have.
** It was important, but not as important as the one to actually ''control'' him. It was hidden elsewhere.
** If the code phrase was meant to be this huge secret no-one knew, how did Andrew Ryan find it out, especially since he's the last man who should have known?
** Ryan is a smart man; watching Atlas preface every command to Jack with this phrase would set off some bells. Add on to that the fact that Jack can access the bathysphere network when he shouldn't be able to and Ryan can easily work up a theory.

to:

[[folder: The Ace in original Elizabeth's fate?]]
* Ken Levine made a point of stressing
the Hole]]
* If Jack was born in 1956, and
fact that Burial at Sea takes place in 1959/1960, how could Fontaine have possibly not known the trigger phrase for almost 4 years?
** He was busy. While Fontaine busied himself with his rebellion, he contracted Suchong to make an agent for him. Suchong did the legwork then tried to screw him at the end, so Fontaine never got the trigger until
- Episode 1's Elizabeth raided Suchong's lab for it.
** I'm more interested in how he got
was the Code Yellow codephrase if he didn't have Would You Kindly.
Elizabeth we played beside all this time through the original B:I game. Then in episode 2...she dies offscreen, in the first five minutes of the game?
** Atlas probably got [[spoiler:Elizabeth's a bit godlike in powers at the time of her death, so that code earlier, before WYK was programmed in and Suchong tried to stiff him.
** We don't know when he got that code. It could have been after Jack came to Rapture, or maybe it was simply easier to find. Code Yellow wouldn't have been protected as much as the Ace.
** Oh yeah, the code that stops Jack's heart, not gonna hide that. Can't see letting something like that float around ending badly or accidentally ruining any plans I might have.
** It was important, but not as important as the one to
doesn't actually ''control'' him. kill her. It was hidden elsewhere.
** If
just kills her form in that world. According to an audiolog you get later in the code phrase was meant game, Rosalind Lutece says that if someone like her or Elizabeth incarnates in a reality where they died, they'd become mortal once again, which is what Elizabeth did: Returns to be this huge secret no-one knew, how did Andrew Ryan find it out, especially since he's the last man who should have known?
** Ryan is a smart man; watching Atlas preface every command to Jack with this phrase
same universe she and the remaining Comstock died in, so that she would set off some bells. Add on to that the fact that Jack can access the bathysphere network when he shouldn't be able to become mortal.]] I think. Honestly, once you get into alternate realities and Ryan can easily work up godlike beings and stuff... it gets a theory.touch confusing.



[[folder: Trusting Atlas]]
* At the end of Burial at Sea part 2, Elizabeth hands over the Ace in the Hole to Atlas. She knows and he knows that the moment he gets it he's going to kill her, but she's willing to accept this if it means saving Sally. Except there's a problem with this master plan: it's ''Atlas''. Again and again over the course of the game, he has proven he isn't trustworthy and won't abide by any deals he strikes. Sally is a little sister unprotected by a Big Daddy. Atlas earlier describes her as being 'worth her weight in gold.' Even if she isn't worth quite that much, as a little sister she's still worth something to him and is certainly worth more to him in his hands than wandering the streets. After smashing Elizabeth's head open, why wouldn't he take Sally and let his men extract her Adam anyway? If nothing else, he almost seems like the kind of guy who would do it just to spite her.
** Perhaps he didn't really feel it necessary. She's one Little Sister. He also claims to be tired of her, so perhaps he just didn't feel like going through the effort amidst all the chaos.
** Then why didn't his splicer minions kill her? They must have been jonesing for some ADAM.
** It doesn't matter. Even if Atlas double-crosses her and kills Sally, Elizabeth has seen that bringing Jack to Rapture will end the violence, kill Atlas, and save all the Little Sisters.
** She only sees that ''after'' he's smashed her face in. She had no way of knowing that when she was giving it to him.
** That's why her built-in Booker told her about the leap of faith. She didn't EXACTLY know why obtaining Ace in the hole is important, but her visions had shown her it WAS somehow important.
** There is a plausible answer to this in an above topic ("So, why did Atlas let Sally go at the end?"), but I'll add a bit more to fit the context here. Notice how Elizabeth dares Atlas to kill her before translating the Ace, and he obliges? As soon as he realises it's coded, he starts to panic. In doing so, he completely forgets about Sally and focuses on getting the code out of Elizabeth before she dies. Once she translates the code, Atlas so relieved that he immediately moves up to the next phase of his plan. At this point, Sally is nowhere in sight. She's slipped off into hiding, Atlas has forgotten about her, and the splicer minions were also too focused on the drama before them to stop her. Atlas then orders them to move out, which focuses them on the next phase of the plan and not on finding the Little Sister who ran off somewhere. Elizabeth's ploy works, Sally lives.
** And here's another theory from the same answer - Atlas sees through Elizabeth's ploy, but lets Sally run off because he believes that Jack will find and kill her to increase his power. After all, why waste ADAM on his expendable minions when he has to ensure his Ace in the Hole survives Rapture?

to:

[[folder: Trusting Atlas]]
Codes and Ciphers]]
* At Why would Suchong encode his personal notes, meant solely for his own use and eyes, from broken English instead of fluent Korean?
** For
the end of Burial at Sea part 2, last one, since it was the control code, it would have had to be in English. If he wrote it in Korean and then forgot how precisely it was supposed to be translated, the code would be lost. As for the rest, it's harder to say.
** Notes can be stolen, as
Elizabeth hands over does. He had to abandon the Ace in the Hole to Atlas. She knows and tear lab, after all. If he knows that the moment he gets it he's going to kill her, but she's willing to accept this if it means saving Sally. Except there's a problem with this master plan: it's ''Atlas''. Again and again over the course of the game, he has proven he isn't trustworthy and won't abide by any deals he strikes. Sally is a little sister unprotected by a Big Daddy. Atlas earlier describes her as being 'worth her weight in gold.' Even if she isn't worth quite that much, as a little sister she's still worth something to him and is certainly worth more to him in doesn't want his hands than wandering the streets. After smashing Elizabeth's head open, why wouldn't he take Sally and let his men extract her Adam anyway? If nothing else, he almost seems work getting out, particularly sensitive work like Jack's conditioning, the kind of guy who would do encoding it just to spite her.
makes sense.
** Perhaps he We're not saying the encoding them didn't really feel it necessary. She's one Little Sister. He also claims make sense, we're asking why he encoded most of them, most of which were likely to be tired personal notes for himself, in broken English instead of her, so perhaps he just didn't feel like going through the effort amidst all the chaos.
** Then why didn't
his splicer minions kill her? They must have been jonesing for some ADAM.
native language.
** It doesn't matter. Even if Atlas double-crosses her matter who they're for, someone can still find them and kills Sally, discover something he may not want to share. It is going a bit far for Big Daddy drill notes and that other mundane stuff, I'll admit, but it's easier to encode everything in a system you're familiar with than picking and choosing on a per-case basis. As for his choice of code, broken English means less coding. He can jot down simple notes relatively quickly on a paper rather than several for entire paragraphs.
** Yes, but he could still do that in coded Korean instead of going the extra effort of writing it down in coded English, which seems rather pointless when a lot of the notes are for his eyes only.
** First of all, Suchong is a Chinese name. He spent time in Korea, but he himself was apparently Chinese. In that context, consider that written Chinese isn't alphabetic and isn't inherently phonetic. A Chinese character doesn't represent a sound so much as a meaning, and there can be an awful lot of wildly different characters associated with a single sound. As such, I can only imagine encoding messages in Chinese without the obvious use of other Chinese characters would be absolutely agonizingly difficult. Any fluent Chinese-speaking tropers, feel free to correct me here. Alternative possibility: The code is in written in Chinese, but since
Elizabeth has seen that bringing Jack is presented as a polymath extraordinaire, she learned how to read Chinese during her captivity. The rest is just TranslationConvention for the player's sake.
** Suchong might have personal reasons why he doesn't use his native language. A lot of people in
Rapture will end are trying to distance themselves from their old lives on the violence, kill Atlas, and save all the Little Sisters.
** She only sees that ''after'' he's smashed her face in. She had no
surface- maybe this is his way of knowing rejecting his old country. Alternatively, maybe he learned English by taking a "speak English" plasmid that when she was giving it to him.
** That's why her built-in Booker told her about the leap of faith. She
didn't EXACTLY know why obtaining Ace work so well, and now his brain can only operate in broken English.
** English, as a phonetic alphabet, is a million times easier to encode than Korean/Chinese/whatever. For English, you can make a relatively simple cipher that can be tough to break due to the fact English only has 26 different letters, whereas Chinese has characters numbering
in the hole is important, but her visions had shown her it WAS somehow important.
** There is a plausible answer
hundreds, making them impossible to this in an above topic ("So, why did Atlas let Sally go at the end?"), but I'll add a bit more to fit the context here. Notice how Elizabeth dares Atlas to kill her before translating the Ace, and he obliges? As soon as he realises it's coded, he starts to panic. In doing so, he completely forgets about Sally and focuses on getting the code out of Elizabeth before she dies. Once she translates the code, Atlas so relieved that he immediately moves up to the next phase of his plan. At this point, Sally efficiently.
** Korean
is nowhere in sight. She's slipped off into hiding, Atlas has forgotten about her, and the splicer minions were also too focused on the drama before them to stop her. Atlas then orders them to move out, which focuses them on the next phase of the plan and not on finding the Little Sister who ran off somewhere. Elizabeth's ploy works, Sally lives.
** And here's another theory from the same answer - Atlas sees through Elizabeth's ploy, but lets Sally run off because he believes that Jack will find and kill her to increase his power. After all, why waste ADAM on his expendable minions when he has to ensure his Ace in the Hole survives Rapture?
a phonetic alphabet.



[[folder: Songbird's fight]]
* So, in Burial at Sea, Songbird and Elizabeth apparently bonded when she repaired his breathing apparatus. The thing is, Elizabeth mentions he crashed into the tower after being in "some sort of fight". What could have been strong enough to beat Songbird like that?
** Comstock and Fink engineered the whole "crashing into the tower" thing to force the bond between Liz and Songbird. I think they just sabotaged his breathing tube and chucked him into the tower.
** Alternatively, (just guessing here) the Songbird we see in-game could have had his strength and armor upgraded over the years. An earlier Songbird would have been weaker. Weak enough that a rebel with a rocket launcher (or several) could have stunned him enough to lose flight control.

to:

[[folder: Songbird's fight]]
* So, in
Burial at Sea, Songbird Sea: Tenenbaum?]]
* Seriously. What happened to her during the events of the game? You would think that with all of her involvement in the development of both Little Sisters
and Elizabeth apparently bonded when Jack, she repaired his breathing apparatus. The thing is, Elizabeth would've played a more prominent role in the DLC.
** You only see the one Sister, and by the time you make it past the department store you're under Fontaine's thumb. She's elsewhere, doing her thing.
** So, what, you think she never went shopping? Out to restaurants? She never gets even a single audio log, despite being a major player in the resolution of the first game, and barely even gets mentioned over the course of the DLC. Her involvement with the Little Sister program is never even mentioned (despite the Little Sisters ''apparent'' importance to the plot of Burial at Sea).
** At this point, Tenenbaum isn't out and about, but in hiding, having quit her work and vowed to save Little Sisters. An informational video
mentions he crashed that Tenenbaum has been missing and the subject of rumors, before reassuring the viewer that she is only working on her next great advance. Really, she has gone into the tower after being in "some sort of fight". What could hiding at this point. She may have been strong enough to beat Songbird like that?
** Comstock and Fink engineered
already begun rescuing the whole "crashing into sisters, one by one.
** Tenenbaum gets no audio logs in Episode 2 but a letter: you can find it near
the tower" thing end in what probably used to force the bond between Liz and Songbird. I think they just sabotaged his breathing tube and chucked him into the tower.
** Alternatively, (just guessing here) the Songbird we see in-game could have had his strength and armor upgraded over the years. An earlier Songbird would have been weaker. Weak enough that a rebel with a rocket launcher (or several) could have stunned him enough to lose flight control.
be her office.



[[folder: Elizabeth's powers]]
* If the Rapture version of Elizabeth lost her powers due to returning to a place she had died, couldn't she have simply regained her powers using a another PortalCut through one of the tears between Columbia and Rapture?
** Maybe. But then she would have lost them again upon incarnating in a world where she was dead.
** Also, remember that Comstock developed cancer due to extensive usage of the tears, and even Robert Lutece was nervous about jumping into a rip in space-time that could have left him stranded in a place that they don't even have words to describe how they don't have words for the anomaly. Elizabeth was on the clock to save Sally, and risking it all with the tear is not a good idea (like trying to use a cheat code and risk crashing the game). You can also treat her powers as a sort of "cursed wealth"; it's possible that some part of her wanted them back and some part didn't.

to:

[[folder: Elizabeth's powers]]
The Ace in the Hole]]
* If Jack was born in 1956, and Burial at Sea takes place in 1959/1960, how could Fontaine have possibly not known the Rapture version of trigger phrase for almost 4 years?
** He was busy. While Fontaine busied himself with his rebellion, he contracted Suchong to make an agent for him. Suchong did the legwork then tried to screw him at the end, so Fontaine never got the trigger until
Elizabeth lost her powers due to returning to a place she had died, couldn't she raided Suchong's lab for it.
** I'm more interested in how he got the Code Yellow codephrase if he didn't
have simply regained her powers using a another PortalCut through one of the tears between Columbia and Rapture?
Would You Kindly.
** Maybe. But then she would have lost them again upon incarnating in a world where she was dead.
** Also, remember
Atlas probably got that Comstock developed cancer due to extensive usage of the tears, code earlier, before WYK was programmed in and even Robert Lutece was nervous about jumping into a rip in space-time Suchong tried to stiff him.
** We don't know when he got
that code. It could have left him stranded in a place been after Jack came to Rapture, or maybe it was simply easier to find. Code Yellow wouldn't have been protected as much as the Ace.
** Oh yeah, the code
that they don't even stops Jack's heart, not gonna hide that. Can't see letting something like that float around ending badly or accidentally ruining any plans I might have.
** It was important, but not as important as the one to actually ''control'' him. It was hidden elsewhere.
** If the code phrase was meant to be this huge secret no-one knew, how did Andrew Ryan find it out, especially since he's the last man who should
have words known?
** Ryan is a smart man; watching Atlas preface every command
to describe how they don't have words for the anomaly. Elizabeth was on the clock to save Sally, and risking it all Jack with the tear is not a good idea (like trying this phrase would set off some bells. Add on to use a cheat code and risk crashing the game). You can also treat her powers as a sort of "cursed wealth"; it's possible that some part of her wanted them back the fact that Jack can access the bathysphere network when he shouldn't be able to and some part didn't.
Ryan can easily work up a theory.



[[folder: Elizabeth and Rapture]]
* Burial at Sea Part 2 informs us that if a being like Elizabeth or the Luteces re-manifest a world in which they have already died, then they become mortal once again. This makes the scene of Songbird's death via transporting to Rapture make little to no sense, knowing what we do about the conclusion of Burial at Sea: There are multiple pieces of evidence that the Entrance Room where Elizabeth, Booker and Songbird arrive that they arrive there AFTER New Years Eve of 1958: The disarray surrounding the two suggesting sustained rebellion against Ryan, the dead Big Daddy across the way with a Little Sister sobbing over it (The pair-bond issue that had been plaguing Suchong was only fixed around the time of his death, roughly January 14th 1959, and is demonstrated pretty fully from these two), and the death cry of Songbird being allegedly heard in ''VideoGame/BioShock1'' just before Cohen's student Fitzpatrick is killed (This is circumstantial since I am told the sound is heard at other points in the game, and while I am yet to confirm those instances, I can't disprove the idea it's merely coincidence.) On New Year Eve of 1958, both Comstock and Elizabeth faced down a severely pissed off Big Daddy. Said Daddy went on to kill both of them. Elizabeth survives due to godlike power at this point, but gives all of it up to return to Rapture and save Sally. Her actions then go on to directly influence how Rapture develops. She is responsible for bringing Jack to Rapture. She is then killed a second, permanent time. This means that in any universe where the civil war in Rapture kicked off, there had to been an Elizabeth's death at the cause of it, especially if we go by Word of God telling us that ''Burial at Sea'' and ''[=BioShock=]'' take place in "Rapture Prime", making it the constant, rather than the variable. What does this all add up to? Elizabeth cannot re-manifest in Rapture at the time she seemingly does, because doing so would rob her of her powers and the climax of Infinite would no longer be able to happen. Now, I am aware that after a point the ending stops taking place in what we could conceive as "reality", but it was not at this point, as there had to be SOMETHING that killed Songbird not wrapped up in metaphor and poetry. New facts added in Burial at Sea made this fairly poignant scene make little to no sense.
** Alpha!Elizabeth taking Booker to Rapture already happened by the time she goes hunting for the Comstock trying to screw up her new cycle and Elizabeth dragging Bookerstock down to find Sally was the second time she had been there. So nothing is wrong with her going there in the main game, returning to Rapture, and then returning the third and final time to become mortal and die.

to:

[[folder: Elizabeth and Rapture]]
Trusting Atlas]]
* At the end of Burial at Sea Part 2 informs us that if a being like part 2, Elizabeth or hands over the Luteces re-manifest a world Ace in which they have already died, then they become mortal once again. This makes the scene of Songbird's death via transporting Hole to Rapture make little to no sense, knowing what we do about the conclusion of Burial at Sea: There are multiple pieces of evidence Atlas. She knows and he knows that the Entrance Room where Elizabeth, Booker and Songbird arrive that they arrive there AFTER New Years Eve of 1958: The disarray surrounding the two suggesting sustained rebellion against Ryan, the dead Big Daddy across the way moment he gets it he's going to kill her, but she's willing to accept this if it means saving Sally. Except there's a problem with a Little Sister sobbing this master plan: it's ''Atlas''. Again and again over it (The pair-bond issue that had been plaguing Suchong was only fixed around the time course of his death, roughly January 14th 1959, and is demonstrated pretty fully from these two), and the death cry of Songbird being allegedly heard in ''VideoGame/BioShock1'' just before Cohen's student Fitzpatrick is killed (This is circumstantial since I am told the sound is heard at other points in the game, he has proven he isn't trustworthy and while I am yet to confirm those instances, I can't disprove the idea it's merely coincidence.) On New Year Eve of 1958, both Comstock and Elizabeth faced down won't abide by any deals he strikes. Sally is a severely pissed off little sister unprotected by a Big Daddy. Said Daddy went on Atlas earlier describes her as being 'worth her weight in gold.' Even if she isn't worth quite that much, as a little sister she's still worth something to him and is certainly worth more to him in his hands than wandering the streets. After smashing Elizabeth's head open, why wouldn't he take Sally and let his men extract her Adam anyway? If nothing else, he almost seems like the kind of guy who would do it just to spite her.
** Perhaps he didn't really feel it necessary. She's one Little Sister. He also claims to be tired of her, so perhaps he just didn't feel like going through the effort amidst all the chaos.
** Then why didn't his splicer minions
kill both of them. her? They must have been jonesing for some ADAM.
** It doesn't matter. Even if Atlas double-crosses her and kills Sally,
Elizabeth survives due to godlike power at this point, but gives all of it up to return to Rapture and save Sally. Her actions then go on to directly influence how Rapture develops. She is responsible for has seen that bringing Jack to Rapture. She is then killed a second, permanent time. This means that in any universe where the civil war in Rapture kicked off, there will end the violence, kill Atlas, and save all the Little Sisters.
** She only sees that ''after'' he's smashed her face in. She
had no way of knowing that when she was giving it to been him.
** That's why her built-in Booker told her about the leap of faith. She didn't EXACTLY know why obtaining Ace in the hole is important, but her visions had shown her it WAS somehow important.
** There is a plausible answer to this in
an above topic ("So, why did Atlas let Sally go at the end?"), but I'll add a bit more to fit the context here. Notice how Elizabeth dares Atlas to kill her before translating the Ace, and he obliges? As soon as he realises it's coded, he starts to panic. In doing so, he completely forgets about Sally and focuses on getting the code out of Elizabeth before she dies. Once she translates the code, Atlas so relieved that he immediately moves up to the next phase of his plan. At this point, Sally is nowhere in sight. She's slipped off into hiding, Atlas has forgotten about her, and the splicer minions were also too focused on the drama before them to stop her. Atlas then orders them to move out, which focuses them on the next phase of the plan and not on finding the Little Sister who ran off somewhere. Elizabeth's death at ploy works, Sally lives.
** And here's another theory from
the cause of it, especially if we go by Word of God telling us that ''Burial at Sea'' and ''[=BioShock=]'' take place in "Rapture Prime", making it the constant, rather than the variable. What does this all add up to? Elizabeth cannot re-manifest in Rapture at the time she seemingly does, same answer - Atlas sees through Elizabeth's ploy, but lets Sally run off because doing so would rob her of her powers and the climax of Infinite would no longer be able to happen. Now, I am aware he believes that after a point the ending stops taking place in what we could conceive as "reality", but it was not at this point, as there had to be SOMETHING that killed Songbird not wrapped up in metaphor and poetry. New facts added in Burial at Sea made this fairly poignant scene make little to no sense.
** Alpha!Elizabeth taking Booker to Rapture already happened by the time she goes hunting for the Comstock trying to screw up her new cycle and Elizabeth dragging Bookerstock down to
Jack will find Sally was the second time she had been there. So nothing is wrong with and kill her going there to increase his power. After all, why waste ADAM on his expendable minions when he has to ensure his Ace in the main game, returning to Rapture, and then returning the third and final time to become mortal and die.Hole survives Rapture?



[[folder: Columbia still existing in the multiverse]]
* Columbia should have been retroactively erased when the existence of any Comstock was prevented, yet in Episode 2 we go there through a Lutece Machine. At first I thought it was a different Columbia that could have survived: the one Comstock!Booker came from, and a Columbia that went on without a Comstock would've been a cool concept. But we quickly learn that it is, indeed, the Columbia wrecked by the Vox revolution we already knew, with even a couple scenes hammering the point. So, why? A possibile explanation is that the multiverse has preserved at least that Columbia because of its direct link to the Rapture universe and their mutual influence; completely erasing Columbia and its influences would have led to a chain effect that would have required huge adjustments. Also, it's the universe where the now godlike Elizabeth acquired her full power, so it has to still exist to not make her existence void. And since that is a Columbia where Elizabeth is saved and all the major players in the city die, it can exist in a StableTimeLoop without being a threat. Still, these reasonings can be quite some stretch, and by the same logic many other Columbias may still exist, which would be another thing that, to create Episode 1 and 2, has robbed Infinite's ending of its weight.
** Think about it; is there a rule that says no two alternate universes can be exactly the same? Hence Rosiland's 'Tide' analogy: even if you undo a universe in an infinite number of universes, there's bound to be another universe that is exactly alike. Or, there might be a universe where almost everything in Bioshock Infinite happened except the time paradox eraser.
** The whole point of the universe wipe was to wipe out ''all'' universes with Comstock - and therefore Columbia - in them. Each choice creates an infinite number of universes, so Elizabeth goes back to when the choice was made and snuffs Comstock in his crib, metaphorically speaking. That at least one Columbia survived directly contradicts the ending and introduces a massive plot hole that is never addressed. ''Theoretically'' it could be a Columbia that was made anyway without Comstock, but there's nothing to indicate that's the case, and it's yet another way Burial at Sea messes with what's already been established.
** This is how I interpreted the whole screwed-up scenario: Killing Comstock in the river merely prevented any ''new'' Comstocks from emerging, but the old ones would remain because they have to in order for any Elizabeths to exist at all and kill Comstock in the first place. Her actions allowed the ''possibility'' for new futures based on a reality where Booker didn't have Anna stolen. The idea of 'infinite' versions of Columbia still remain, but now there are new 'infinite possible' versions of a world where Booker keeps Anna. (If we assume Comstock's timeline-screwing has taken away all possible Annas from all possible Bookers, which we have to assume because otherwise TheStinger of the main game makes no sense if there were already worlds where Booker kept Anna. Elizabeth drowning him allowed the new worlds where Booker and Anna are normal to happen.)
** In short: Once there is a possible world for something to happen you can't make it not-possible anymore because it's is already possible and it is already there. But if there is an ever-expanding multiverse, a new choice creates new branches and new possible worlds to explore, but it can't really undo whats already happened because then the choice would not need to have been made. There is already a world where Elizabeth turned evil and rained holy fire down on the Sodom Below, and you can't undo the world that happened in, but you can make it possible to avoid that future ''in other timelines'' by saving Elizabeth before she breaks.

to:

[[folder: Columbia still existing Songbird's fight]]
* So,
in the multiverse]]
* Columbia should have been retroactively erased
Burial at Sea, Songbird and Elizabeth apparently bonded when she repaired his breathing apparatus. The thing is, Elizabeth mentions he crashed into the existence tower after being in "some sort of any Comstock was prevented, yet in Episode 2 we go there through a Lutece Machine. At first I thought it was a different Columbia that fight". What could have survived: the one Comstock!Booker came from, and a Columbia that went on without a been strong enough to beat Songbird like that?
**
Comstock would've been a cool concept. But we quickly learn that it is, indeed, and Fink engineered the Columbia wrecked by whole "crashing into the Vox revolution we already knew, with even a couple scenes hammering tower" thing to force the point. So, why? A possibile explanation is that bond between Liz and Songbird. I think they just sabotaged his breathing tube and chucked him into the multiverse has preserved at least that Columbia because of its direct link to tower.
** Alternatively, (just guessing here)
the Rapture universe Songbird we see in-game could have had his strength and their mutual influence; completely erasing Columbia and its influences armor upgraded over the years. An earlier Songbird would have led to a chain effect been weaker. Weak enough that would have required huge adjustments. Also, it's the universe where the now godlike Elizabeth acquired her full power, so it has to still exist to not make her existence void. And since that is a Columbia where Elizabeth is saved and all the major players in the city die, it can exist in a StableTimeLoop without being a threat. Still, these reasonings can be quite some stretch, and by the same logic many other Columbias may still exist, which would be another thing that, to create Episode 1 and 2, has robbed Infinite's ending of its weight.
** Think about it; is there a rule that says no two alternate universes can be exactly the same? Hence Rosiland's 'Tide' analogy: even if you undo a universe in an infinite number of universes, there's bound to be another universe that is exactly alike. Or, there might be a universe where almost everything in Bioshock Infinite happened except the time paradox eraser.
** The whole point of the universe wipe was to wipe out ''all'' universes
rebel with Comstock - and therefore Columbia - in them. Each choice creates an infinite number of universes, so Elizabeth goes back to when the choice was made and snuffs Comstock in his crib, metaphorically speaking. That at least one Columbia survived directly contradicts the ending and introduces a massive plot hole that is never addressed. ''Theoretically'' it rocket launcher (or several) could be a Columbia that was made anyway without Comstock, but there's nothing to indicate that's the case, and it's yet another way Burial at Sea messes with what's already been established.
** This is how I interpreted the whole screwed-up scenario: Killing Comstock in the river merely prevented any ''new'' Comstocks from emerging, but the old ones would remain because they
have to in order for any Elizabeths to exist at all and kill Comstock in the first place. Her actions allowed the ''possibility'' for new futures based on a reality where Booker didn't have Anna stolen. The idea of 'infinite' versions of Columbia still remain, but now there are new 'infinite possible' versions of a world where Booker keeps Anna. (If we assume Comstock's timeline-screwing has taken away all possible Annas from all possible Bookers, which we have to assume because otherwise TheStinger of the main game makes no sense if there were already worlds where Booker kept Anna. Elizabeth drowning stunned him allowed the new worlds where Booker and Anna are normal enough to happen.)
** In short: Once there is a possible world for something to happen you can't make it not-possible anymore because it's is already possible and it is already there. But if there is an ever-expanding multiverse, a new choice creates new branches and new possible worlds to explore, but it can't really undo whats already happened because then the choice would not need to have been made. There is already a world where Elizabeth turned evil and rained holy fire down on the Sodom Below, and you can't undo the world that happened in, but you can make it possible to avoid that future ''in other timelines'' by saving Elizabeth before she breaks.
lose flight control.



[[folder: Infinite Raptures]]
* So at the end of Burial at Sea, Elizabeth hasn't just saved Sally, but all the Little Sisters and ensured Fontaine would be brought down. But, as Infinite showed, that's just one Fontaine and one Rapture, and there are infinitely many universes where Jack picked the bad ending. Surely it would have been better for God!Elizabeth to act in those universes first and save the one she personally screwed up and died in for last? It's not like time matters when you're a dimension-hopping god. The only possible solutions are to say that Rapture only existed, for whatever reason, in the universe where Bookerstock took up residence there, or that at least it wouldn't have gone to pot without Bookerstock, the Luteces, and Elizabeth's messing around in it, which seems doubtful. The original makes it clear that Rapture was doomed from the start.\\
TL;DR: There are presumably infinite Raptures. Why does Elizabeth only save the one where she doesn't have god powers, and not the ones that she can fix with a snap of her fingers?
** Think of it as a reality check - Elizabeth coldly abandoned Sally when she thought she was invincible, and could just go to a universe where Sally escaped Rapture. The nightmares made her realize that her powers were slowly turning her into Comstock - willing to kill your family and friends because it's 'easy to bring them back'. So this is basically her ending her life as a human and not a BigBad.
** I could be horribly mistaken, but doesn't Elizabeth's collaboration with Atlas/Fontaine result in the rebellion and the collapse of Rapture? If so Elizabeth is indirectly responsible for the deaths of ''thousands'' of people, all for the sake of Sally and the few Little Sisters Jack will be able to rescue. So, are these deaths supposed to be looked on as acceptable losses? If so, this makes Elizabeth sound even more like Comstock, who was perfectly willing to throw away the lives of thousands all for the sake of his delusional beliefs. So, not much of a reality check, more of a reality ''loss.''
** Rapture was going to fall one way or another. Between the addictive LegoGenetics, unrestrained Objectivist capitalism, mass poverty, and almost complete lack of laws, they were living on borrowed time as it was. Ryan getting rid of Fontaine only staved off the inevitable mass bloodbath for a bit, and Elizabeth bringing him back really didn't do much but accelerate the oncoming civil war.
** Honestly I read Elizabeth collapsing herself into one person to do this thing as a combination of reasons. 1) She felt personally responsible for this iteration of Sally since her actions prevented Bookerstock from (presumably) saving her or attempting to save her. 2) She could kick off the events of BioShock 1. and 3) she could ultimately kill herself. By this point it's pretty obvious Liz has become something of a DeathSeeker. Remember when she was going after Bookerstock one of her points was that she felt everything from every iteration of herself. Losing her finger, dying, being tortured by Comstock, etc. and it was also pointed out that this took a huge toll on her mind (which was still human, despite her power). Put together I don't think it's much of a stretch to imagine the fact that she would die at the end was a part of her plan all along.

to:

[[folder: Infinite Raptures]]
* So at the end of Burial at Sea, Elizabeth hasn't just saved Sally, but all the Little Sisters and ensured Fontaine would be brought down. But, as Infinite showed, that's just one Fontaine and one Rapture, and there are infinitely many universes where Jack picked the bad ending. Surely it would have been better for God!Elizabeth to act in those universes first and save the one she personally screwed up and died in for last? It's not like time matters when you're a dimension-hopping god. The only possible solutions are to say that Rapture only existed, for whatever reason, in the universe where Bookerstock took up residence there, or that at least it wouldn't have gone to pot without Bookerstock, the Luteces, and
Elizabeth's messing around in it, which seems doubtful. The original makes it clear that powers]]
* If the
Rapture was doomed from the start.\\
TL;DR: There are presumably infinite Raptures. Why does
version of Elizabeth only save the one where she doesn't have god powers, and not the ones that she can fix with a snap of her fingers?
** Think of it as a reality check - Elizabeth coldly abandoned Sally when she thought she was invincible, and could just go to a universe where Sally escaped Rapture. The nightmares made her realize that
lost her powers were slowly turning due to returning to a place she had died, couldn't she have simply regained her into powers using a another PortalCut through one of the tears between Columbia and Rapture?
** Maybe. But then she would have lost them again upon incarnating in a world where she was dead.
** Also, remember that
Comstock - willing developed cancer due to kill your family extensive usage of the tears, and friends because it's 'easy to bring them back'. So this is basically her ending her life as even Robert Lutece was nervous about jumping into a human and not a BigBad.
** I
rip in space-time that could be horribly mistaken, but doesn't Elizabeth's collaboration with Atlas/Fontaine result have left him stranded in the rebellion and the collapse of Rapture? If so Elizabeth is indirectly responsible for the deaths of ''thousands'' of people, all for the sake of Sally and the few Little Sisters Jack will be able to rescue. So, are these deaths supposed to be looked on as acceptable losses? If so, this makes Elizabeth sound even more like Comstock, who was perfectly willing to throw away the lives of thousands all for the sake of his delusional beliefs. So, not much of a reality check, more of a reality ''loss.''
** Rapture was going to fall one way or another. Between the addictive LegoGenetics, unrestrained Objectivist capitalism, mass poverty, and almost complete lack of laws,
place that they were living on borrowed time as it was. Ryan getting rid of Fontaine only staved off the inevitable mass bloodbath for a bit, and Elizabeth bringing him back really didn't do much but accelerate the oncoming civil war.
** Honestly I read Elizabeth collapsing herself into one person to do this thing as a combination of reasons. 1) She felt personally responsible for this iteration of Sally since her actions prevented Bookerstock from (presumably) saving her or attempting to save her. 2) She could kick off the events of BioShock 1. and 3) she could ultimately kill herself. By this point it's pretty obvious Liz has become something of a DeathSeeker. Remember when she was going after Bookerstock one of her points was that she felt everything from every iteration of herself. Losing her finger, dying, being tortured by Comstock, etc. and it was also pointed out that this took a huge toll on her mind (which was still human, despite her power). Put together I
don't think even have words to describe how they don't have words for the anomaly. Elizabeth was on the clock to save Sally, and risking it all with the tear is not a good idea (like trying to use a cheat code and risk crashing the game). You can also treat her powers as a sort of "cursed wealth"; it's much of a stretch to imagine the fact possible that she would die at the end was a some part of her plan all along. wanted them back and some part didn't.



[[folder:Big Daddy, the lion with the thorn in its paw]]
* The link between the Big Daddies and the Little Sisters being a case of AndroclesLion makes no damn sense. Yes, I know it's supposed to be symbolic or whatever, but it raises so many questions and contradicts everything we know about their relationship. Do they deliberately damage each Big Daddy they construct and get a Little Sister to fix it? What happens to the ones that refuse or are too scared? Do the Big Daddies simply not recognise which Little Sister helped them, so they imprint on all of them? Does that mean that Songbird could imprint on another girl as well? Do the ''Little Sisters'' not recognise which Big Daddy they fixed, and think all of them are the same? What was with the pheromones Tenenbaum sent Jack to collect; is it a placebo, or an added measure, or did they find some way to chemically replicate the imprinting effect (which would make the "science can't explain everything" thing a BrokenAesop)? If it isn't the pheromones, then why do Little Sisters react with fear to ''everyone'' who goes near them that isn't a Big Daddy, regardless of whether that person is hurting them? And if Songbird genuinely cares for and wanted to protect Elizabeth (as opposed to the abusive relationship the original game and WordOfGod established), then why was his first action in the game to tear apart the tower, almost killing her? Whoever came up with this part clearly didn't think it through.
** Oh, and it runs completely counter to not only the whistles and the tune to control Songbird that's treated as a big discovery by Elizabeth in the original, but also how Sally calls for "Mister Bubbles" in Episode 1 and he defends her. Plot holes galore!

to:

[[folder:Big Daddy, the lion with the thorn in its paw]]
* The link between the Big Daddies
[[folder: Elizabeth and the Little Sisters Rapture]]
* Burial at Sea Part 2 informs us that if a
being like Elizabeth or the Luteces re-manifest a case of AndroclesLion world in which they have already died, then they become mortal once again. This makes the scene of Songbird's death via transporting to Rapture make little to no damn sense. Yes, I know it's supposed to be symbolic or whatever, but it raises so many questions and contradicts everything sense, knowing what we know do about their relationship. Do the conclusion of Burial at Sea: There are multiple pieces of evidence that the Entrance Room where Elizabeth, Booker and Songbird arrive that they deliberately damage each arrive there AFTER New Years Eve of 1958: The disarray surrounding the two suggesting sustained rebellion against Ryan, the dead Big Daddy they construct and get across the way with a Little Sister to fix it? What happens to the ones sobbing over it (The pair-bond issue that refuse or are too scared? Do had been plaguing Suchong was only fixed around the Big Daddies simply not recognise which Little Sister helped them, so they imprint on all time of them? Does that mean that his death, roughly January 14th 1959, and is demonstrated pretty fully from these two), and the death cry of Songbird could imprint on another girl as well? Do being allegedly heard in ''VideoGame/BioShock1'' just before Cohen's student Fitzpatrick is killed (This is circumstantial since I am told the ''Little Sisters'' not recognise which Big Daddy they fixed, sound is heard at other points in the game, and think all of them are the same? What was with the pheromones Tenenbaum sent Jack while I am yet to collect; is it a placebo, or an added measure, or did they find some way to chemically replicate the imprinting effect (which would make the "science confirm those instances, I can't explain everything" thing a BrokenAesop)? If it isn't disprove the pheromones, then why do Little Sisters react with fear to ''everyone'' who goes near them that isn't a Big Daddy, regardless idea it's merely coincidence.) On New Year Eve of whether that person is hurting them? And if Songbird genuinely cares for 1958, both Comstock and wanted to protect Elizabeth (as opposed faced down a severely pissed off Big Daddy. Said Daddy went on to the abusive relationship the original game and WordOfGod established), then why was his first action in the game to tear apart the tower, almost killing her? Whoever came up with this part clearly didn't think it through.
** Oh, and it runs completely counter to not only the whistles and the tune to control Songbird that's treated as a big discovery by
kill both of them. Elizabeth survives due to godlike power at this point, but gives all of it up to return to Rapture and save Sally. Her actions then go on to directly influence how Rapture develops. She is responsible for bringing Jack to Rapture. She is then killed a second, permanent time. This means that in any universe where the civil war in Rapture kicked off, there had to been an Elizabeth's death at the cause of it, especially if we go by Word of God telling us that ''Burial at Sea'' and ''[=BioShock=]'' take place in "Rapture Prime", making it the constant, rather than the variable. What does this all add up to? Elizabeth cannot re-manifest in Rapture at the time she seemingly does, because doing so would rob her of her powers and the climax of Infinite would no longer be able to happen. Now, I am aware that after a point the ending stops taking place in what we could conceive as "reality", but it was not at this point, as there had to be SOMETHING that killed Songbird not wrapped up in metaphor and poetry. New facts added in Burial at Sea made this fairly poignant scene make little to no sense.
** Alpha!Elizabeth taking Booker to Rapture already happened by the time she goes hunting for the Comstock trying to screw up her new cycle and Elizabeth dragging Bookerstock down to find Sally was the second time she had been there. So nothing is wrong with her going there
in the original, but also how Sally calls for "Mister Bubbles" in Episode 1 main game, returning to Rapture, and he defends her. Plot holes galore!then returning the third and final time to become mortal and die.



[[folder:Vigors powered by ADAM]]
* WordOfGod for the original game is that Vigors are created via Elizabeth's tear-powers, drained by the Siphon (presumably drinking a Vigor slightly merges the user with someone in a different universe that already has that ability, but I don't think that's ever explicitly established). Meanwhile ''Burial at Sea'' states that Vigors are an offshoot of plasmids and powered by the same ADAM-creating sea slugs discovered in Rapture, with Fink dredging the sea floor around the area Rapture will be built. Yet Vigors are being produced literally on a factory assembly line, despite the Little Sisters being created in the first place because the sea slugs produced so little ADAM by themselves, and there's no sign of a similar system in Columbia. And there's no mention whatsoever of Vigor addiction or the physical and mental degradation continual use causes; admittedly Vigors aren't in public use and we never see under the Zealot's or Fireman's uniform, but they're no more insane than the rest of Columbia.
** Presumably we'd have seen more effects if Booker arrived in Columbia after Vigors had been widely distributed for some time. It's also possible that Fink was able to improve the Vigor production to nullify or at least minimize unwanted side effects after seeing how Rapture did it.
** Problem #1: How can Fink - a 1912 Robber Baron so prone to intellectual theft that he might as well be suffering from CreativeSterility - manage to solve a problem that the brightest minds of Rapture couldn't tackle? Columbia's scientific focus was primarily concerned with engineering and physics; Rapture's scientific crowning glory was in the field of genetics... or at least this was the case before the retcons were established. Problem #2: in the same voxophone where Fink mentions that he's been fishing for sea slugs, he also bitches about the astronomical cost of all these underwater expeditions. To put this in perspective, Fink has enough dosh to casually decorate his building with a giant golden statue of himself, and he complains that the sea slugs are unbelievably expensive; so you'd think that the Vigors would be a special product given only to the ultra-rich or the government, something made by commission, maybe. But no, there's a huge production line of them! Problem #3: From a visual standpoint, Vigors and Plasmids are very very different. In the Raptureverse, when a plasmid is selected, it's effectively on all the time, as you can see by Jack/Subject Delta/Subject Sigma's hand: the heat of Incinerate leaves permanent burns until you change plasmids, the honeycomb blisters of Insect Swarm don't inexplicably vanish, your hand remains frozen by Winter Blast, and the discolourations and deformities caused by Enrage or Hypnotize Big Daddy remain present as long as those powers are selected. The Vigors, on the other [[JustForPun hand]], flicker in and out of existence while they're selected: the burns of Devil's Kiss, the cracks of Bucking Bronco, the suckers of Undertow - all of them appear and disappear, many of them with a visual effect similar to that of the tears. If this was derived from Elizabeth's powers, this would make sense, but given that this has been retconned in favour of plasmids, the logic just flies out the window.

to:

[[folder:Vigors powered by ADAM]]
* WordOfGod for
[[folder: Columbia still existing in the original game is that Vigors are created via Elizabeth's tear-powers, drained by multiverse]]
* Columbia should have been retroactively erased when
the Siphon (presumably drinking a Vigor slightly merges the user with someone existence of any Comstock was prevented, yet in Episode 2 we go there through a Lutece Machine. At first I thought it was a different Columbia that could have survived: the one Comstock!Booker came from, and a Columbia that went on without a Comstock would've been a cool concept. But we quickly learn that it is, indeed, the Columbia wrecked by the Vox revolution we already knew, with even a couple scenes hammering the point. So, why? A possibile explanation is that the multiverse has preserved at least that Columbia because of its direct link to the Rapture universe and their mutual influence; completely erasing Columbia and its influences would have led to a chain effect that would have required huge adjustments. Also, it's the universe where the now godlike Elizabeth acquired her full power, so it has to still exist to not make her existence void. And since that is a Columbia where Elizabeth is saved and all the major players in the city die, it can exist in a StableTimeLoop without being a threat. Still, these reasonings can be quite some stretch, and by the same logic many other Columbias may still exist, which would be another thing that, to create Episode 1 and 2, has robbed Infinite's ending of its weight.
** Think about it; is there a rule that says no two alternate universes can be exactly the same? Hence Rosiland's 'Tide' analogy: even if you undo a universe in an infinite number of universes, there's bound to be another
universe that already has is exactly alike. Or, there might be a universe where almost everything in Bioshock Infinite happened except the time paradox eraser.
** The whole point of the universe wipe was to wipe out ''all'' universes with Comstock - and therefore Columbia - in them. Each choice creates an infinite number of universes, so Elizabeth goes back to when the choice was made and snuffs Comstock in his crib, metaphorically speaking. That at least one Columbia survived directly contradicts the ending and introduces a massive plot hole
that ability, is never addressed. ''Theoretically'' it could be a Columbia that was made anyway without Comstock, but I don't think there's nothing to indicate that's ever explicitly established). Meanwhile ''Burial at Sea'' states that Vigors are an offshoot of plasmids the case, and powered by the same ADAM-creating sea slugs discovered in Rapture, it's yet another way Burial at Sea messes with Fink dredging what's already been established.
** This is how I interpreted
the sea floor around whole screwed-up scenario: Killing Comstock in the area Rapture will be built. Yet Vigors are being produced literally on a factory assembly line, despite river merely prevented any ''new'' Comstocks from emerging, but the Little Sisters being created old ones would remain because they have to in order for any Elizabeths to exist at all and kill Comstock in the first place because place. Her actions allowed the sea slugs produced so little ADAM by themselves, and there's no sign of ''possibility'' for new futures based on a similar system in Columbia. And there's no mention whatsoever of Vigor addiction or the physical and mental degradation continual use causes; admittedly Vigors aren't in public use and we never see under the Zealot's or Fireman's uniform, but they're no more insane than the rest of Columbia.
** Presumably we'd have seen more effects if
reality where Booker arrived in didn't have Anna stolen. The idea of 'infinite' versions of Columbia after Vigors had been widely distributed for some time. It's also still remain, but now there are new 'infinite possible' versions of a world where Booker keeps Anna. (If we assume Comstock's timeline-screwing has taken away all possible that Fink was able to improve the Vigor production to nullify or at least minimize unwanted side effects after seeing how Rapture did it.
** Problem #1: How can Fink - a 1912 Robber Baron so prone to intellectual theft that he might as well be suffering
Annas from CreativeSterility - manage all possible Bookers, which we have to solve a problem that assume because otherwise TheStinger of the brightest minds of Rapture couldn't tackle? Columbia's scientific focus was primarily concerned with engineering and physics; Rapture's scientific crowning glory was in the field of genetics... or at least this was the case before the retcons main game makes no sense if there were established. Problem #2: in the same voxophone already worlds where Fink mentions that he's been fishing Booker kept Anna. Elizabeth drowning him allowed the new worlds where Booker and Anna are normal to happen.)
** In short: Once there is a possible world
for sea slugs, he also bitches about the astronomical cost of all these underwater expeditions. To put this in perspective, Fink has enough dosh to casually decorate his building with a giant golden statue of himself, and he complains that the sea slugs are unbelievably expensive; so you'd think that the Vigors would be a special product given only to the ultra-rich or the government, something made by commission, maybe. But no, there's a huge production line of them! Problem #3: From a visual standpoint, Vigors and Plasmids are very very different. In the Raptureverse, when a plasmid is selected, to happen you can't make it not-possible anymore because it's effectively on all is already possible and it is already there. But if there is an ever-expanding multiverse, a new choice creates new branches and new possible worlds to explore, but it can't really undo whats already happened because then the time, as choice would not need to have been made. There is already a world where Elizabeth turned evil and rained holy fire down on the Sodom Below, and you can't undo the world that happened in, but you can see by Jack/Subject Delta/Subject Sigma's hand: the heat of Incinerate leaves permanent burns until you change plasmids, the honeycomb blisters of Insect Swarm don't inexplicably vanish, your hand remains frozen by Winter Blast, and the discolourations and deformities caused by Enrage or Hypnotize Big Daddy remain present as long as those powers are selected. The Vigors, on the make it possible to avoid that future ''in other [[JustForPun hand]], flicker in and out of existence while they're selected: the burns of Devil's Kiss, the cracks of Bucking Bronco, the suckers of Undertow - all of them appear and disappear, many of them with a visual effect similar to that of the tears. If this was derived from Elizabeth's powers, this would make sense, but given that this has been retconned in favour of plasmids, the logic just flies out the window.timelines'' by saving Elizabeth before she breaks.



[[folder:The Luteces in [=BaS=] Episode 2]]
* The Luteces' engineer it so that Elizabeth kills Fitzroy as part of a plan to make her an adult. Leaving aside how that makes no sense, it runs ''completely counter'' to their whole plan in the first place, which was to ''avoid'' the futures where Elizabeth becomes a willing mass murderer. How, exactly, does making her a killer serve that plan? If they were in contact with Fitzroy the entire time (which comes off like a clumsy retcon even by the standards of the rest of the DLC) wouldn't it make more sense to, I don't know, order the Vox to protect Booker and Elizabeth so they could finish their quest? Or something else that doesn't have yet another group gunning to kill their important patsies?
** I thought the whole "make her a killer" thing was to ensure Elizabeth would have the emotional strength to eventually kill off all the Comstocks. If Elizabeth was unwilling to kill anyone she likely wouldn't have been able to go through with drowning Booker at the end. It would be a lot easier to make her first kill in the heat of the moment instead of premeditating it, and once she had blood on her hands....Well ItGetsEasier. After she overcomes the shock of killing Daisy, she can be ready mentally and emotionally to erase Comstock.

to:

[[folder:The Luteces in [=BaS=] Episode 2]]
[[folder: Infinite Raptures]]
* The Luteces' engineer it so that So at the end of Burial at Sea, Elizabeth kills Fitzroy as part of a plan to make her an adult. Leaving aside how that makes no sense, it runs ''completely counter'' to their whole plan in hasn't just saved Sally, but all the first place, which was to ''avoid'' the futures Little Sisters and ensured Fontaine would be brought down. But, as Infinite showed, that's just one Fontaine and one Rapture, and there are infinitely many universes where Elizabeth becomes a willing mass murderer. How, exactly, does making her a killer serve that plan? If they were in contact with Fitzroy Jack picked the entire time (which comes off like a clumsy retcon even by the standards of the rest of the DLC) wouldn't bad ending. Surely it make more sense to, I don't know, order the Vox to protect Booker and Elizabeth so they could finish their quest? Or something else that doesn't have yet another group gunning to kill their important patsies?
** I thought the whole "make her a killer" thing was to ensure Elizabeth
would have been better for God!Elizabeth to act in those universes first and save the emotional strength one she personally screwed up and died in for last? It's not like time matters when you're a dimension-hopping god. The only possible solutions are to eventually kill off all say that Rapture only existed, for whatever reason, in the Comstocks. If Elizabeth was unwilling to kill anyone she likely universe where Bookerstock took up residence there, or that at least it wouldn't have been gone to pot without Bookerstock, the Luteces, and Elizabeth's messing around in it, which seems doubtful. The original makes it clear that Rapture was doomed from the start.\\
TL;DR: There are presumably infinite Raptures. Why does Elizabeth only save the one where she doesn't have god powers, and not the ones that she can fix with a snap of her fingers?
** Think of it as a reality check - Elizabeth coldly abandoned Sally when she thought she was invincible, and could just go to a universe where Sally escaped Rapture. The nightmares made her realize that her powers were slowly turning her into Comstock - willing to kill your family and friends because it's 'easy to bring them back'. So this is basically her ending her life as a human and not a BigBad.
** I could be horribly mistaken, but doesn't Elizabeth's collaboration with Atlas/Fontaine result in the rebellion and the collapse of Rapture? If so Elizabeth is indirectly responsible for the deaths of ''thousands'' of people, all for the sake of Sally and the few Little Sisters Jack will be
able to go through with drowning Booker rescue. So, are these deaths supposed to be looked on as acceptable losses? If so, this makes Elizabeth sound even more like Comstock, who was perfectly willing to throw away the lives of thousands all for the sake of his delusional beliefs. So, not much of a reality check, more of a reality ''loss.''
** Rapture was going to fall one way or another. Between the addictive LegoGenetics, unrestrained Objectivist capitalism, mass poverty, and almost complete lack of laws, they were living on borrowed time as it was. Ryan getting rid of Fontaine only staved off the inevitable mass bloodbath for a bit, and Elizabeth bringing him back really didn't do much but accelerate the oncoming civil war.
** Honestly I read Elizabeth collapsing herself into one person to do this thing as a combination of reasons. 1) She felt personally responsible for this iteration of Sally since her actions prevented Bookerstock from (presumably) saving her or attempting to save her. 2) She could kick off the events of BioShock 1. and 3) she could ultimately kill herself. By this point it's pretty obvious Liz has become something of a DeathSeeker. Remember when she was going after Bookerstock one of her points was that she felt everything from every iteration of herself. Losing her finger, dying, being tortured by Comstock, etc. and it was also pointed out that this took a huge toll on her mind (which was still human, despite her power). Put together I don't think it's much of a stretch to imagine the fact that she would die
at the end. It would be end was a lot easier to make part of her first kill in the heat of the moment instead of premeditating it, and once she had blood on her hands....Well ItGetsEasier. After she overcomes the shock of killing Daisy, she can be ready mentally and emotionally to erase Comstock.plan all along.



[[folder:Elizabeth Vs Big Daddy]]
* ''Infinite'' is filled with instances where Elizabeth, barely understanding what her powers can do, saving herself or Booker from imminent peril, and once she gains full control of her abilities she deals with Songbird with a metaphorical flick of her wrist. Meanwhile the flashback at the start of Episode 2 shows Elizabeth trying to plead with a raging metal juggernaut and doing nothing while it slams her into a wall, not teleporting it or herself away or ''anything'', even though at this point she's omniscient and would have seen this happening before she arrived. What the hell happened?
** Pretty sure something kinda similar was asked earlier, and the answer is likely a mix of "She panicked" "She had an insane convoluted plan that required her to become mortal for some reason", and "She didn't initially care if she died in that universe."

to:

[[folder:Elizabeth Vs Big Daddy]]
* ''Infinite'' is filled
[[folder:Big Daddy, the lion with instances where Elizabeth, barely understanding what her powers can do, saving herself or Booker from imminent peril, the thorn in its paw]]
* The link between the Big Daddies
and once she gains full control the Little Sisters being a case of her abilities she deals with AndroclesLion makes no damn sense. Yes, I know it's supposed to be symbolic or whatever, but it raises so many questions and contradicts everything we know about their relationship. Do they deliberately damage each Big Daddy they construct and get a Little Sister to fix it? What happens to the ones that refuse or are too scared? Do the Big Daddies simply not recognise which Little Sister helped them, so they imprint on all of them? Does that mean that Songbird could imprint on another girl as well? Do the ''Little Sisters'' not recognise which Big Daddy they fixed, and think all of them are the same? What was with a metaphorical flick of her wrist. Meanwhile the flashback at pheromones Tenenbaum sent Jack to collect; is it a placebo, or an added measure, or did they find some way to chemically replicate the start imprinting effect (which would make the "science can't explain everything" thing a BrokenAesop)? If it isn't the pheromones, then why do Little Sisters react with fear to ''everyone'' who goes near them that isn't a Big Daddy, regardless of Episode 2 shows whether that person is hurting them? And if Songbird genuinely cares for and wanted to protect Elizabeth trying (as opposed to plead the abusive relationship the original game and WordOfGod established), then why was his first action in the game to tear apart the tower, almost killing her? Whoever came up with a raging metal juggernaut and doing nothing while it slams her into a wall, not teleporting it or herself away or ''anything'', even though at this point she's omniscient and would have seen this happening before she arrived. What the hell happened?
** Pretty sure something kinda similar was asked earlier, and the answer is likely a mix of "She panicked" "She had an insane convoluted plan that required her to become mortal for some reason", and "She
part clearly didn't initially care if she died think it through.
** Oh, and it runs completely counter to not only the whistles and the tune to control Songbird that's treated as a big discovery by Elizabeth
in that universe."the original, but also how Sally calls for "Mister Bubbles" in Episode 1 and he defends her. Plot holes galore!



[[folder:Comstock's Voice]]
* Comstock and Booker are the same person, and they have different voices because Comstock is the older version of Booker. But why is Comstock's voice higher-pitched than Booker's when people's voices get lower as they age?
** Comstock isn't older; they're the same age. Comstock just appears older because of the long-term effects of playing with the tears; namely, artificial aging and mass cancer. I'd imagine its just a quirk of the tears.

to:

[[folder:Comstock's Voice]]
[[folder:Vigors powered by ADAM]]
* Comstock and Booker WordOfGod for the original game is that Vigors are created via Elizabeth's tear-powers, drained by the same person, and they have Siphon (presumably drinking a Vigor slightly merges the user with someone in a different voices universe that already has that ability, but I don't think that's ever explicitly established). Meanwhile ''Burial at Sea'' states that Vigors are an offshoot of plasmids and powered by the same ADAM-creating sea slugs discovered in Rapture, with Fink dredging the sea floor around the area Rapture will be built. Yet Vigors are being produced literally on a factory assembly line, despite the Little Sisters being created in the first place because Comstock is the older version sea slugs produced so little ADAM by themselves, and there's no sign of Booker. But why is Comstock's voice higher-pitched than Booker's when people's voices get lower as they age?
** Comstock isn't older;
a similar system in Columbia. And there's no mention whatsoever of Vigor addiction or the physical and mental degradation continual use causes; admittedly Vigors aren't in public use and we never see under the Zealot's or Fireman's uniform, but they're no more insane than the rest of Columbia.
** Presumably we'd have seen more effects if Booker arrived in Columbia after Vigors had been widely distributed for some time. It's also possible that Fink was able to improve the Vigor production to nullify or at least minimize unwanted side effects after seeing how Rapture did it.
** Problem #1: How can Fink - a 1912 Robber Baron so prone to intellectual theft that he might as well be suffering from CreativeSterility - manage to solve a problem that the brightest minds of Rapture couldn't tackle? Columbia's scientific focus was primarily concerned with engineering and physics; Rapture's scientific crowning glory was in the field of genetics... or at least this was the case before the retcons were established. Problem #2: in
the same age. Comstock just appears older because voxophone where Fink mentions that he's been fishing for sea slugs, he also bitches about the astronomical cost of all these underwater expeditions. To put this in perspective, Fink has enough dosh to casually decorate his building with a giant golden statue of himself, and he complains that the sea slugs are unbelievably expensive; so you'd think that the Vigors would be a special product given only to the ultra-rich or the government, something made by commission, maybe. But no, there's a huge production line of them! Problem #3: From a visual standpoint, Vigors and Plasmids are very very different. In the Raptureverse, when a plasmid is selected, it's effectively on all the time, as you can see by Jack/Subject Delta/Subject Sigma's hand: the heat of Incinerate leaves permanent burns until you change plasmids, the honeycomb blisters of Insect Swarm don't inexplicably vanish, your hand remains frozen by Winter Blast, and the discolourations and deformities caused by Enrage or Hypnotize Big Daddy remain present as long as those powers are selected. The Vigors, on the other [[JustForPun hand]], flicker in and out of existence while they're selected: the burns of Devil's Kiss, the cracks of Bucking Bronco, the suckers of Undertow - all of them appear and disappear, many of them with a visual effect similar to that of the long-term effects tears. If this was derived from Elizabeth's powers, this would make sense, but given that this has been retconned in favour of playing with plasmids, the tears; namely, artificial aging and mass cancer. I'd imagine its logic just a quirk of flies out the tears.window.



[[folder:Elizabeth: Comstock and Lady Comstock's Daughter]]
* Over the course of their adventure Elizabeth and Booker realize that Comstock and Lady Comstock are not Elizabeth's father and mother as they had originally thought. Elizabeth and Booker repeatedly say this at various points thereafter. Why then, after they reach the ''Hand of the Prophet'' airship, does Elizabeth still refer to Lady Comstock as her mother and does Booker tell Comstock that Elizabeth is his daughter when they finally confront him? Did they just forget?
-->'''Elizabeth:''' They weren't my parents.\\
-->'''Elizabeth:''' I'm not even his daughter...\\
'''Elizabeth:''' [speaking through a tear] He is ''not'' my father!\\
'''[=DeWitt=]:''' She is ''not'' your daughter.\\
[But after they reach the ''Hand of the Prophet'']\\
'''Elizabeth:''' ...and then in my mother's (Lady Comstock's) grave there was a smaller one.\\
'''[=DeWitt=]:''' [To Comstock] She's your daughter, you son of a bitch!
** Booker was calling out Comstock for abusing his position as Elizabeth's adoptive/foster father, which was horrifying regardless of whether or not he and Elizabeth were technically related. Elizabeth probably just refers to Lady Comstock as her "mother" out of convenience, as she used to think of LC as her mother and Booker knows who she's talking about.

to:

[[folder:Elizabeth: Comstock and Lady Comstock's Daughter]]
[[folder:The Luteces in [=BaS=] Episode 2]]
* Over the course of their adventure Elizabeth and Booker realize that Comstock and Lady Comstock are not Elizabeth's father and mother as they had originally thought. Elizabeth and Booker repeatedly say this at various points thereafter. Why then, after they reach the ''Hand of the Prophet'' airship, does Elizabeth still refer to Lady Comstock as her mother and does Booker tell Comstock The Luteces' engineer it so that Elizabeth is his daughter when they finally confront him? Did they just forget?
-->'''Elizabeth:''' They weren't my parents.\\
-->'''Elizabeth:''' I'm not even his daughter...\\
'''Elizabeth:''' [speaking through a tear] He is ''not'' my father!\\
'''[=DeWitt=]:''' She is ''not'' your daughter.\\
[But after they reach the ''Hand of the Prophet'']\\
'''Elizabeth:''' ...and then in my mother's (Lady Comstock's) grave there was a smaller one.\\
'''[=DeWitt=]:''' [To Comstock] She's your daughter, you son
kills Fitzroy as part of a bitch!
** Booker was calling out Comstock for abusing his position as Elizabeth's adoptive/foster father,
plan to make her an adult. Leaving aside how that makes no sense, it runs ''completely counter'' to their whole plan in the first place, which was horrifying regardless to ''avoid'' the futures where Elizabeth becomes a willing mass murderer. How, exactly, does making her a killer serve that plan? If they were in contact with Fitzroy the entire time (which comes off like a clumsy retcon even by the standards of whether or not he the rest of the DLC) wouldn't it make more sense to, I don't know, order the Vox to protect Booker and Elizabeth were technically related. so they could finish their quest? Or something else that doesn't have yet another group gunning to kill their important patsies?
** I thought the whole "make her a killer" thing was to ensure
Elizabeth probably just refers would have the emotional strength to Lady Comstock as her "mother" out of convenience, as eventually kill off all the Comstocks. If Elizabeth was unwilling to kill anyone she used likely wouldn't have been able to think of LC as her mother and go through with drowning Booker knows who she's talking about.at the end. It would be a lot easier to make her first kill in the heat of the moment instead of premeditating it, and once she had blood on her hands....Well ItGetsEasier. After she overcomes the shock of killing Daisy, she can be ready mentally and emotionally to erase Comstock.




[[folder:The interracial couple]]
* They give you Gear if you tried to throw the baseball at Fink. How do they know? [[https://youtu.be/NyMndWpihTM?t=159 The animation appears identical]].

to:

\n[[folder:The interracial couple]]\n[[folder:Elizabeth Vs Big Daddy]]
* They give you Gear if you tried to throw ''Infinite'' is filled with instances where Elizabeth, barely understanding what her powers can do, saving herself or Booker from imminent peril, and once she gains full control of her abilities she deals with Songbird with a metaphorical flick of her wrist. Meanwhile the baseball flashback at Fink. How do they know? [[https://youtu.be/NyMndWpihTM?t=159 The animation appears identical]].the start of Episode 2 shows Elizabeth trying to plead with a raging metal juggernaut and doing nothing while it slams her into a wall, not teleporting it or herself away or ''anything'', even though at this point she's omniscient and would have seen this happening before she arrived. What the hell happened?
** Pretty sure something kinda similar was asked earlier, and the answer is likely a mix of "She panicked" "She had an insane convoluted plan that required her to become mortal for some reason", and "She didn't initially care if she died in that universe."


Added DiffLines:

23rd Jul '16 10:37:31 PM kithas
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Added DiffLines:

**Fink took black convicts from a man in Georgia so they could do the lowest jobs. It's explicitly said in a Voxophone from the Town Center.
15th Jul '16 9:00:08 PM Blacknuz
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** Wait, that's it, isn't it? The portal appears as a two-dimensional hole, but in effect it's actually an alternate dimension branching out two alternate dimensions, much like the portal gun and the dimension of Xem in Half-Life. What if a small portion of the material found in the dimension between tears got into her bloodstream from the cut, material that could only be obtained just as a portal completely closes? Hence the reason the key appears in her hand - it's where she first made contact with the stuff.

to:

** Wait, that's it, isn't it? The portal appears as a two-dimensional hole, but in effect it's actually an alternate dimension branching out two alternate dimensions, much like the portal gun and the dimension of Xem Xen in Half-Life. What if a small portion of the material found in the dimension between tears got into her bloodstream from the cut, material that could only be obtained just as a portal completely closes? Hence the reason the key appears in her hand - it's where she first made contact with the stuff.
14th Jul '16 8:56:45 PM Blacknuz
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** She's a PhysicalGod? I'm sorry, how exactly? She can warp space as long as she can concentrate, and make things enter another existence? She can't really defend herself from a multitude of threats, and is still capable of getting captured more than a few times, and clearly threatened in ''Burial At Sea''.

to:

** She's a PhysicalGod? I'm sorry, how exactly? She can warp space as long as she can concentrate, and make things enter another existence? She can't really defend herself from a multitude of threats, and is still capable of getting captured more than a few times, and clearly threatened in ''Burial At at Sea''.



** Burial At Sea - Episode 2 depicts a blackboard chalk diagram detailing that Songbird is a heavily modified human being within the suit. This also explains how Songbird was shown to be small enough to be inside Elizabeth's tower - he actually grew. Also explains why his exterior is leather, rather than metal. Without going into too many details, it also explains why Songbird is so susceptible to high, or even moderate pressures.

to:

** Burial At at Sea - Episode 2 depicts a blackboard chalk diagram detailing that Songbird is a heavily modified human being within the suit. This also explains how Songbird was shown to be small enough to be inside Elizabeth's tower - he actually grew. Also explains why his exterior is leather, rather than metal. Without going into too many details, it also explains why Songbird is so susceptible to high, or even moderate pressures.



!!Burial At Sea

to:

!!Burial At at Sea



* Ken Levine made a point of stressing the fact that Burial At Sea pt1's Elizabeth was the Elizabeth we played beside all this time through the original B:I game. Then in episode 2...she dies offscreen, in the first five minutes of the game?

to:

* Ken Levine made a point of stressing the fact that Burial At at Sea pt1's - Episode 1's Elizabeth was the Elizabeth we played beside all this time through the original B:I game. Then in episode 2...she dies offscreen, in the first five minutes of the game?



* So at the end of Burial At Sea, Elizabeth hasn't just saved Sally, but all the Little Sisters and ensured Fontaine would be brought down. But, as Infinite showed, that's just one Fontaine and one Rapture, and there are infinitely many universes where Jack picked the bad ending. Surely it would have been better for God!Elizabeth to act in those universes first and save the one she personally screwed up and died in for last? It's not like time matters when you're a dimension-hopping god. The only possible solutions are to say that Rapture only existed, for whatever reason, in the universe where Bookerstock took up residence there, or that at least it wouldn't have gone to pot without Bookerstock, the Luteces, and Elizabeth's messing around in it, which seems doubtful. The original makes it clear that Rapture was doomed from the start.\\

to:

* So at the end of Burial At at Sea, Elizabeth hasn't just saved Sally, but all the Little Sisters and ensured Fontaine would be brought down. But, as Infinite showed, that's just one Fontaine and one Rapture, and there are infinitely many universes where Jack picked the bad ending. Surely it would have been better for God!Elizabeth to act in those universes first and save the one she personally screwed up and died in for last? It's not like time matters when you're a dimension-hopping god. The only possible solutions are to say that Rapture only existed, for whatever reason, in the universe where Bookerstock took up residence there, or that at least it wouldn't have gone to pot without Bookerstock, the Luteces, and Elizabeth's messing around in it, which seems doubtful. The original makes it clear that Rapture was doomed from the start.\\
3rd Jul '16 2:03:37 PM Discar
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* Before the rise of powered flight, the entire city is an OutsideContextVillain to the armies of the world; even before the tears, assuming that it was only armed with the weapons tech of the era, it could hit any point on Earth with naval-scale bombardment, brings all its logistics with it so there are no supply lines to disrupt or cut, and retreat to higher altitudes if anything shows up that can actually threaten it. It didn't need a superweapon; you could just park it over any city you want disposed of and then drop artillery on it indefinitely. When tear-based technology acquisition ramps up Post-Boxer Rebellion it gets worse, but until the rest of the world catches up they get to do the military equivalent of holding someone at arm's length while they flail at you ineffectively.

to:

* Before the rise of powered flight, the entire city is an OutsideContextVillain OutsideContextProblem to the armies of the world; even before the tears, assuming that it was only armed with the weapons tech of the era, it could hit any point on Earth with naval-scale bombardment, brings all its logistics with it so there are no supply lines to disrupt or cut, and retreat to higher altitudes if anything shows up that can actually threaten it. It didn't need a superweapon; you could just park it over any city you want disposed of and then drop artillery on it indefinitely. When tear-based technology acquisition ramps up Post-Boxer Rebellion it gets worse, but until the rest of the world catches up they get to do the military equivalent of holding someone at arm's length while they flail at you ineffectively.
23rd May '16 8:50:18 AM cricri3007
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to:

[[folder:Absolutely zero trauma?]]
* How comes Elizabeth, who spent her whole life in a tower, is not the least bit disturbed that she's now doing exactly what her father forbid her to do? Why doesn't she have a brief FreakOut ala ''Disney/{{Tangled}}''?
[[/folder]]
23rd Apr '16 8:46:22 PM zanyotaku
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Added DiffLines:

** Honestly I read Elizabeth collapsing herself into one person to do this thing as a combination of reasons. 1) She felt personally responsible for this iteration of Sally since her actions prevented Bookerstock from (presumably) saving her or attempting to save her. 2) She could kick off the events of BioShock 1. and 3) she could ultimately kill herself. By this point it's pretty obvious Liz has become something of a DeathSeeker. Remember when she was going after Bookerstock one of her points was that she felt everything from every iteration of herself. Losing her finger, dying, being tortured by Comstock, etc. and it was also pointed out that this took a huge toll on her mind (which was still human, despite her power). Put together I don't think it's much of a stretch to imagine the fact that she would die at the end was a part of her plan all along.
17th Apr '16 7:45:07 AM Discar
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*** They certainly didn't do a good job not hurting her in my playthrough, where I specifically saw her running behind me and take several bullets to her back, blood-splatter and all.

to:

*** ** They certainly didn't do a good job not hurting her in my playthrough, where I specifically saw her running behind me and take several bullets to her back, blood-splatter and all.



*** Except that altimeter in the rocket bringing you to Columbia shows 15,000 feet, so MST3KMantra seems to be in effect.

to:

*** ** Except that altimeter in the rocket bringing you to Columbia shows 15,000 feet, so MST3KMantra seems to be in effect.



*** That's why her built-in Booker told her about the leap of faith. She didn't EXACTLY know why obtaining Ace in the hole is important, but her visions had shown her it WAS somehow important.

to:

*** ** That's why her built-in Booker told her about the leap of faith. She didn't EXACTLY know why obtaining Ace in the hole is important, but her visions had shown her it WAS somehow important.



*** Rapture was going to fall one way or another. Between the addictive LegoGenetics, unrestrained Objectivist capitalism, mass poverty, and almost complete lack of laws, they were living on borrowed time as it was. Ryan getting rid of Fontaine only staved off the inevitable mass bloodbath for a bit, and Elizabeth bringing him back really didn't do much but accelerate the oncoming civil war.

to:

*** ** Rapture was going to fall one way or another. Between the addictive LegoGenetics, unrestrained Objectivist capitalism, mass poverty, and almost complete lack of laws, they were living on borrowed time as it was. Ryan getting rid of Fontaine only staved off the inevitable mass bloodbath for a bit, and Elizabeth bringing him back really didn't do much but accelerate the oncoming civil war.
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