History Headscratchers / BioShockInfinite

20th Nov '17 5:04:56 PM Termin8r
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[[folder:Elizabeth's Original Powers (Beta)]]
* Back during early game-play trailers in 2010, Elizabeth's powers didn't seem to involve the use of tears at all; she could generate storms, use telekinesis, and could fuse and combine objects into molten constructs. A lot of people have described those powers as either quantum physics or magic. Which is it?
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[[folder:Elizabeth's Original Powers (Beta)]]
* Back during early game-play trailers in 2010, Elizabeth's powers didn't seem to involve the use of tears at all and looked more like magic. She could generate storms, use telekinesis, and could fuse and combine objects into molten constructs. In fact, one trailer actually featured a scene were Elizabeth was about to get hung, similar to the Salem Witch Trails.
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20th Nov '17 5:02:39 PM Termin8r
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* Back during early gameplay trailers in 2010, Elizabeth's powers didn't seem to involve the use of tears and looked more like magic. She could generate storms, use telekinesis, and could fuse and combine objects into molten constructs. In fact, one trailer actually featured a scene were Elizabeth was about to get hung, similar to the Salem Witch Trails.

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* Back during early gameplay trailers in 2010, Elizabeth's powers didn't seem to involve the use of tears and looked more like magic. She could generate storms, use telekinesis, and could fuse and combine objects into molten constructs. In fact, one trailer actually featured a scene were Elizabeth was about to get hung, similar to the Salem Witch Trails.


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[[folder:Elizabeth's Original Powers (Beta)]]
* Back during early game-play trailers in 2010, Elizabeth's powers didn't seem to involve the use of tears at all and looked more like magic. She could generate storms, use telekinesis, and could fuse and combine objects into molten constructs. In fact, one trailer actually featured a scene were Elizabeth was about to get hung, similar to the Salem Witch Trails.
[[/folder]]
20th Nov '17 5:01:18 PM Termin8r
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* Back during early gameplay trailers in 2010, Elizabeth's powers didn't seem to involve the use of tears and looked more like magic. She could generate storms, use telekinesis, and could fuse and combine objects into molten constructs. In fact, one trailer actually featured a scene were Elizabeth was about to get hung, similar to the Salem Witch Trails.
4th Nov '17 9:37:23 AM Malady
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** Certainly didn't look like it; it seemed to be as retro as it has ever been. By the 1980s, it should've been a genuine DeathStar to bring the world down on its knees (to tie into the Jedi references). Rapture at least had the potential of its biotechnology wreaking havoc on the world and as such was a credible threat that shouldn't be allowed to resurface...

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** Certainly didn't look like it; it seemed to be as retro as it has ever been. By the 1980s, it should've been a genuine DeathStar KillSat to bring the world down on its knees (to tie into the Jedi references). Rapture at least had the potential of its biotechnology wreaking havoc on the world and as such was a credible threat that shouldn't be allowed to resurface...
29th Oct '17 7:23:45 PM Malady
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** Also, the lobotomy was a threat, not actually performed?
25th Oct '17 5:27:19 AM Tableleg0
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** As much as Columbia may have advanced, imagine how much the united states has advanced, you have to remember that the Twins are still out there, and as much as they would prefer to alter events through Booker they would eventually give some of Columbia's tech, possibly including tear technology, to the united states. Even if they hadn't, eventually an american spy would have gotten into Columbia and stolen there technology, or a fleeing member of the Vox Populi would have brought some with him/her. At this point Columbia is probably outclassed by 1980s tech and use of Vigor and tears. Its likely that the Columbia we see in that clip isn't a victorious Columbia, or even a Columbia that has just made itself known. Its very likely a Columbia frantically trying to take at least one city with it before its ripped from the sky.
24th Sep '17 9:35:52 AM AgentSDWhite
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* Burial at Sea Part 2 informs us that if a being like Elizabeth or the Luteces re-manifest a world in which they have already died, then they become mortal once again. This makes the scene of Songbird's death via transporting to Rapture make little to no sense, knowing what we do about the conclusion of Burial at Sea: There are multiple pieces of evidence that the Entrance Room where Elizabeth, Booker and Songbird arrive that they arrive there AFTER New Years Eve of 1958: The disarray surrounding the two suggesting sustained rebellion against Ryan, the dead Big Daddy across the way with a Little Sister sobbing over it (The pair-bond issue that had been plaguing Suchong was only fixed around the time of his death, roughly January 14th 1959, and is demonstrated pretty fully from these two), and the death cry of Songbird being allegedly heard in ''VideoGame/BioShock'' just before Cohen's student Fitzpatrick is killed (This is circumstantial since I am told the sound is heard at other points in the game, and while I am yet to confirm those instances, I can't disprove the idea it's merely coincidence.) On New Year Eve of 1958, both Comstock and Elizabeth faced down a severely pissed off Big Daddy. Said Daddy went on to kill both of them. Elizabeth survives due to godlike power at this point, but gives all of it up to return to Rapture and save Sally. Her actions then go on to directly influence how Rapture develops. She is responsible for bringing Jack to Rapture. She is then killed a second, permanent time. This means that in any universe where the civil war in Rapture kicked off, there had to been an Elizabeth's death at the cause of it, especially if we go by Word of God telling us that ''Burial at Sea'' and ''VideoGame/BioShock'' take place in "Rapture Prime", making it the constant, rather than the variable. What does this all add up to? Elizabeth cannot re-manifest in Rapture at the time she seemingly does, because doing so would rob her of her powers and the climax of Infinite would no longer be able to happen. Now, I am aware that after a point the ending stops taking place in what we could conceive as "reality", but it was not at this point, as there had to be SOMETHING that killed Songbird not wrapped up in metaphor and poetry. New facts added in Burial at Sea made this fairly poignant scene make little to no sense.

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* Burial at Sea Part 2 informs us that if a being like Elizabeth or the Luteces re-manifest a world in which they have already died, then they become mortal once again. This makes the scene of Songbird's death via transporting (via teleporting to Rapture Rapture) make little to no sense, knowing what we do about the conclusion of Burial at Sea: There are multiple pieces of evidence that the Entrance Room where Elizabeth, Booker and Songbird arrive that they arrive there AFTER New Years Eve of 1958: The disarray surrounding the two suggesting sustained rebellion against Ryan, the dead Big Daddy across the way with a Little Sister sobbing over it (The pair-bond issue that had been plaguing Suchong was only fixed around the time of his death, roughly January 14th 1959, and is demonstrated pretty fully from these two), and the death cry of Songbird being allegedly heard in ''VideoGame/BioShock'' just before Cohen's student Fitzpatrick is killed (This is circumstantial since I am told the sound is heard at other points in the game, and while I am yet to confirm those instances, I can't disprove the idea it's merely coincidence.) On New Year Eve of 1958, both Comstock and Elizabeth faced down a severely pissed off Big Daddy. Said Daddy went on to kill both of them. Elizabeth survives due to godlike power at this point, but gives all of it up to return to Rapture and save Sally. Her actions then go on to directly influence how Rapture develops. She is responsible for bringing Jack to Rapture. She is then killed a second, permanent time. This means that in any universe where the civil war in Rapture kicked off, there had to been an Elizabeth's death at the cause of it, especially if we go by Word of God telling us that ''Burial at Sea'' and ''VideoGame/BioShock'' take place in "Rapture Prime", making it the constant, rather than the variable. What does this all add up to? Elizabeth cannot re-manifest in Rapture at the time she seemingly does, because doing so would rob her of her powers and the climax of Infinite would no longer be able to happen. Now, I am aware that after a point the ending stops taking place in what we could conceive as "reality", but it was not at this point, as there had to be SOMETHING that killed Songbird not wrapped up in metaphor and poetry. New facts added in Burial at Sea made this fairly poignant scene make little to no sense.


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*** It may have been the third time that Elizabeth visited Rapture, but it doesn't change that she had already died in Rapture by the time she arrives there with Booker and Songbird. She even says during the game that they drowned Songbird in 1960, a year after Atlas killed her. It already happened to Elizabeth, but it hasn't happened to Rapture yet. Likewise, when she, Booker and Songbird teleport there in 1960, Elizabeth has already died in Rapture, but it hasn't happened to her yet. That doesn't change the rules that the Luteces explain to her, and it doesn't change that these rules make the ending of Infinite completely unable to happen.
21st Sep '17 11:22:23 AM CosmicFerret
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** Think about it; is there a rule that says no two alternate universes can be exactly the same? Hence Rosiland's 'Tide' analogy: even if you undo a universe in an infinite number of universes, there's bound to be another universe that is exactly alike. Or, there might be a universe where almost everything in Bioshock Infinite happened except the time paradox eraser.

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** Think about it; is there a rule that says no two alternate universes can be exactly the same? Hence Rosiland's 'Tide' analogy: even if you undo a universe in an infinite number of universes, there's bound to be another universe that is exactly alike. Or, there might be a universe where almost everything in Bioshock Infinite VideoGame/BioShockInfinite happened except the time paradox eraser.



** Honestly I read Elizabeth collapsing herself into one person to do this thing as a combination of reasons. 1) She felt personally responsible for this iteration of Sally since her actions prevented Bookerstock from (presumably) saving her or attempting to save her. 2) She could kick off the events of BioShock 1. and 3) she could ultimately kill herself. By this point it's pretty obvious Liz has become something of a DeathSeeker. Remember when she was going after Bookerstock one of her points was that she felt everything from every iteration of herself. Losing her finger, dying, being tortured by Comstock, etc. and it was also pointed out that this took a huge toll on her mind (which was still human, despite her power). Put together I don't think it's much of a stretch to imagine the fact that she would die at the end was a part of her plan all along.

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** Honestly I read Elizabeth collapsing herself into one person to do this thing as a combination of reasons. 1) She felt personally responsible for this iteration of Sally since her actions prevented Bookerstock from (presumably) saving her or attempting to save her. 2) She could kick off the events of BioShock VideoGame/BioShock 1. and 3) she could ultimately kill herself. By this point it's pretty obvious Liz has become something of a DeathSeeker. Remember when she was going after Bookerstock one of her points was that she felt everything from every iteration of herself. Losing her finger, dying, being tortured by Comstock, etc. and it was also pointed out that this took a huge toll on her mind (which was still human, despite her power). Put together I don't think it's much of a stretch to imagine the fact that she would die at the end was a part of her plan all along.



* Elizabeth loses her powers because she went back to a universe where she died. But the Luteces died in the universe of Bioshock: Infinte. You can find a Voxophone of them confronting the man who did their funeral photos. So why didn't they get {{Brought Down to Normal}} then? Or any of the other times they manifested before Booker and Elizabeth?

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* Elizabeth loses her powers because she went back to a universe where she died. But the Luteces died in the universe of Bioshock: Infinte.VideoGame/BioShockInfinite. You can find a Voxophone of them confronting the man who did their funeral photos. So why didn't they get {{Brought Down to Normal}} then? Or any of the other times they manifested before Booker and Elizabeth?
21st Sep '17 11:21:16 AM CosmicFerret
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** Maybe Elizabeth doesn't merge universes either, but creates them. It may sound farfetched, but in the Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum physics universes are constantly being created because for each possibility there is a universe in which it becomes true, so you would create a new one just by making a choice (even if in the BioShockInfinite multiverse some possibilities never materialize, the interpretation could work for the rest of them). In this case, you may have created the universe to which you arrive by deciding to open the tear. And said universe could have been influenced by Elizabeth's memories; after all, she says that the Siren (also brought to life by her powers) was influenced by her thoughts about her mother.

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** Maybe Elizabeth doesn't merge universes either, but creates them. It may sound farfetched, but in the Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum physics universes are constantly being created because for each possibility there is a universe in which it becomes true, so you would create a new one just by making a choice (even if in the BioShockInfinite VideoGame/BioShockInfinite multiverse some possibilities never materialize, the interpretation could work for the rest of them). In this case, you may have created the universe to which you arrive by deciding to open the tear. And said universe could have been influenced by Elizabeth's memories; after all, she says that the Siren (also brought to life by her powers) was influenced by her thoughts about her mother.



** Either the events of ''VideoGame/BioShock1'' hadn't yet happened, it's another universal version of Rapture to the one in the ''VideoGame/BioShock'' games, or the fact she's a nearly omniscient reality walker.
** You can hear the Songbird dying in the first ''VideoGame/BioShock1'' just around the time you see Sander's student playing the piano, so it's pretty likely that Elizabeth and Booker travelled to around the same point as the first game.
** Really? Interesting. I thought Booker and Lizzie's little trip in Rapture actually predated Jack's arrival, mostly because when the duo visit, the place is actually much less trashed. Not utterly pristine, mind you, but still, I'd have to replay ''VideoGame/BioShock1'' a bit to make sure.

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** Either the events of ''VideoGame/BioShock1'' ''VideoGame/BioShock'' hadn't yet happened, it's another universal version of Rapture to the one in the ''VideoGame/BioShock'' games, or the fact she's a nearly omniscient reality walker.
** You can hear the Songbird dying in the first ''VideoGame/BioShock1'' ''VideoGame/BioShock'' just around the time you see Sander's student playing the piano, so it's pretty likely that Elizabeth and Booker travelled to around the same point as the first game.
** Really? Interesting. I thought Booker and Lizzie's little trip in Rapture actually predated Jack's arrival, mostly because when the duo visit, the place is actually much less trashed. Not utterly pristine, mind you, but still, I'd have to replay ''VideoGame/BioShock1'' ''VideoGame/BioShock'' a bit to make sure.



** From what I understand, Booker is ''Infinite's'' reality version of Jack, the original protagonist of ''VideoGame/BioShock1'' (there is always a man, a girl and a lighthouse). Jack is the illegitimate son of Ryan which allowed him to use the Vita-Chambers and Bathysphere throughout Rapture. If Booker is this reality's version of Jack then he may or may not be related in some way to Andrew Ryan, allowing him to use the Bathysphere across the other reality. Multiple universes are fun.

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** From what I understand, Booker is ''Infinite's'' reality version of Jack, the original protagonist of ''VideoGame/BioShock1'' ''VideoGame/BioShock'' (there is always a man, a girl and a lighthouse). Jack is the illegitimate son of Ryan which allowed him to use the Vita-Chambers and Bathysphere throughout Rapture. If Booker is this reality's version of Jack then he may or may not be related in some way to Andrew Ryan, allowing him to use the Bathysphere across the other reality. Multiple universes are fun.



[[folder:Parallels to ''[=BioShock=]'']]

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[[folder:Parallels to ''[=BioShock=]'']]''VideoGame/BioShock'']]



** I meant which character in ''[=BioShock=] Infinite'' is the parallel to Jack, if there is one.

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** I meant which character in ''[=BioShock=] Infinite'' ''VideoGame/BioShockInfinite'' is the parallel to Jack, if there is one.



** Except that doesn't make sense because the light comes from their front, not the sides. I was confused too, thinking they would detect me through sound, and it took two failures for me to realize that they worked pretty much like ''[=BioShock=]'s'' cameras (stay away from the beam and you're okay; you can ''run'' past it and you'll be fine). They're still creepy like hell, but they sure weren't what they promised.

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** Except that doesn't make sense because the light comes from their front, not the sides. I was confused too, thinking they would detect me through sound, and it took two failures for me to realize that they worked pretty much like ''[=BioShock=]'s'' ''VideoGame/BioShock's'' cameras (stay away from the beam and you're okay; you can ''run'' past it and you'll be fine). They're still creepy like hell, but they sure weren't what they promised.



[[folder:''Infinite'' and ''BioShock'' 1 & 2]]
* I get that Columbia never happens, Tears are never found etc. after the ending but... shouldn't ''[=BioShock=]'' 1/2 still take place? They don't explicitly have the characters of Booker, Comstock, Elizabeth, Songbird and so on, but they do have parallels or spiritual successors (Eleanor and Subject Delta for the last two, at least) so the idea that there's always a lighthouse, a man and a rescue would remain true as a ''Doctor Who'' style "fixed point" in time -- those things always have to be there, regardless of this Columbia saga. Is this completely wrong and Booker and Elizabeth saved all of time from a Columbia whether it's flying or in the ocean? Have they just stopped Columbia happening (with Booker and Anna allowed to live their lives normally), making ''[=BioShock=] Infinite'' a prequel to ''[=BioShock=]'' 1/2?

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[[folder:''Infinite'' and ''BioShock'' ''VideoGame/BioShock'' 1 & 2]]
* I get that Columbia never happens, Tears are never found etc. after the ending but... shouldn't ''[=BioShock=]'' ''VideoGame/BioShock'' 1/2 still take place? They don't explicitly have the characters of Booker, Comstock, Elizabeth, Songbird and so on, but they do have parallels or spiritual successors (Eleanor and Subject Delta for the last two, at least) so the idea that there's always a lighthouse, a man and a rescue would remain true as a ''Doctor Who'' style "fixed point" in time -- those things always have to be there, regardless of this Columbia saga. Is this completely wrong and Booker and Elizabeth saved all of time from a Columbia whether it's flying or in the ocean? Have they just stopped Columbia happening (with Booker and Anna allowed to live their lives normally), making ''[=BioShock=] Infinite'' ''VideoGame/BioShockInfinite'' a prequel to ''[=BioShock=]'' ''VideoGame/BioShock'' 1/2?



** To punctuate this fine answer, consider the case of the coin flip during the fair. If the game truly subscribed to the infinite worlds theory, then the results would be a rough 50/50 split. However, the coin result is ''always Heads'': there exists no universe where the coin flip is Tails. This event is here to emphasise the fact that, according to the mechanics of the ''[=BioShock=] Infinite'' universe, there are some events that will ''always'' proceed the same way. Booker can choose to throw the baseball at the couple, at the announcer or not at all, but he will ''always'' choose ball 77 (even after explicitly being told not to) and he will always be "outed" as the False Shepherd. In the same way, Columbia will always be a cesspool of racism, Booker will always be a drunkard, Comstock will always be a crazy person, etc, etc.

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** To punctuate this fine answer, consider the case of the coin flip during the fair. If the game truly subscribed to the infinite worlds theory, then the results would be a rough 50/50 split. However, the coin result is ''always Heads'': there exists no universe where the coin flip is Tails. This event is here to emphasise the fact that, according to the mechanics of the ''[=BioShock=] Infinite'' ''VideoGame/BioShockInfinite'' universe, there are some events that will ''always'' proceed the same way. Booker can choose to throw the baseball at the couple, at the announcer or not at all, but he will ''always'' choose ball 77 (even after explicitly being told not to) and he will always be "outed" as the False Shepherd. In the same way, Columbia will always be a cesspool of racism, Booker will always be a drunkard, Comstock will always be a crazy person, etc, etc.



** I figured someone was going to give that handwave. Counterpoint: ''VideoGame/SystemShock2'', from which the ''[=BioShock=]'' series borrows heavily. That game gave a solid explanation for the situation: 1) The vending machines are all generic. 2) They can also be reprogrammed to produce a variety of things on account of nanomachine construction. 3) Only one side of the conflict used them.

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** I figured someone was going to give that handwave. Counterpoint: ''VideoGame/SystemShock2'', from which the ''[=BioShock=]'' ''VideoGame/BioShock'' series borrows heavily. That game gave a solid explanation for the situation: 1) The vending machines are all generic. 2) They can also be reprogrammed to produce a variety of things on account of nanomachine construction. 3) Only one side of the conflict used them.



** ''[=BioShock=] Infinite'' is not ''VideoGame/SystemShock2''. What applies in ''System Shock'' does not automatically apply in ''[=BioShock=]''. There is no in-universe explanation for the discrepancies concerning the vending machines in ''Infinite''. That's just the way it is.

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** ''[=BioShock=] Infinite'' ''VideoGame/BioShockInfinite'' is not ''VideoGame/SystemShock2''. What applies in ''System Shock'' does not automatically apply in ''[=BioShock=]''.''VideoGame/BioShock''. There is no in-universe explanation for the discrepancies concerning the vending machines in ''Infinite''. That's just the way it is.



* Sadly, the existence of Vigors in Columbia makes absolutely no God damn sense in the context of the story. Aside from possibly being justified by Fink [[spoiler: being inspired by Plasmids by viewing Rapture through a tear]], they seem to exist in a vacuum apart from the setting as a whole. In the original ''VideoGame/BioShock1'', Plasmids were an integral part of Rapture, both in construction and its ultimate downfall. Where do Vigors fit into Columbia? I dont know, and neither does Infinite. There are advertisements for Vigors all over the city, and you can find bottles of the stuff lying around, but very few Columbians use them. In a society that espouses racial purity, youd think Vigors would be more of an issue. After all, they can turn a person into a demigod, regardless of race. But this never comes up. Instead they merely exist as a hold over from the old games to give an excuse for why Booker can shoot lightning from his finger tips instead of feeling like a very tangible element of the narrative like they were in the original game.

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* Sadly, the existence of Vigors in Columbia makes absolutely no God damn sense in the context of the story. Aside from possibly being justified by Fink [[spoiler: being inspired by Plasmids by viewing Rapture through a tear]], they seem to exist in a vacuum apart from the setting as a whole. In the original ''VideoGame/BioShock1'', ''VideoGame/BioShock'', Plasmids were an integral part of Rapture, both in construction and its ultimate downfall. Where do Vigors fit into Columbia? I dont know, and neither does Infinite. There are advertisements for Vigors all over the city, and you can find bottles of the stuff lying around, but very few Columbians use them. In a society that espouses racial purity, youd think Vigors would be more of an issue. After all, they can turn a person into a demigod, regardless of race. But this never comes up. Instead they merely exist as a hold over from the old games to give an excuse for why Booker can shoot lightning from his finger tips instead of feeling like a very tangible element of the narrative like they were in the original game.



** The point the story takes place in might partially explain that. When you enter Rapture in ''[=BioShock=]'', it's been years since Plasmids were first developed, spread amongst the population, then discovered to drive the user mad over time and repeated use. Columbia hasn't fallen to ruin when Booker arrives, and it is implied they are still introducing Vigors to the populace. Then you have to consider the difference in residents' mindsets. Rapture was led by a man who believed in science, risks, etc. Columbia encouraged fearful worship and following the path of God. So Rapture might be more careless in developing and spreading Vigors than Rapture was.

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** The point the story takes place in might partially explain that. When you enter Rapture in ''[=BioShock=]'', ''VideoGame/BioShock'', it's been years since Plasmids were first developed, spread amongst the population, then discovered to drive the user mad over time and repeated use. Columbia hasn't fallen to ruin when Booker arrives, and it is implied they are still introducing Vigors to the populace. Then you have to consider the difference in residents' mindsets. Rapture was led by a man who believed in science, risks, etc. Columbia encouraged fearful worship and following the path of God. So Rapture might be more careless in developing and spreading Vigors than Rapture was.



** But Vigors aren't found in random and arbitrary places, in many occasions. There are numerous rooms with fireplaces in the game...and what's found nearby? Devil's Kiss. There are several maintenance and service rooms. What's in there? Shock Jockey, Bucking Bronco -- things that can aid with power and moving heavy crates or machinery. Where will you find Return to Sender? Abandoned in a crate on the battle-scarred streets of Emporia. Although we don't see many citizens actively using Vigors, we have more than enough evidence in the world that their use is widespread and practical, aside from a few exceptions (such as Charge, which is found only once -- and it's impounded). If you recall, in the first ''VideoGame/BioShock1'', offensive Plasmids weren't seen used very often, either, outside of Houdini and Spider Splicers. They weren't seen being used practically. But it was implied! And not nearly as commonly as in ''Infinite''.

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** But Vigors aren't found in random and arbitrary places, in many occasions. There are numerous rooms with fireplaces in the game...and what's found nearby? Devil's Kiss. There are several maintenance and service rooms. What's in there? Shock Jockey, Bucking Bronco -- things that can aid with power and moving heavy crates or machinery. Where will you find Return to Sender? Abandoned in a crate on the battle-scarred streets of Emporia. Although we don't see many citizens actively using Vigors, we have more than enough evidence in the world that their use is widespread and practical, aside from a few exceptions (such as Charge, which is found only once -- and it's impounded). If you recall, in the first ''VideoGame/BioShock1'', ''VideoGame/BioShock'', offensive Plasmids weren't seen used very often, either, outside of Houdini and Spider Splicers. They weren't seen being used practically. But it was implied! And not nearly as commonly as in ''Infinite''.



** Maybe the Decoy Bookers come from an alternate reality where life-sized Booker robots were built to promote the release of ''Bioshock: Infinite.'' Kind of like our reality, except with better technology. Either that, or an alternate Booker became a nostalgic old rich guy who hired somebody to build a bunch of functioning automatons to remind him of when he was still in his prime.

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** Maybe the Decoy Bookers come from an alternate reality where life-sized Booker robots were built to promote the release of ''Bioshock: Infinite.''VideoGame/BioShockInfinite.'' Kind of like our reality, except with better technology. Either that, or an alternate Booker became a nostalgic old rich guy who hired somebody to build a bunch of functioning automatons to remind him of when he was still in his prime.



* If we're to believe the generally accepted explanation of what the ending of ''[=BioShock=] Infinite'' means, it is that Elizabeth, in drowning Booker [=DeWitt=] in the baptism pool before the choice between [=DeWitt's=] path and Comstock's is made, utterly obliterates every timeline which involves Booker [=DeWitt=] becoming Zachary Comstock by killing him at the very point where that choice is made. Thus, we are to believe, Comstock CANNOT exist anywhere in any universe as Booker can never become him, found Columbia, rain holy fire on the world etc. But ''Burial at Sea'' quite clearly proves that to be horseshit, because it now turns out that far from preventing any Comstock from ever existing, he still does in at least some timelines, and Elizabeth (presumably the last one left in the BS:I ending) has to roam around the multiverse to get revenge on his various incarnations individually. WHAT. THE. FUCK. You can either take this one of two ways: either Elizabeth's timeline-reality-warping at the end of BS:I was never going to destroy all the Comstocks, in which case there was no point drowning Booker at all other than RuleOfDrama (and this directly contradicts what Liz herself says about Comstock's still being alive in "a million million worlds" necessitating him being smothered in the crib), or the explanation given for what Elizabeth did makes absolutely no sense and therefore neither does the ending, even as a metaphor. Either way it somehow manages to RetCon ''in'' a plot hole, which seems at best deeply unsatisfying and at worst something that completely ruins the first game entirely...

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* If we're to believe the generally accepted explanation of what the ending of ''[=BioShock=] Infinite'' ''VideoGame/BioShockInfinite'' means, it is that Elizabeth, in drowning Booker [=DeWitt=] in the baptism pool before the choice between [=DeWitt's=] path and Comstock's is made, utterly obliterates every timeline which involves Booker [=DeWitt=] becoming Zachary Comstock by killing him at the very point where that choice is made. Thus, we are to believe, Comstock CANNOT exist anywhere in any universe as Booker can never become him, found Columbia, rain holy fire on the world etc. But ''Burial at Sea'' quite clearly proves that to be horseshit, because it now turns out that far from preventing any Comstock from ever existing, he still does in at least some timelines, and Elizabeth (presumably the last one left in the BS:I ending) has to roam around the multiverse to get revenge on his various incarnations individually. WHAT. THE. FUCK. You can either take this one of two ways: either Elizabeth's timeline-reality-warping at the end of BS:I was never going to destroy all the Comstocks, in which case there was no point drowning Booker at all other than RuleOfDrama (and this directly contradicts what Liz herself says about Comstock's still being alive in "a million million worlds" necessitating him being smothered in the crib), or the explanation given for what Elizabeth did makes absolutely no sense and therefore neither does the ending, even as a metaphor. Either way it somehow manages to RetCon ''in'' a plot hole, which seems at best deeply unsatisfying and at worst something that completely ruins the first game entirely...



** But in how the Lutece twins explain time, there is no such thing as BEFORE Comstock being erased, Comstock is erased, will be erased, has been erased. All time is simultaneous. The only explanation is that indeed, ''[=BioShock=]'''s ending is BS, or rather Elizabeth and Booker have no idea what they were doing. They thought they erased the timeline, but in fact, it was all futile, because there are always constants, and introducing new constants only introduces new timelines.

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** But in how the Lutece twins explain time, there is no such thing as BEFORE Comstock being erased, Comstock is erased, will be erased, has been erased. All time is simultaneous. The only explanation is that indeed, ''[=BioShock=]'''s ''VideoGame/BioShock'''s ending is BS, or rather Elizabeth and Booker have no idea what they were doing. They thought they erased the timeline, but in fact, it was all futile, because there are always constants, and introducing new constants only introduces new timelines.



* For some reason, no one on the Internet is bringing that up. The original ''VideoGame/BioShock1'' [[http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Protecting_Little_Ones establishes]] that Big Daddies were created during the Atlas/Ryan civil war in 1959. But they appear in ''Burial at Sea'', which is an anachronism, since this DLC is set shortly before the start of the war, and there isn't yet "a genetic arms race" going on nor a whole lot of corpses lying on the streets. And the Bouncer that fights Booker is clearly shown to be protecting Sally, which means these Big Daddies aren't just maintenance workers who would later be given a new function. It's understandable why the developers wanted to include such an iconic element of Rapture as the Big Daddy, but they didn't quite think this through from the writing standpoint. Of course, the discrepancy could easily be explained by this Rapture not being in the same reality as the one from ''[=BioShock=]'', but Ken Levine's words in [[http://www.computerandvideogames.com/432380/interviews/return-to-rapture-ken-levine-on-bioshock-infinite-burial-at-sea/ an interview]] imply that this is, in fact, the Rapture from the first game. So, is this a retcon, or is this Rapture really a different one? [[https://twitter.com/IGLevine Asking]] Ken about it might shed some light on the issue. ''Burial at Sea'' Episode 2 may also provide some answers. There was a similar discrepancy in ''VideoGame/BioShock2'', with Suchong dying at the hands of a Big Daddy before the New Year's Eve, although IG apparently doesn't consider this game canon, and Burial at Sea contradicts it in regard to Big Daddies, already having Bouncers around in Rapture.

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* For some reason, no one on the Internet is bringing that up. The original ''VideoGame/BioShock1'' ''VideoGame/BioShock'' [[http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Protecting_Little_Ones establishes]] that Big Daddies were created during the Atlas/Ryan civil war in 1959. But they appear in ''Burial at Sea'', which is an anachronism, since this DLC is set shortly before the start of the war, and there isn't yet "a genetic arms race" going on nor a whole lot of corpses lying on the streets. And the Bouncer that fights Booker is clearly shown to be protecting Sally, which means these Big Daddies aren't just maintenance workers who would later be given a new function. It's understandable why the developers wanted to include such an iconic element of Rapture as the Big Daddy, but they didn't quite think this through from the writing standpoint. Of course, the discrepancy could easily be explained by this Rapture not being in the same reality as the one from ''[=BioShock=]'', ''VideoGame/BioShock'', but Ken Levine's words in [[http://www.computerandvideogames.com/432380/interviews/return-to-rapture-ken-levine-on-bioshock-infinite-burial-at-sea/ an interview]] imply that this is, in fact, the Rapture from the first game. So, is this a retcon, or is this Rapture really a different one? [[https://twitter.com/IGLevine Asking]] Ken about it might shed some light on the issue. ''Burial at Sea'' Episode 2 may also provide some answers. There was a similar discrepancy in ''VideoGame/BioShock2'', with Suchong dying at the hands of a Big Daddy before the New Year's Eve, although IG apparently doesn't consider this game canon, and Burial at Sea contradicts it in regard to Big Daddies, already having Bouncers around in Rapture.



** The same Big Daddy issue exists in the ''[=BioShock=]'' prequel novel ''[[Literature/BioShockRapture Rapture]]'', but that incorporates characters from the sequel too, so that might not be canon.

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** The same Big Daddy issue exists in the ''[=BioShock=]'' ''VideoGame/BioShock'' prequel novel ''[[Literature/BioShockRapture Rapture]]'', but that incorporates characters from the sequel too, so that might not be canon.



* Why are there Vigors in 1959's Rapture? If they were Plasmids in any other thing except name I'd understand, but they are not only most of the same Vigors you find in Columbia (including "Shock Jockey" instead of Electro Bolt) and they make people crazy, but they are not injected. (INB4 they are using the ''[=BioShock=] Infinite'' engine. I'm sure they could have tweaked it a bit if they really meant to.)

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* Why are there Vigors in 1959's Rapture? If they were Plasmids in any other thing except name I'd understand, but they are not only most of the same Vigors you find in Columbia (including "Shock Jockey" instead of Electro Bolt) and they make people crazy, but they are not injected. (INB4 they are using the ''[=BioShock=] Infinite'' ''VideoGame/BioShockInfinite'' engine. I'm sure they could have tweaked it a bit if they really meant to.)



** Looks pretty fake to me, like he smeared his face with a calligraphy pen. Come to think of it, I don't think he even his mustache in ''VideoGame/BioShock1'' was real, looking back at it. But yeah, no facial hair could be that smooth.

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** Looks pretty fake to me, like he smeared his face with a calligraphy pen. Come to think of it, I don't think he even his mustache in ''VideoGame/BioShock1'' ''VideoGame/BioShock'' was real, looking back at it. But yeah, no facial hair could be that smooth.



[[folder: ''BioShock 2'' considered noncanon?]]

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[[folder: ''BioShock 2'' ''VideoGame/BioShock2'' considered noncanon?]]



** For the Meta reason, ''[=BioShock=] 2'' was not developed by Ken Levine's team, and in interviews they've mentioned not being particularly fond of it (to say the least). While making ''Burial at Sea'', they pretty much ignored ''[=BioShock=] 2'', although there's nothing that overtly renders it non-canon.
** While Delta is never stated to have killed Suchong, having his death occur on the New Year's Eve of the Kashmir renders the second game non-canon. Suchong's death is never given a specific date, but in the ''[=BioShock=] 2'' universe, it is explicitly stated that his death occurs prior to the creation of the Alpha series, because while the Big Daddy who killed him imprinted on the little sister, he would only react if she was in trouble or he needed her. He would otherwise wander off and do his own thing. Alexander surmises that this means there must be a stronger bond formed, because otherwise the Big Daddy will wander away and the little sister will be left defenseless. Thus Alpha series, and the conditioning that kills Delta if he's too far from Eleanor comes into play. Sofia Lamb takes Eleanor DURING the Kashmir attack. Eleanor and Delta, the first successful bonded pair of the Alpha series, are already functioning in their roles as a Little Sister and Big Daddy by the time the New Year's party attack happens. If the events of ''[=BioShock=] 2'' were to take place at all, Suchong has to have died BEFORE the New Year, in order to give time for the Alpha series to be created afterward, when Gil Alexander takes over the project, and for there to be three failed attempts to create the bonded pair before Eleanor and Delta are put together. By placing the death on the New Year, they render the events of the second game void.

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** For the Meta reason, ''[=BioShock=] 2'' ''VideoGame/BioShock2'' was not developed by Ken Levine's team, and in interviews they've mentioned not being particularly fond of it (to say the least). While making ''Burial at Sea'', they pretty much ignored ''[=BioShock=] 2'', ''VideoGame/BioShock2'', although there's nothing that overtly renders it non-canon.
** While Delta is never stated to have killed Suchong, having his death occur on the New Year's Eve of the Kashmir renders the second game non-canon. Suchong's death is never given a specific date, but in the ''[=BioShock=] 2'' ''VideoGame/BioShock2'' universe, it is explicitly stated that his death occurs prior to the creation of the Alpha series, because while the Big Daddy who killed him imprinted on the little sister, he would only react if she was in trouble or he needed her. He would otherwise wander off and do his own thing. Alexander surmises that this means there must be a stronger bond formed, because otherwise the Big Daddy will wander away and the little sister will be left defenseless. Thus Alpha series, and the conditioning that kills Delta if he's too far from Eleanor comes into play. Sofia Lamb takes Eleanor DURING the Kashmir attack. Eleanor and Delta, the first successful bonded pair of the Alpha series, are already functioning in their roles as a Little Sister and Big Daddy by the time the New Year's party attack happens. If the events of ''[=BioShock=] 2'' ''VideoGame/BioShock2'' were to take place at all, Suchong has to have died BEFORE the New Year, in order to give time for the Alpha series to be created afterward, when Gil Alexander takes over the project, and for there to be three failed attempts to create the bonded pair before Eleanor and Delta are put together. By placing the death on the New Year, they render the events of the second game void.



** [[MST3KMantra Don't think too much about it.]] I admit it is possible I missed something, but when it comes to the timeline, Burial at Sea can't even seem to get itself consistent, let alone with Bioshock 2. To wit, Suchong's death in Episode 2 has him complaining about how they can't get the Big Daddies to protect the Sisters, but that's exactly what the one at the end of Episode 1 was doing.

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** [[MST3KMantra Don't think too much about it.]] I admit it is possible I missed something, but when it comes to the timeline, Burial at Sea can't even seem to get itself consistent, let alone with Bioshock 2.VideoGame/BioShock2. To wit, Suchong's death in Episode 2 has him complaining about how they can't get the Big Daddies to protect the Sisters, but that's exactly what the one at the end of Episode 1 was doing.



** Yeah, that's exactly what she would do, since it's exactly what she did to Comstock before they retconned it to force Infinite to be a prequel to ''VideoGame/BioShock1''. It's not too far fetched to imagine that there was an event in Ryan's life that "made" him who he was; why couldn't she kill him at the point where he decided to build rapture?

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** Yeah, that's exactly what she would do, since it's exactly what she did to Comstock before they retconned it to force Infinite to be a prequel to ''VideoGame/BioShock1''.''VideoGame/BioShock''. It's not too far fetched to imagine that there was an event in Ryan's life that "made" him who he was; why couldn't she kill him at the point where he decided to build rapture?



[[folder: So Infinite is really [[spoiler: BioShock's prequel?]]]]
* Let me get this straight...everything Booker, Comstock and Elizabeth did in the past year was just to set-up the beginning of the original ''VideoGame/BioShock1?

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[[folder: So Infinite is really [[spoiler: BioShock's VideoGame/BioShock's prequel?]]]]
* Let me get this straight...everything Booker, Comstock and Elizabeth did in the past year was just to set-up the beginning of the original ''VideoGame/BioShock1?''VideoGame/BioShock?



** I wouldn't call ''setting off the entire events of the plot'' just a footnote, plus it's implied that the good ending of ''[=BioShock=]'' 1 is canon here, so by bringing Jack there she saved all of the Little Sisters and made it possible for them to all have normal lives on the surface - which also saves Sally, which makes up for her using the girl as a pawn in her revenge scheme in the first part. Also...maybe some version of her is still alive/omnipotent because of quantum whatsits.

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** I wouldn't call ''setting off the entire events of the plot'' just a footnote, plus it's implied that the good ending of ''[=BioShock=]'' ''VideoGame/BioShock'' 1 is canon here, so by bringing Jack there she saved all of the Little Sisters and made it possible for them to all have normal lives on the surface - which also saves Sally, which makes up for her using the girl as a pawn in her revenge scheme in the first part. Also...maybe some version of her is still alive/omnipotent because of quantum whatsits.



--->A lot of criticism has been aimed at the fact that Elizabeth lets herself become mortal [[spoiler: and sacrifices herself]] just so she can save Sally and the rest of the Little Sisters. But was it really just about saving Sally? No; she did everything she did because [[spoiler: it lead to Jack eventually bringing down Fontaine. Remember Fontaine's admitted goals in the first ''[=BioShock=]'': he eventually wanted to return to the surface with his new empire. At worst he would have subjugated the world with an army of jacked-up (if mentally unstable) super humans. At best, he would have put ADAM on the market and [[CrapsackWorld turned the surface into a copy of Rapture]]. Much like Booker saw a future where Columbia ended up destroying the surface, Elizabeth likely saw a future where Fontaine brought ADAM to the surface and caused a decline in society like what happened in Rapture]]. The parallels are even more obvious when you compare them to [[spoiler: the revelation that Daisy Fitzroy demonized and sacrificed herself to eventually bring Comstock's end]]: this was bigger than saving just the Little Sisters, [[spoiler: this was about saving the ''entire world'']].

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--->A lot of criticism has been aimed at the fact that Elizabeth lets herself become mortal [[spoiler: and sacrifices herself]] just so she can save Sally and the rest of the Little Sisters. But was it really just about saving Sally? No; she did everything she did because [[spoiler: it lead to Jack eventually bringing down Fontaine. Remember Fontaine's admitted goals in the first ''[=BioShock=]'': ''VideoGame/BioShock'': he eventually wanted to return to the surface with his new empire. At worst he would have subjugated the world with an army of jacked-up (if mentally unstable) super humans. At best, he would have put ADAM on the market and [[CrapsackWorld turned the surface into a copy of Rapture]]. Much like Booker saw a future where Columbia ended up destroying the surface, Elizabeth likely saw a future where Fontaine brought ADAM to the surface and caused a decline in society like what happened in Rapture]]. The parallels are even more obvious when you compare them to [[spoiler: the revelation that Daisy Fitzroy demonized and sacrificed herself to eventually bring Comstock's end]]: this was bigger than saving just the Little Sisters, [[spoiler: this was about saving the ''entire world'']].



** Because one ending of a game that came out 7 years ago is more important than the entirety of ''[=BioShock=] Infinite'' and its characters, apparently.
** It's even worse than that. Sally and the other Little Sisters are more important than everyone alive in Rapture (who were not all terrible people, mind you) and everyone on the plane that Jack hijacked. The problem is that the fate of Rapture is a horrific tragedy, and saving the Little Sisters just a case of salvaging a little good out of the mess. Ep2, for all its good, tries to turn the original ''[=BioShock=]'' into a noble adventure. One might be able to argue that this was the only way the Little Sisters could be saved... but that's never implied in Ep1 or 2.

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** Because one ending of a game that came out 7 years ago is more important than the entirety of ''[=BioShock=] Infinite'' ''VideoGame/BioShockInfinite'' and its characters, apparently.
** It's even worse than that. Sally and the other Little Sisters are more important than everyone alive in Rapture (who were not all terrible people, mind you) and everyone on the plane that Jack hijacked. The problem is that the fate of Rapture is a horrific tragedy, and saving the Little Sisters just a case of salvaging a little good out of the mess. Ep2, for all its good, tries to turn the original ''[=BioShock=]'' ''VideoGame/BioShock'' into a noble adventure. One might be able to argue that this was the only way the Little Sisters could be saved... but that's never implied in Ep1 or 2.



* Burial at Sea Part 2 informs us that if a being like Elizabeth or the Luteces re-manifest a world in which they have already died, then they become mortal once again. This makes the scene of Songbird's death via transporting to Rapture make little to no sense, knowing what we do about the conclusion of Burial at Sea: There are multiple pieces of evidence that the Entrance Room where Elizabeth, Booker and Songbird arrive that they arrive there AFTER New Years Eve of 1958: The disarray surrounding the two suggesting sustained rebellion against Ryan, the dead Big Daddy across the way with a Little Sister sobbing over it (The pair-bond issue that had been plaguing Suchong was only fixed around the time of his death, roughly January 14th 1959, and is demonstrated pretty fully from these two), and the death cry of Songbird being allegedly heard in ''VideoGame/BioShock1'' just before Cohen's student Fitzpatrick is killed (This is circumstantial since I am told the sound is heard at other points in the game, and while I am yet to confirm those instances, I can't disprove the idea it's merely coincidence.) On New Year Eve of 1958, both Comstock and Elizabeth faced down a severely pissed off Big Daddy. Said Daddy went on to kill both of them. Elizabeth survives due to godlike power at this point, but gives all of it up to return to Rapture and save Sally. Her actions then go on to directly influence how Rapture develops. She is responsible for bringing Jack to Rapture. She is then killed a second, permanent time. This means that in any universe where the civil war in Rapture kicked off, there had to been an Elizabeth's death at the cause of it, especially if we go by Word of God telling us that ''Burial at Sea'' and ''[=BioShock=]'' take place in "Rapture Prime", making it the constant, rather than the variable. What does this all add up to? Elizabeth cannot re-manifest in Rapture at the time she seemingly does, because doing so would rob her of her powers and the climax of Infinite would no longer be able to happen. Now, I am aware that after a point the ending stops taking place in what we could conceive as "reality", but it was not at this point, as there had to be SOMETHING that killed Songbird not wrapped up in metaphor and poetry. New facts added in Burial at Sea made this fairly poignant scene make little to no sense.

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* Burial at Sea Part 2 informs us that if a being like Elizabeth or the Luteces re-manifest a world in which they have already died, then they become mortal once again. This makes the scene of Songbird's death via transporting to Rapture make little to no sense, knowing what we do about the conclusion of Burial at Sea: There are multiple pieces of evidence that the Entrance Room where Elizabeth, Booker and Songbird arrive that they arrive there AFTER New Years Eve of 1958: The disarray surrounding the two suggesting sustained rebellion against Ryan, the dead Big Daddy across the way with a Little Sister sobbing over it (The pair-bond issue that had been plaguing Suchong was only fixed around the time of his death, roughly January 14th 1959, and is demonstrated pretty fully from these two), and the death cry of Songbird being allegedly heard in ''VideoGame/BioShock1'' ''VideoGame/BioShock'' just before Cohen's student Fitzpatrick is killed (This is circumstantial since I am told the sound is heard at other points in the game, and while I am yet to confirm those instances, I can't disprove the idea it's merely coincidence.) On New Year Eve of 1958, both Comstock and Elizabeth faced down a severely pissed off Big Daddy. Said Daddy went on to kill both of them. Elizabeth survives due to godlike power at this point, but gives all of it up to return to Rapture and save Sally. Her actions then go on to directly influence how Rapture develops. She is responsible for bringing Jack to Rapture. She is then killed a second, permanent time. This means that in any universe where the civil war in Rapture kicked off, there had to been an Elizabeth's death at the cause of it, especially if we go by Word of God telling us that ''Burial at Sea'' and ''[=BioShock=]'' ''VideoGame/BioShock'' take place in "Rapture Prime", making it the constant, rather than the variable. What does this all add up to? Elizabeth cannot re-manifest in Rapture at the time she seemingly does, because doing so would rob her of her powers and the climax of Infinite would no longer be able to happen. Now, I am aware that after a point the ending stops taking place in what we could conceive as "reality", but it was not at this point, as there had to be SOMETHING that killed Songbird not wrapped up in metaphor and poetry. New facts added in Burial at Sea made this fairly poignant scene make little to no sense.
17th Sep '17 6:34:16 AM brolaf
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*** Except that 9/11 wouldn't happen in a timeline with Columbia due the lack of the Cold War.
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