History Headscratchers / BioShockInfinite

19th Apr '18 10:03:41 AM StFan
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** "Hero" of Wounded Knee -- war veterans are popular in politics. I will admit that I'm basically going on {{Homeland}} logic here, though.

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** "Hero" of Wounded Knee -- war veterans are popular in politics. I will admit that I'm basically going on {{Homeland}} ''Series/{{Homeland}}'' logic here, though.
11th Mar '18 2:16:37 PM nombretomado
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** In short, it seems like Elizabeth operates on the TimeLord rules. The above mentioned constants are also mentioned by [[Series/DoctorWho The Doctor]], and seem to exist purely to invoke YouCannotFightFate in a setting where protagonist would otherwise be able to fix everything, and thus make the story touching even if it doesn't exactly make complete logical sense -- in short, they're a physical principle based on RuleOfDrama, which, of course, makes perfect sense for an universe that is at least partly metafictional.

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** In short, it seems like Elizabeth operates on the TimeLord JustForFun/TimeLord rules. The above mentioned constants are also mentioned by [[Series/DoctorWho The Doctor]], and seem to exist purely to invoke YouCannotFightFate in a setting where protagonist would otherwise be able to fix everything, and thus make the story touching even if it doesn't exactly make complete logical sense -- in short, they're a physical principle based on RuleOfDrama, which, of course, makes perfect sense for an universe that is at least partly metafictional.
25th Feb '18 10:13:18 PM nombretomado
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** The reason Elizabeth has her powers is because she's a literal paradox, as far as Quantum Mechanics are concerned. Remember how the entire idea behind SchrodingersCat is that the point of the experiment was that it ''is'' in fact ridiculous to think a cat can be both alive and dead at the same time? As far as the universe is concerned, that's what Elizabeth is. You could either argue that the universe is trying to correct this paradox by giving her the powers, or coming into contact with the Lutece portal ridge when it chopped off her finger got some of that quantum energy into her blood stream. Either way, it has nothing to do with genetics. She's not a mutant, she wasn't born with the powers (though there probably is something to be said about her being Booker's daughter considering the mumbo jumbo with an alternate universe version of her father who never conceived her stole her away, but whatever). If you piece together enough of the Luteces' Voxophones talking about the subject, they basically spell it out for you, as much as you can say that of the least... Bottom line, I think the justification that the Vigors work the way they do because proximity to Elizabeth/help from the Lutece's is kinda weak (especially the idea that it's thanks to the Lutece's doing. They're not RealityWarper s like Elizabeth, they just exist in every conceivable point across all of time and space simultaneously. That does not give them sudden access to manipulate matter on a molecular level.)

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** The reason Elizabeth has her powers is because she's a literal paradox, as far as Quantum Mechanics are concerned. Remember how the entire idea behind SchrodingersCat UsefulNotes/SchrodingersCat is that the point of the experiment was that it ''is'' in fact ridiculous to think a cat can be both alive and dead at the same time? As far as the universe is concerned, that's what Elizabeth is. You could either argue that the universe is trying to correct this paradox by giving her the powers, or coming into contact with the Lutece portal ridge when it chopped off her finger got some of that quantum energy into her blood stream. Either way, it has nothing to do with genetics. She's not a mutant, she wasn't born with the powers (though there probably is something to be said about her being Booker's daughter considering the mumbo jumbo with an alternate universe version of her father who never conceived her stole her away, but whatever). If you piece together enough of the Luteces' Voxophones talking about the subject, they basically spell it out for you, as much as you can say that of the least... Bottom line, I think the justification that the Vigors work the way they do because proximity to Elizabeth/help from the Lutece's is kinda weak (especially the idea that it's thanks to the Lutece's doing. They're not RealityWarper s like Elizabeth, they just exist in every conceivable point across all of time and space simultaneously. That does not give them sudden access to manipulate matter on a molecular level.)
20th Nov '17 5:04:56 PM Termin8r
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[[folder:Elizabeth's Original Powers (Beta)]]
* Back during early game-play trailers in 2010, Elizabeth's powers didn't seem to involve the use of tears at all; she could generate storms, use telekinesis, and could fuse and combine objects into molten constructs. A lot of people have described those powers as either quantum physics or magic. Which is it?
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[[folder:Elizabeth's Original Powers (Beta)]]
* Back during early game-play trailers in 2010, Elizabeth's powers didn't seem to involve the use of tears at all and looked more like magic. She could generate storms, use telekinesis, and could fuse and combine objects into molten constructs. In fact, one trailer actually featured a scene were Elizabeth was about to get hung, similar to the Salem Witch Trails.
[[/folder]]
20th Nov '17 5:02:39 PM Termin8r
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* Back during early gameplay trailers in 2010, Elizabeth's powers didn't seem to involve the use of tears and looked more like magic. She could generate storms, use telekinesis, and could fuse and combine objects into molten constructs. In fact, one trailer actually featured a scene were Elizabeth was about to get hung, similar to the Salem Witch Trails.

to:

* Back during early gameplay trailers in 2010, Elizabeth's powers didn't seem to involve the use of tears and looked more like magic. She could generate storms, use telekinesis, and could fuse and combine objects into molten constructs. In fact, one trailer actually featured a scene were Elizabeth was about to get hung, similar to the Salem Witch Trails.


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[[folder:Elizabeth's Original Powers (Beta)]]
* Back during early game-play trailers in 2010, Elizabeth's powers didn't seem to involve the use of tears at all and looked more like magic. She could generate storms, use telekinesis, and could fuse and combine objects into molten constructs. In fact, one trailer actually featured a scene were Elizabeth was about to get hung, similar to the Salem Witch Trails.
[[/folder]]
20th Nov '17 5:01:18 PM Termin8r
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to:

* Back during early gameplay trailers in 2010, Elizabeth's powers didn't seem to involve the use of tears and looked more like magic. She could generate storms, use telekinesis, and could fuse and combine objects into molten constructs. In fact, one trailer actually featured a scene were Elizabeth was about to get hung, similar to the Salem Witch Trails.
4th Nov '17 9:37:23 AM Malady
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** Certainly didn't look like it; it seemed to be as retro as it has ever been. By the 1980s, it should've been a genuine DeathStar to bring the world down on its knees (to tie into the Jedi references). Rapture at least had the potential of its biotechnology wreaking havoc on the world and as such was a credible threat that shouldn't be allowed to resurface...

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** Certainly didn't look like it; it seemed to be as retro as it has ever been. By the 1980s, it should've been a genuine DeathStar KillSat to bring the world down on its knees (to tie into the Jedi references). Rapture at least had the potential of its biotechnology wreaking havoc on the world and as such was a credible threat that shouldn't be allowed to resurface...
29th Oct '17 7:23:45 PM Malady
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** Also, the lobotomy was a threat, not actually performed?
25th Oct '17 5:27:19 AM Tableleg0
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** As much as Columbia may have advanced, imagine how much the united states has advanced, you have to remember that the Twins are still out there, and as much as they would prefer to alter events through Booker they would eventually give some of Columbia's tech, possibly including tear technology, to the united states. Even if they hadn't, eventually an american spy would have gotten into Columbia and stolen there technology, or a fleeing member of the Vox Populi would have brought some with him/her. At this point Columbia is probably outclassed by 1980s tech and use of Vigor and tears. Its likely that the Columbia we see in that clip isn't a victorious Columbia, or even a Columbia that has just made itself known. Its very likely a Columbia frantically trying to take at least one city with it before its ripped from the sky.
24th Sep '17 9:35:52 AM AgentSDWhite
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* Burial at Sea Part 2 informs us that if a being like Elizabeth or the Luteces re-manifest a world in which they have already died, then they become mortal once again. This makes the scene of Songbird's death via transporting to Rapture make little to no sense, knowing what we do about the conclusion of Burial at Sea: There are multiple pieces of evidence that the Entrance Room where Elizabeth, Booker and Songbird arrive that they arrive there AFTER New Years Eve of 1958: The disarray surrounding the two suggesting sustained rebellion against Ryan, the dead Big Daddy across the way with a Little Sister sobbing over it (The pair-bond issue that had been plaguing Suchong was only fixed around the time of his death, roughly January 14th 1959, and is demonstrated pretty fully from these two), and the death cry of Songbird being allegedly heard in ''VideoGame/BioShock'' just before Cohen's student Fitzpatrick is killed (This is circumstantial since I am told the sound is heard at other points in the game, and while I am yet to confirm those instances, I can't disprove the idea it's merely coincidence.) On New Year Eve of 1958, both Comstock and Elizabeth faced down a severely pissed off Big Daddy. Said Daddy went on to kill both of them. Elizabeth survives due to godlike power at this point, but gives all of it up to return to Rapture and save Sally. Her actions then go on to directly influence how Rapture develops. She is responsible for bringing Jack to Rapture. She is then killed a second, permanent time. This means that in any universe where the civil war in Rapture kicked off, there had to been an Elizabeth's death at the cause of it, especially if we go by Word of God telling us that ''Burial at Sea'' and ''VideoGame/BioShock'' take place in "Rapture Prime", making it the constant, rather than the variable. What does this all add up to? Elizabeth cannot re-manifest in Rapture at the time she seemingly does, because doing so would rob her of her powers and the climax of Infinite would no longer be able to happen. Now, I am aware that after a point the ending stops taking place in what we could conceive as "reality", but it was not at this point, as there had to be SOMETHING that killed Songbird not wrapped up in metaphor and poetry. New facts added in Burial at Sea made this fairly poignant scene make little to no sense.

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* Burial at Sea Part 2 informs us that if a being like Elizabeth or the Luteces re-manifest a world in which they have already died, then they become mortal once again. This makes the scene of Songbird's death via transporting (via teleporting to Rapture Rapture) make little to no sense, knowing what we do about the conclusion of Burial at Sea: There are multiple pieces of evidence that the Entrance Room where Elizabeth, Booker and Songbird arrive that they arrive there AFTER New Years Eve of 1958: The disarray surrounding the two suggesting sustained rebellion against Ryan, the dead Big Daddy across the way with a Little Sister sobbing over it (The pair-bond issue that had been plaguing Suchong was only fixed around the time of his death, roughly January 14th 1959, and is demonstrated pretty fully from these two), and the death cry of Songbird being allegedly heard in ''VideoGame/BioShock'' just before Cohen's student Fitzpatrick is killed (This is circumstantial since I am told the sound is heard at other points in the game, and while I am yet to confirm those instances, I can't disprove the idea it's merely coincidence.) On New Year Eve of 1958, both Comstock and Elizabeth faced down a severely pissed off Big Daddy. Said Daddy went on to kill both of them. Elizabeth survives due to godlike power at this point, but gives all of it up to return to Rapture and save Sally. Her actions then go on to directly influence how Rapture develops. She is responsible for bringing Jack to Rapture. She is then killed a second, permanent time. This means that in any universe where the civil war in Rapture kicked off, there had to been an Elizabeth's death at the cause of it, especially if we go by Word of God telling us that ''Burial at Sea'' and ''VideoGame/BioShock'' take place in "Rapture Prime", making it the constant, rather than the variable. What does this all add up to? Elizabeth cannot re-manifest in Rapture at the time she seemingly does, because doing so would rob her of her powers and the climax of Infinite would no longer be able to happen. Now, I am aware that after a point the ending stops taking place in what we could conceive as "reality", but it was not at this point, as there had to be SOMETHING that killed Songbird not wrapped up in metaphor and poetry. New facts added in Burial at Sea made this fairly poignant scene make little to no sense.


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*** It may have been the third time that Elizabeth visited Rapture, but it doesn't change that she had already died in Rapture by the time she arrives there with Booker and Songbird. She even says during the game that they drowned Songbird in 1960, a year after Atlas killed her. It already happened to Elizabeth, but it hasn't happened to Rapture yet. Likewise, when she, Booker and Songbird teleport there in 1960, Elizabeth has already died in Rapture, but it hasn't happened to her yet. That doesn't change the rules that the Luteces explain to her, and it doesn't change that these rules make the ending of Infinite completely unable to happen.
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