History Headscratchers / AvengersVsXMen

12th Sep '17 7:17:07 AM tafelshrew
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**** The same way the Avengers (and superheroes in general) deter crime, in other words. It's really ''really'' hard to make that argument in a genre founded on people using their superior powers or skills to enforce morality.
17th Jun '17 1:31:00 AM lillolillo
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** The only reason he was allowed to walk free on Utopia was effectively because Cyclops was vouching for him. Someone saying "Sure, I'll make sure he behaves himself." rings hollow when [[spoiler:the person saying it nearly destroys the planet]].

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** The only reason he was allowed to walk free on Utopia was effectively because Cyclops Comicbook/{{Cyclops}} was vouching for him. Someone saying "Sure, I'll make sure he behaves himself." rings hollow when [[spoiler:the person saying it nearly destroys the planet]].



* Isn't the whole premise of the conflict suspect? The Avengers are presuming that the approaching Phoenix Force will take over Hope, and there's a good chance that she'll end up killing billions, just as Dark Phoenix did. If all else fails, at least Wolverine is willing to kill Hope to prevent this. Now, there are a couple of flaws in this thinking: 1) The Dark Phoenix did not take over Jean Grey, but mimicked her body and mind. The real Jean Grey was at this point badly hurt by radiation, and placed in a healing coma. Trying to kill Hope might make the situation worse, as now the Phoenix Force would encounter a near-death/recently deceased Hope instead of a living and healthy one, and might again try to mimic her form. 2) Rachel Summers was possessed by the Phoenix Force for some time. She did not turn into an insane mass murderer. Quite the opposite, as she battled Galactus to keep him from devouring a life-bearing world.

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* Isn't the whole premise of the conflict suspect? The Avengers are presuming that the approaching Phoenix Force will take over Hope, and there's a good chance that she'll end up killing billions, just as Dark Phoenix did. If all else fails, at least Wolverine is willing to kill Hope to prevent this. Now, there are a couple of flaws in this thinking: 1) The Dark Phoenix did not take over Jean Grey, Comicbook/JeanGrey, but mimicked her body and mind. The real Jean Grey was at this point badly hurt by radiation, and placed in a healing coma. Trying to kill Hope might make the situation worse, as now the Phoenix Force would encounter a near-death/recently deceased Hope instead of a living and healthy one, and might again try to mimic her form. 2) Rachel Summers Comicbook/RachelSummers was possessed by the Phoenix Force for some time. She did not turn into an insane mass murderer. Quite the opposite, as she battled Galactus to keep him from devouring a life-bearing world.



** The idea that the Dark Phoenix mimicked Jean Grey's body and mind was a convoluted retcon used to bring the "real" Jean back, and it seems writers these days tend to treat it with BroadStrokes. Unlike Jean's resurrection, the original Dark Phoenix Saga is one of the best-known superhero comics of all time, and the idea that Jean was human who was corrupted by omnipotency makes much more sense than a omnipotent being imitating a human and being corrupted by its own omnipotency, so that storyline tends to get ignored nowadays. As for Rachel, she was an adult who had learned to control herself the hard way, having grown up in the dystopian "The Days of Future Past", so arguably her being able to handle the Phoenix doesn't mean Hope could do the same. I think this issue us even brought up briefly, where Logan or someone else in the Avengers team says Rachel is "tough"; apparently the writers realized Rachel's past control of the Phoenix was a potential plot hole, so they needed to HandWave it. Really, though, the whole problem rises from the fact that Marvel writers have been pretty inconsistent in explaining what the Phoenix force is and what it does. Sometimes it's threated as a benevolent life force, sometimes as a life-consuming threat, so potential plot holes like these are bound to come up.

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** The idea that the Dark Phoenix mimicked Jean Grey's body and mind was a convoluted retcon used to bring the "real" Jean back, and it seems writers these days tend to treat it with BroadStrokes. Unlike Jean's resurrection, the original Dark Phoenix Saga ''Comicbook/TheDarkPhoenixSaga'' is one of the best-known superhero comics of all time, and the idea that Jean was human who was corrupted by omnipotency makes much more sense than a omnipotent being imitating a human and being corrupted by its own omnipotency, so that storyline tends to get ignored nowadays. As for Rachel, she was an adult who had learned to control herself the hard way, having grown up in the dystopian "The Days of Future Past", so arguably her being able to handle the Phoenix doesn't mean Hope could do the same. I think this issue us even brought up briefly, where Logan or someone else in the Avengers team says Rachel is "tough"; apparently the writers realized Rachel's past control of the Phoenix was a potential plot hole, so they needed to HandWave it. Really, though, the whole problem rises from the fact that Marvel writers have been pretty inconsistent in explaining what the Phoenix force is and what it does. Sometimes it's threated as a benevolent life force, sometimes as a life-consuming threat, so potential plot holes like these are bound to come up.
6th Apr '17 11:29:28 PM Ymirsdaughter
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* Why didn't Hope revive Xavier? She had the Phoenix, she was in complete control, and the man was lying right there. The Phoenix has been shown to be powerful enough to revive the dead before: primarily Jean, but also Emma and Sophie. Why draw the line at Xavier?
12th Dec '16 2:23:31 PM Forenperser
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*** Really? I for one (if I were one of those bigotted people) would be ''relieved'' rather than concerned. Their first priority isn't just their own survival anymore, they use their god-given powers to enrich the world as a whole, including the humans, who have not treated them very wel until now.
13th Oct '16 10:39:04 AM DaScarecrow
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*** The Avengers were concerned that while the Phoenix Five may have been acting benevolently ''at the moment'' they could have lost control and gone Dark Phoenix at any point. Granted continued antagonism likely made that a certainty rather than just a probable conclusion.
*** It should be noted that the X-Men were fighting so fiercely in the first place because they believed the Phoenix Force would restore mutantkind but the Phoenix Five do absolutely nothing towards that end. Getting that kind of power and not using it for the purpose you've been zealously fighting for is more than likely to make people nervous than welcoming.
15th May '16 9:29:34 AM nombretomado
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* In the final issue of Avengers vs. X-Men we see the faces of [[spoiler:Emma Frost, [[ComicBook/SubMariner Namor]], and {{Magneto}}]] plastered on wanted posters. The first two make sense, given their contact with the Phoenix and their subsequent actions, but [[spoiler:Magneto]] behaved fairly heroically during this series. Sure he tangled with the Avengers, but what X-Man didn't? I assume they want him [[DesignatedVillain firmly in familiar villain territory]] for Marvel NOW, but given his placement next to the others, it rendered the panel distracting.

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* In the final issue of Avengers vs. X-Men we see the faces of [[spoiler:Emma Frost, [[ComicBook/SubMariner Namor]], and {{Magneto}}]] ComicBook/{{Magneto}}]] plastered on wanted posters. The first two make sense, given their contact with the Phoenix and their subsequent actions, but [[spoiler:Magneto]] behaved fairly heroically during this series. Sure he tangled with the Avengers, but what X-Man didn't? I assume they want him [[DesignatedVillain firmly in familiar villain territory]] for Marvel NOW, but given his placement next to the others, it rendered the panel distracting.
12th Apr '16 6:41:07 AM jm0914
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*** Because that's part of its job. For some reason the Phoenix overlaps with Galactus in some duties. The difference is that Galactus consumes worlds in order to date his hunger and because his being alive serves as the key to the prison for an even worse threat. The Phoenix, meanwhile, only destroys worlds that have reached the end of their lifespan or an evolutionary dead-end to clear space for new ones.

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*** Because that's part of its job. For some reason the Phoenix overlaps with Galactus in some duties. The difference is that Galactus consumes worlds in order to date sate his hunger and because his being alive serves as the key to the prison for an even worse threat. The Phoenix, meanwhile, only destroys worlds that have reached the end of their lifespan or an evolutionary dead-end to clear space for new ones.
12th Apr '16 6:40:05 AM jm0914
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***Because that's part of its job. For some reason the Phoenix overlaps with Galactus in some duties. The difference is that Galactus consumes worlds in order to date his hunger and because his being alive serves as the key to the prison for an even worse threat. The Phoenix, meanwhile, only destroys worlds that have reached the end of their lifespan or an evolutionary dead-end to clear space for new ones.
24th Jan '16 10:41:12 AM nombretomado
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* In the final issue of Avengers vs. X-Men we see the faces of [[spoiler:Emma Frost, {{Namor}}, and {{Magneto}}]] plastered on wanted posters. The first two make sense, given their contact with the Phoenix and their subsequent actions, but [[spoiler:Magneto]] behaved fairly heroically during this series. Sure he tangled with the Avengers, but what X-Man didn't? I assume they want him [[DesignatedVillain firmly in familiar villain territory]] for Marvel NOW, but given his placement next to the others, it rendered the panel distracting.

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* In the final issue of Avengers vs. X-Men we see the faces of [[spoiler:Emma Frost, {{Namor}}, [[ComicBook/SubMariner Namor]], and {{Magneto}}]] plastered on wanted posters. The first two make sense, given their contact with the Phoenix and their subsequent actions, but [[spoiler:Magneto]] behaved fairly heroically during this series. Sure he tangled with the Avengers, but what X-Man didn't? I assume they want him [[DesignatedVillain firmly in familiar villain territory]] for Marvel NOW, but given his placement next to the others, it rendered the panel distracting.
28th Jun '15 4:52:26 PM Ymirsdaughter
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** See ComicBook/TheChildrensCrusade. When Wanda changed all reality and depowered mutants, she was tapping on a special power which is now lost for her. She's not as insanely powerful as she was back then, but she's still incredibly powerful as she was before all those things. She's not a reality warper anymore, she's "just" a witch with mutant powers and knowledge of the arcane arts, who can even manipulate the magic of Chton (which is much indeed: in ''ComicBook/HeroesReturn'', without reality warping powers herself, she single-handedly defeated the reality warper Morgan Le Fey at the peak of her power). And yes, "it was said" that the powers of the Scarlet Witch and the Phoenix were like a Yin and a Yang... but who said it? An expert, like Iron First? No, Tony Stark, a scientist who had always dismissed those things, until science was not enough and had to seek solutions somewhere else. In other words: an amateur.

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** See ComicBook/TheChildrensCrusade. When Wanda changed all reality and depowered mutants, she was tapping on a special power which is now lost for her. She's not as insanely powerful as she was back then, but she's still incredibly powerful as she was before all those things. She's not a reality warper anymore, she's "just" a witch with mutant powers and knowledge of the arcane arts, who can even manipulate the magic of Chton (which is much indeed: in ''ComicBook/HeroesReturn'', without reality warping powers herself, she single-handedly defeated the reality warper Morgan Le Fey at the peak of her power). And yes, "it was said" that the powers of the Scarlet Witch and the Phoenix were like a Yin and a Yang... but who said it? An expert, like Iron First? No, Tony Stark, a scientist who had always dismissed those things, until science was not enough and had to seek solutions somewhere else. In other words: an amateur. amateur.
** He may just have meant that Wanda deactivated the mutant gene, while the Phoenix reactivated it.
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