History Headscratchers / AvengersVsXMen

** The idea that the Dark Phoenix mimicked Jean Grey's body and mind was a convoluted retcon used to bring the "real" Jean back, and it seems writers these days tend to treat it with BroadStrokes. Unlike Jean's resurrection, the original ''Comicbook/TheDarkPhoenixSaga'' is one of the best-known superhero comics of all time, and the idea that Jean was human who was corrupted by omnipotence makes much more sense than a omnipotent being imitating a human and being corrupted by its own omnipotence (or, as the Phoenix suggested in ''{{ComicBook/Excalibur}}'', by the intoxicating nature of human life and emotions), so that aspect tends to get ignored nowadays. As for Rachel, she was an adult who had learned to control herself the hard way, having grown up in the dystopian "The Days of Future Past", so arguably her being able to handle the Phoenix doesn't mean Hope could do the same. I think this issue us even brought up briefly, where Logan or someone else in the Avengers team says Rachel is "tough"; apparently the writers realized Rachel's past control of the Phoenix was a potential plot hole, so they needed to HandWave it. Really, though, the whole problem rises from the fact that Marvel writers have been pretty inconsistent in explaining what the Phoenix force is and what it does. Sometimes it's treated as a benevolent life force, sometimes as a life-consuming threat, so potential plot holes like these are bound to come up.

** Frankly, what the Phoenix is tends to vary widely by stories to the point where X-fans have trouble keeping up with it. In some it is a powerful alien entity, in others it has some sort of connection to life and evolution, and in others it is basically God. It also does not attend the meetings of other cosmic entities like Eternity, Death and Galactus. Heck, Galactus wasn't sure what it was when he met it and he talks regularly with Death and Eternity. In many ways it was almost unique to the X-Men's corner of the universe. Considering most of the Avengers involved are not experts in the fundamental forces of the universe or at best have heard of Eternity and the others they probable thought it was just a really powerful alien entity, that it could not be fully killed only banished, or that another cosmic entity would fulfil its role. Afterall, Eternity embodies life, Mistress Death embodies death, the Celestials oversee evolution, and these entities balance each other. In many ways the Phoenix is redundant.

** See ComicBook/TheChildrensCrusade. When Wanda changed all reality and depowered mutants, she was tapping on a special power which is now lost for her. She's not as insanely powerful as she was back then, but she's still incredibly powerful as she was before all those things. She's not a reality warper anymore, she's "just" a witch with mutant powers and knowledge of the arcane arts, who can even manipulate the magic of Chton (which is much indeed: in ''ComicBook/HeroesReturn'', without reality warping powers herself, she single-handedly defeated the reality warper Morgan Le Fey at the peak of her power). And yes, "it was said" that the powers of the Scarlet Witch and the Phoenix were like a Yin and a Yang... but who said it? An expert, like Iron First? No, Tony Stark, a scientist who had always dismissed those things, until science was not enough and had to seek solutions somewhere else. In other words: an amateur.

*** Really? I for one (if I were one of those bigotted people) would be ''relieved'' rather than concerned. Their first priority isn't just their own survival anymore, they use their god-given powers to enrich the world as a whole, including the humans, who have not treated them very wel until now.

* Isn't the whole premise of the conflict suspect? The Avengers are presuming that the approaching Phoenix Force will take over Hope, and there's a good chance that she'll end up killing billions, just as Dark Phoenix did. If all else fails, at least Wolverine is willing to kill Hope to prevent this. Now, there are a couple of flaws in this thinking: 1) The Dark Phoenix did not take over Comicbook/JeanGrey, but mimicked her body and mind. The real Jean Grey was at this point badly hurt by radiation, and placed in a healing coma. Trying to kill Hope might make the situation worse, as now the Phoenix Force would encounter a near-death/recently deceased Hope instead of a living and healthy one, and might again try to mimic her form. 2) Comicbook/RachelSummers was possessed by the Phoenix Force for some time. She did not turn into an insane mass murderer. Quite the opposite, as she sacrificed her life to stop the "Anti-Phoenix" Necrom and place in the timestream for Brian Braddock.
** The Avengers aproach to the whole deal might be to blame on the advice given by their mutant "consultant" Wolverine. Him living in an school named after the dead wife of the guy they want to talk to, a school he founded, should have been a big flag that his opinions may have been biased on this issue. And we all know what happens when that guy has even so much as "mixed feelings" towards someone.
** The idea that the Dark Phoenix mimicked Jean Grey's body and mind was a convoluted retcon used to bring the "real" Jean back, and it seems writers these days tend to treat it with BroadStrokes. Unlike Jean's resurrection, the original ''Comicbook/TheDarkPhoenixSaga'' is one of the best-known superhero comics of all time, and the idea that Jean was human who was corrupted by omnipotency makes much more sense than a omnipotent being imitating a human and being corrupted by its own omnipotency, so that storyline tends to get ignored nowadays. As for Rachel, she was an adult who had learned to control herself the hard way, having grown up in the dystopian "The Days of Future Past", so arguably her being able to handle the Phoenix doesn't mean Hope could do the same. I think this issue us even brought up briefly, where Logan or someone else in the Avengers team says Rachel is "tough"; apparently the writers realized Rachel's past control of the Phoenix was a potential plot hole, so they needed to HandWave it. Really, though, the whole problem rises from the fact that Marvel writers have been pretty inconsistent in explaining what the Phoenix force is and what it does. Sometimes it's threated as a benevolent life force, sometimes as a life-consuming threat, so potential plot holes like these are bound to come up.
** Also, ''nobody'', except perhaps [[Comicbook/{{Excalibur}} Feron]] had ''ever'' managed to use even a piece of the Phoenix Force without succumbing to insanity or proving unusually susceptible to mind control. Even Rachel Summers fell under the influence of characters like Selene, Spiral, Modred the Mystic and Mastermind at various points in her career, despite her psionic prowess. In fact it has been speculated that being the host of the Phoenix Force in some way diminished her mental defenses! Hope, especially at her age, could potentially become just another cosmic football for assorted psychic and[=/=]or mystic entities looking for a pawn possessed of effectively limitless power.

** Frankly, what the Phoenix is tends to vary widely by stories to the point where X-fans have trouble keeping up with it. In some it is a powerful alien entity, in others it has some sort of connection to life and evolution, and in others it is basically God. It also does not attend the meetings of other cosmic entities like Eternity, Death and Galactus. Heck, Galactus wasn't sure what it was when he met it and he talks regularly with Death and Eternity. In many ways it was almost unique to the X-Men's corner of the universe. Considering most of the Avengers involved are not experts in the fundamental forces of the universe or at best have heard of Eternity and the others they probable thought it was just a really powerful alien entity, that it could not be fully killed only banished, or that another cosmic entity would fulfill its role. Afterall, Eternity embodies life, Mistress Death embodies death, the Celestials oversee evolution, and these entities balance each other. In many ways the Phoenix is redundant.

* There have been dozens of "Well-meaning person gets Godlike Powers and tries to remake the World into Utopia, whether the World likes it or not" storylines in the history of Marvel universe. It has always ended poorly. Every. Single. Damn. TIME. Yet we're supposed to believe that any sane resident of Earth-616 should be expected to give the Phoenix Five a chance because this time _might_ be different? And the Avengers are "Just as Much To Blame!" for the conflict, because they DIDN'T? That's about as plausible as suggesting that the masked gunman who just burst into the bank maybe wants to open a bank account, and the security guard is unreasonable for assuming otherwise.

*** False equivalency. The Phoenix 5 helped the world and even the Avengers themselves in defeating supervillains, despite the previous battle. All the supposed 'justified mistrust' comes AFTER the Avengers once again attacked them without provocation, thus turning it into a SelfFulfillingProphecy. The Phoenix HAS, in canon, been wielded in a non-world-threatening manner, as Rachel Grey can attest. Hell, the mere fact that just after this very event, the Avengers are willing to take Captain Universe, a cosmic entity of very comparable power to the Phoenix, into their ranks shows what a bunch of hypocrites they were here. I think Reed Richards put it best in the Avngers tie-in of the event: They weren't worried of the P5 losing control, they were worried of becoming irrelevant themselves.
*** "they were worried of becoming irrelevant themselves." As have said sooooo many villains/misguided heroes in the past, to both the Avengers AND the X-Men. So the analogy is actually worse: Under the mask, the hurried gunman who wants to open an account is ALSO a security guard, yet he insists the other guard was wrong for "jumping to conclusions".

* There have been dozens of "Well-meaning person gets Godlike Powers and tries to remake the World into Utopia, whether the World likes it or not" storylines in the history of Marvel universe. It has always ended poorly. Every. Single. Damn. TIME. Yet we're supposed to believe that any sane resident of Earth-616 should be expected to give the Phoenix Five a chance because this time _might_ be different? And the Avengers are "Just as Much To Blame!" for the conflict, because they DIDN'T? That's about as plausible as suggesting that the masked gunman who just burst into the bank maybe wants to hand out yummy candy, and the security guard is unreasonable for assuming otherwise.

* There have been dozens of "Well-meaning person gets Godlike Powers and tries to remake the World into Utopia, whether the World likes it or not" in the history of Earth-616. It has always ended poorly. Every. Single. Damn. TIME. Yet we're supposed to believe that any sane resident of Earth-616 should be expected to give the Phoenix Five a chance because this time _might_ be different? And the Avengers are "Just as Much To Blame!" for the conflict, because they DIDN'T? That's about as plausible as suggesting that the masked gunman who just burst into the bank maybe wants to hand out yummy candy, and the security guard is unreasonable for assuming otherwise.

** The last time that the phoenix was present on the earth and worked with the X-Men in [[New X-Men]], it grew naturally within its proper designated host, [[Jean Grey]], and never went mad. The entire problem was the Avengers fault, because they cherry-picked their sources (ie. only took into consideration the Dark Phoenix storyline), forced the Phoenix into hosts that had never been intended to host it (ie. the Phoenix Five), and never ever considered the fact that there were previous hosts that had hosted the Phoenix Force without giving way to sanity slippage ([[Rachel Summers]]).

* Isn't the whole premise of the conflict suspect? The Avengers are presuming that the approaching Phoenix Force will take over Hope, and there's a good chance that she'll end up killing billions, just as Dark Phoenix did. If all else fails, at least Wolverine is willing to kill Hope to prevent this. Now, there are a couple of flaws in this thinking: 1) The Dark Phoenix did not take over Comicbook/JeanGrey, but mimicked her body and mind. The real Jean Grey was at this point badly hurt by radiation, and placed in a healing coma. Trying to kill Hope might make the situation worse, as now the Phoenix Force would encounter a near-death/recently deceased Hope instead of a living and healthy one, and might again try to mimic her form. 2) Comicbook/RachelSummers was possessed by the Phoenix Force for some time. She did not turn into an insane mass murderer. Quite the opposite, as she battled Galactus to keep him from devouring a life-bearing world.

** The only reason he was allowed to walk free on Utopia was effectively because Cyclops was vouching for him. Someone saying "Sure, I'll make sure he behaves himself." rings hollow when [[spoiler:the person saying it nearly destroys the planet]].

* Isn't the whole premise of the conflict suspect? The Avengers are presuming that the approaching Phoenix Force will take over Hope, and there's a good chance that she'll end up killing billions, just as Dark Phoenix did. If all else fails, at least Wolverine is willing to kill Hope to prevent this. Now, there are a couple of flaws in this thinking: 1) The Dark Phoenix did not take over Jean Grey, but mimicked her body and mind. The real Jean Grey was at this point badly hurt by radiation, and placed in a healing coma. Trying to kill Hope might make the situation worse, as now the Phoenix Force would encounter a near-death/recently deceased Hope instead of a living and healthy one, and might again try to mimic her form. 2) Rachel Summers was possessed by the Phoenix Force for some time. She did not turn into an insane mass murderer. Quite the opposite, as she battled Galactus to keep him from devouring a life-bearing world.

** The idea that the Dark Phoenix mimicked Jean Grey's body and mind was a convoluted retcon used to bring the "real" Jean back, and it seems writers these days tend to treat it with BroadStrokes. Unlike Jean's resurrection, the original Dark Phoenix Saga is one of the best-known superhero comics of all time, and the idea that Jean was human who was corrupted by omnipotency makes much more sense than a omnipotent being imitating a human and being corrupted by its own omnipotency, so that storyline tends to get ignored nowadays. As for Rachel, she was an adult who had learned to control herself the hard way, having grown up in the dystopian "The Days of Future Past", so arguably her being able to handle the Phoenix doesn't mean Hope could do the same. I think this issue us even brought up briefly, where Logan or someone else in the Avengers team says Rachel is "tough"; apparently the writers realized Rachel's past control of the Phoenix was a potential plot hole, so they needed to HandWave it. Really, though, the whole problem rises from the fact that Marvel writers have been pretty inconsistent in explaining what the Phoenix force is and what it does. Sometimes it's threated as a benevolent life force, sometimes as a life-consuming threat, so potential plot holes like these are bound to come up.

* In the final issue of Avengers vs. X-Men we see the faces of [[spoiler:Emma Frost, [[ComicBook/SubMariner Namor]], and {{Magneto}}]] plastered on wanted posters. The first two make sense, given their contact with the Phoenix and their subsequent actions, but [[spoiler:Magneto]] behaved fairly heroically during this series. Sure he tangled with the Avengers, but what X-Man didn't? I assume they want him [[DesignatedVillain firmly in familiar villain territory]] for Marvel NOW, but given his placement next to the others, it rendered the panel distracting.

*** Because that's part of its job. For some reason the Phoenix overlaps with Galactus in some duties. The difference is that Galactus consumes worlds in order to date his hunger and because his being alive serves as the key to the prison for an even worse threat. The Phoenix, meanwhile, only destroys worlds that have reached the end of their lifespan or an evolutionary dead-end to clear space for new ones.

* In the final issue of Avengers vs. X-Men we see the faces of [[spoiler:Emma Frost, {{Namor}}, and {{Magneto}}]] plastered on wanted posters. The first two make sense, given their contact with the Phoenix and their subsequent actions, but [[spoiler:Magneto]] behaved fairly heroically during this series. Sure he tangled with the Avengers, but what X-Man didn't? I assume they want him [[DesignatedVillain firmly in familiar villain territory]] for Marvel NOW, but given his placement next to the others, it rendered the panel distracting.

** See ComicBook/TheChildrensCrusade. When Wanda changed all reality and depowered mutants, she was tapping on a special power which is now lost for her. She's not as insanely powerful as she was back then, but she's still incredibly powerful as she was before all those things. She's not a reality warper anymore, she's "just" a witch with mutant powers and knowledge of the arcane arts, who can even manipulate the magic of Chton (which is much indeed: in ''ComicBook/HeroesReturn'', without reality warping powers herself, she single-handedly defeated the reality warper Morgan Le Fey at the peak of her power). And yes, "it was said" that the powers of the Scarlet Witch and the Phoenix were like a Yin and a Yang... but who said it? An expert, like Iron First? No, Tony Stark, a scientist who had always dismissed those things, until science was not enough and had to seek solutions somewhere else. In other words: an amateur.

* Let's step back for a moment shall we? It was established early on that the approaching Phoenix was ''[[EarthShatteringKaboom destroying worlds]]'' on its way to Earth! Was it ''really'' irrational for the Avengers to regard it as a [[Comicbook/{{Galactus}} Galactus-level]] [[ApocalypseHow/{{ClassX}} threat to Earth]]? The X-Men were fully aware of the Phoenix [[ApocalypseHow/{{ClassX-2}} destroying an entire star system in the past]]! But now, just because most of the world's mutants have been BroughtDownToNormal, the X-Men are prepared to welcome it with open arms like some kind of ApocalypseCult. They are fully-prepared to risk the very existence of the Earth and the ''entire human race'' on the gamble that Hope will be able to control the Phoenix should she in fact become its vessel. Why ''wouldn't'' the Avengers (along with the rest of the human race) see this as an unacceptable risk, especially just to restore the powers of a group of people that are increasingly seen (and see themselves) as separate from [[FantasticRacism humanity]], and one of whose major representatives, Magneto, has openly-espoused [[MasterRace Hitler-like]] philosophy in the past?