History Fridge / OldKingdom

25th Aug '17 10:30:11 AM cpslck
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** No they mention rebinding him with the same wards. It might be that the wards have nothing to do with the Shiners anyway since 7 is already a powerfully magical number.
19th Sep '16 3:17:35 AM Yenklet
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** [[spoiler:Actually, Sam does have some talent for it, as he is capable of crossing into death, but he just wasn't meant to be the Abhorsen-in-waiting, and the book knows it]].
** [[spoiler: Having just re-read the series, Sam does indeed quite plainly have the raw talent to be an Abhorsen. It's his ''personality'' that is much less suited for the job, being more in line with his real gift, that of being a Wallmaker. I'd figure that if something had happened to Lirael he ''could'' have been an Abhorsen (though I doubt he'd be a particularly good one); with her there as a much better candidate to take over that side of the family business, however, the paraphernalia (Book, bells, etc.) naturally gravitates to her and Sam is left free to pursue his true destiny]].
** [[spoiler: Although, it's possible that when Sabriel dies and Lirael becomes the Abhorsen, Sam might become the next Abhorsen-In-Waiting, if Lirael doesn't have any children. Mogget stated that the previous Abhorsen, Terciel, trained under his aunt.]]
** [[spoiler: Alternately, given that the royal and Abhorsen lines are still tightly mingled, any of Sam's children could easily become Lirael's successor. We don't really know if Wallmaker is something that can be passed down, or if it's Just Sam, Because of Fate.]]

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** [[spoiler:Actually, [[spoiler:Worse still, Sam does have some talent for it, as he is capable of crossing has been trained to go into death, but he just wasn't meant Death (which, according to be the Abhorsen-in-waiting, Mogget, anyone can technically do) and the book knows it]].
** [[spoiler: Having just re-read the series, Sam does indeed quite plainly have the raw talent to be an Abhorsen. It's his ''personality'' that is much less suited
forced into it, despite being totally unsuited for the job, being more in line with his real gift, that of being a Wallmaker. I'd figure that if something had happened to Lirael he ''could'' have been an Abhorsen (though I doubt he'd be a particularly good one); with her there as a much better candidate to take over that side of the family business, however, the paraphernalia (Book, bells, etc.) naturally gravitates to her location and Sam is left free to pursue his true destiny]].
** [[spoiler: Although, it's possible that when Sabriel dies and Lirael becomes the Abhorsen, Sam might become the next Abhorsen-In-Waiting, if Lirael doesn't have any children. Mogget stated that the previous Abhorsen, Terciel, trained under his aunt.]]
** [[spoiler: Alternately, given that the royal and Abhorsen lines are still tightly mingled, any of Sam's children could easily become Lirael's successor. We don't really know if Wallmaker is something that can be passed down, or if it's Just Sam, Because of Fate.
vocation.]]



** Honestly, once the Clayr Saw what Kerrigor was up to, they probably just hunkered down in the Glacier, a fortress even he couldn't conquer until he'd already destroyed all else, and waited him out except on occasions they Saw something particular they needed to do (like sending Sanar and Ryelle to advise Sabriel and Touchstone).
** On the same general topic, it's explicitly noted that Kerrigor gathered all of the Old Kingdoms most powerful necromancers and Free magic sorcerers under his control (Hedge being a prime example of this)... except for Chlorr, who was also explicitly ''never'' a Servant of Kerrigor. Why? [[spoiler: She was an Abhorsen, presumably familiar enough with both Charter and Free magic to understand the general shape of Kerrigor's plan, and would have therefore wanted nothing to do with him because she knew full well that if he figured out who and what she was, he'd sacrifice ''her'' on one of the Great Stones. The fact that her usual outfit is in the same general vein as the oft-mentioned but never seen Northern barbarians, it also seems a pretty safe guess where she went to keep her head down during the years of Kerrigor's rise]].

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** Honestly, once the Clayr Saw what Kerrigor was up to, they probably just hunkered down in the Glacier, a fortress even he couldn't conquer until he'd already destroyed all else, and waited him out except on occasions they Saw something particular they needed to do (like sending Sanar and Ryelle to advise Sabriel and Touchstone).
Touchstone). Of course, it's also possible that the Clayr are simply more watered-down than the other bloodlines—in Clariel: The Lost Abhorsen, it's stated that one of the Royal bloodline holds much more strength than that of a single Clayr, and there are hundreds of people related to the Abhorsen scampering around, each with very little power indicating. The Clayr are just spread thin.
** On the same general topic, it's explicitly noted that Kerrigor gathered all of the Old Kingdoms most powerful necromancers and Free magic sorcerers under his control (Hedge being a prime example of this)... except for Chlorr, who was also explicitly ''never'' a Servant of Kerrigor. Why? [[spoiler: She was an Abhorsen, presumably familiar enough with both Charter and Free magic to understand the general shape of Kerrigor's plan, and would have therefore wanted nothing to do with him because she knew full well that if he figured out who and what she was, he'd sacrifice ''her'' on one of the Great Stones. The fact that her usual outfit is in the same general vein as the oft-mentioned but never seen Northern barbarians, it also seems a pretty safe guess where she went to keep her head down during the years of Kerrigor's rise]]. rise. It also fits with her personality, since Chlorr hated to be controlled by anyone—she would never want to submit to another necromancer, even one as strong as Kerrigor]].



** [[spoiler:And, possibly, on the Wall or on Charter Stones. Given that "Three and Five became stone and mortar", and Kibeth is the third bell...]]
*** No, he definitely remembers the marks from [[spoiler:the bell]] because that poem refers to the bloodlines: One in the people who wear the crown (Royals) Two in the folk who keep the dead down (the Abhorsen) Three and Five became stone and mortar (the Wallmakers, I guess there were two types) Four seems all in frozen water (the Clayr)



* In the first chapter of ''Sabriel'', the narration says that the sound of the First Gate gets louder as the messenger from Sabriel's father passes through it, but every other time something passes through the First Gate (including at least one other instance in ''Sabriel''), the narration says that the sound of the gate ceases. It may be a simple case of the author changing his mind and forgetting to go back and edit, but there's also one noticeable difference between that first instance and all the other times--the messenger from Sabriel's father was passing ''from'' the '''First''' Precinct ''into'' the '''Second''' Precinct. Every other time something passes through the First Gate, it's going from the ''Second'' Precinct into the ''First'' Precinct.
* Y'know, it seems like Astarael would be a GameBreaker level bell if you just wore earplugs. Yeah, yeah, I know, it's magic, surely that won't actually work, but it's kinda weird that they never actually addressed the idea. [[spoiler:Except they did, at the beginning of ''Abhorsen''. Sam suggests wearing earplugs to ward against the thing under the well -- which is much later revealed to be Astarael herself -- and Mogget shoots the idea down, citing that you'd hear her voice in your very bones.]]

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** On the same note, it makes sense that [[spoiler:Lirael stood for Astarael: Astarael was shut outside of the Charter that she had helped to create, just as Lirael was shut out of the Clayr that she had always wanted to be a part of.]]
* In the first chapter of ''Sabriel'', the narration says that the sound of the First Gate gets louder as the messenger from Sabriel's father passes through it, but every other time something passes through the First Gate (including at least one other instance in ''Sabriel''), the narration says that the sound of the gate ceases. It may be a simple case of the author changing his mind and forgetting to go back and edit, but there's also one noticeable difference between that first instance and all the other times--the messenger from Sabriel's father was passing ''from'' the '''First''' Precinct ''into'' the '''Second''' Precinct. Every other time something passes through the First Gate, it's going from the ''Second'' Precinct into the ''First'' Precinct.
* Y'know, it seems like Astarael would be a GameBreaker level bell if you just wore earplugs. Yeah, yeah, I know, it's magic, surely that won't actually work, but it's kinda weird that they never actually addressed the idea. [[spoiler:Except they did, at the beginning of ''Abhorsen''. Sam suggests wearing earplugs to ward against the thing under the well -- which is much later revealed to be Astarael herself -- and Mogget shoots the idea down, citing that you'd hear her voice in your very bones.]]
Precinct.
12th Jun '16 7:25:29 AM Ciara25
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* The Dead themselves. The protagonists are always talking about innocent people being killed and having their spirits enslaved and hoping like heck it doesn't happen to them, but it's all too easy to forget that a lot of the baddies that are doing things of their own relatively free will, all the Greater Dead, ''used to be human as well.''

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* The Dead themselves. The protagonists are always talking about innocent people being killed and having their spirits enslaved and hoping like heck it doesn't happen to them, but it's all too easy to forget that a lot of the baddies that are doing things of their own relatively free will, all the Greater Dead, ''used to be human as well.'''' What's more, a lot of the tools necromancers use, like Gore Crows and Mordaunts, are powered by dead spirits.
26th Nov '15 5:24:54 PM TheQueenofSpades
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** In ''Clariel'', Mogget mentions the creatures are specifically contained in such a way that they can't use their power, but can still communicate. Specifically, so that someone (presumably the Abhorsen or maybe one of the Royal line) can question them. Both free magic creatures [[spoiler: Clariel]] frees can remember the creation of the Charter, so the Abhorsens (and the Clayr, who have a similar containment system in the library) probably don't want to lose incredibly valuable pieces of living history.
** It's also nearly impossible to completely destroy them. Not all Abhorsens are equally dedicated to the job, and so a lot of the creatures were probably trapped by powerful Charter Mages doing the best that they can manage (like Lirael with the Stilken).
16th Jun '15 7:05:12 PM billybobfred
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* Y'know, it seems like Astarael would be a GameBreaker level bell if you just wore earplugs. Yeah, yeah, I know, it's magic, surely that won't actually work, but it's kinda weird that they never actually addressed the idea. [[spoiler:Except they did, at the beginning of ''Abhorsen''. Sam suggests wearing earplugs to ward against the thing under the well -- which is much later revealed to be Astarael herself -- and Mogget shoots the idea down, citing that you'd hear her voice in your very bones.]]
28th Apr '15 6:11:28 PM Somariel
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*** Yeah, at the end of ''Sabriel'', Lirael was '''''at most''''' a four-week-old ''fetus''. It's pretty clear from what Lirael sees in the Dark Mirror that she was conceived literally the night before Terciel started the trip to Belisaere that left him trapped in Death until Sabriel rescued him. Near the beginning of ''Sabriel'', when Sabriel is talking to Colonel Horyse before entering the Old Kingdom, Colonel Horyse says that the full moon will occur in fourteen days. Then, when Sabriel and Touchstone arrive back in Ancelstierre near the end of the book, Colonel Horyse tells them that the full moon is ''that night''. Sabriel does say after that that she's certain that she was in the Old Kingdom for at least sixteen days, but Colonel Horyse explains that there's often a small time discrepancy between Ancelstierre and the Old Kingdom. It's highly unlikely that it took Terciel more than a week to reach Belisaere from Abhorsen's House, so even if Sabriel was in the Old Kingdom for twenty days, that's still less than a month after Lirael's conception.




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* In the first chapter of ''Sabriel'', the narration says that the sound of the First Gate gets louder as the messenger from Sabriel's father passes through it, but every other time something passes through the First Gate (including at least one other instance in ''Sabriel''), the narration says that the sound of the gate ceases. It may be a simple case of the author changing his mind and forgetting to go back and edit, but there's also one noticeable difference between that first instance and all the other times--the messenger from Sabriel's father was passing ''from'' the '''First''' Precinct ''into'' the '''Second''' Precinct. Every other time something passes through the First Gate, it's going from the ''Second'' Precinct into the ''First'' Precinct.
19th Apr '15 1:05:23 AM YeMightyDespair
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** Yes, but Lirael was very young at that time and the Powers That Be probably thought that it was far too long a time for the Kingdom to go without a proper Abhorsen. And given all of the Dead and other nasties that plagued the land during that time, they were right.
30th Mar '15 1:49:40 AM SeptimusHeap
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** They may not have been invited in the first place, they may have snuck in. Plus, not all of them can be dealt with by Clayr; the Stilken, for example, can only be killed with Free Magic, something no self-respecting Clayr is going to use even for a good cause, but it can be sealed using Charter Magic. The others might have been kept around as research subjects, then forgotten about. They should really either stop doing that, start putting them in slightly less stupid places, or start taking inventory every couple of decades to make sure nothing unpleasant gets out, but where would the fun be in that?
** Or, as the Clayr can see the future and tend to plan ridiculously far ahead [[FridgeBrilliance maybe they're kept there waiting for some important reason in the future]], (like they did with the Remembrancer's tools for Lirael).
** It's also stated that by living so much in the future they tend to forget the present. There may be a bit of 'BystanderSyndrome' mentality if they don't See themselves doing something about it.
** The delay for categorising a new aquisition to the library is 50 years ''minimum''.



** Well, the two obvious reasons are: A.) Garth Nix hadn't thought up Lirael yet B.) Lirael was barely a newborn baby at that time and thus there was no one to immediately take over as Abhorsen if Sabriel died then.
30th Mar '15 1:26:56 AM starcrossedsoul
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**[[spoiler: Alternately, given that the royal and Abhorsen lines are still tightly mingled, any of Sam's children could easily become Lirael's successor. We don't really know if Wallmaker is something that can be passed down, or if it's Just Sam, Because of Fate.]]
14th Dec '14 5:34:00 AM NobodysSavior
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***No, he definitely remembers the marks from [[spoiler:the bell]] because that poem refers to the bloodlines: One in the people who wear the crown (Royals) Two in the folk who keep the dead down (the Abhorsen) Three and Five became stone and mortar (the Wallmakers, I guess there were two types) Four seems all in frozen water (the Clayr)
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