Follow TV Tropes

Following

History Analysis / SpaceFighter

Go To

OR

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


Notably, the way modern fighters deal with active radar homing missiles is to release chaff, material that provides false radar signatures to the missile. The way this can be defeated is by measuring the doppler shift from the radar signal, because chaff loses speed quickly when shot out of an aircraft - however, this is not the case in space as there is no friction or air resistance, meaning that even modern countermeasures would be significantly more effective against radar-homing missiles in space, possibly to the point of rendering them incapable of hitting their target.

to:

Notably, the way modern fighters deal with active radar homing missiles is to release chaff, material that provides false radar signatures to the missile. The way this can be defeated is by measuring the doppler shift from the radar signal, because chaff loses speed quickly when shot out of an while the aircraft - however, doesn't. However, in space, this is not the case in space as there is no friction or air resistance, meaning that even longer applies, making modern countermeasures would be significantly signifcantly more effective against radar-homing missiles in space, possibly to the space. This would also be a problem for drones or long-ranged point defence; and potentially justifies the knife-fight ranges of rendering them incapable of hitting their target.
movie dogfights, if the long-ranged air-to-air missiles used today would be defeated significantly more easily.

Added: 1109

Changed: 295

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


Notably, the way modern fighters deal with active radar homing missiles is to release chaff, material that provides false radar signatures to the missile. The way this can be defeated is by measuring the doppler shift from the radar signal, because chaff loses speed quickly when shot out of an aircraft - however, this is not the case in space as there is no friction or air resistance, meaning that even modern countermeasures would be significantly more effective against radar-homing missiles in space, possibly to the point of rendering them incapable of hitting their target.



Additionally, with any significant time lag, remotely-operated drones become impractical - and if there's propulsion technology capable of closing that gap extremely fast, whether sublight or in the form of FTL hops, it is quite probably too expensive to fit on single-use missiles. Using a fighter which can close most of that distance before launching a much smaller, cheaper missile with the same warhead (because it doesn't need the additional Delta-V to cross the cap in a useful timeframe), is a practical way around this.



A9 above might be a way through this.

to:

A9 above might be a way through this.
this, as is the fact that point defence turrets might track slower in space, given they would be packing significant extra weight in the form of a cooling system (no air-cooling in space) and sealing to allow access to the gun for reloading and maintenence without exposing the gunner to hard vacuum.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


Quite simply, space fighters are easier and cheaper to build than large ships. If the setting has a tech level close to what we currently have in RealLife, building a StandardSciFiFleet of capital ships may simply be impossible, or at least prohibitively difficult and expensive, but small, single-person spacecraft could be realistic enough. In such a setting, fighters would be launched directly from a planet, and combat would take place in orbit or otherwise in nearby space. Space fighters may be the most practical way -- or the ''only'' practical way -- to get any combat capability into space at all in such circumstances. This is the alternative that has come closest to becoming TruthInTelevision so far.

to:

Quite simply, space fighters are easier and cheaper to build than large ships. If the setting has a tech level close to what we currently have in RealLife, building a StandardSciFiFleet of capital ships may simply be impossible, or at least prohibitively difficult and expensive, but small, single-person spacecraft could be realistic enough. In such a setting, fighters would be launched directly from a planet, and combat would take place in orbit or otherwise in nearby space.space, with the fighters effectively serving as "satellite killers". Space fighters may be the most practical way -- or the ''only'' practical way -- to get any combat capability into space at all in such circumstances. This is the alternative that has come closest to becoming TruthInTelevision so far.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


An easy way to make this happen is to create something like a smoke screen yourself. By firing a specially designed projectile which will be inflated and/or spread out small particles that are magnetically attracted to a centre zone, one can form an area that can block incoming directed energy weapon for a short while (similar to whats being used in ''LightNovel/StarshipOperators''). Smaller ships (i.e. space fighters) can use smaller versions to shorten the distance and use solid projectile weapons, or simply move to another angle to attack.

to:

An easy way to make this happen is to create something like a smoke screen yourself. By firing a specially designed projectile which will be inflated and/or spread out small particles that are magnetically attracted to a centre zone, one can form an area that can block incoming directed energy weapon for a short while (similar to whats being used in ''LightNovel/StarshipOperators'').''Literature/StarshipOperators''). Smaller ships (i.e. space fighters) can use smaller versions to shorten the distance and use solid projectile weapons, or simply move to another angle to attack.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


!!A12. Because there are the celestials

to:

!!A12. Because there are the celestials
celestials.



!!A13. Prolonged war

The arguments are strong, that missiles are superior for a single fleet battle. How about a dozen fleet battle, maybe maintain peace and order on captured colonies? It does matter, whether an attack craft can be only used at once, or multiple times. Especially, if smaller rockets can also have advanced hardware, nuclear heat engines for example. Unlike missiles, fighters can return, if you can gather resources in space, refueling is much cheaper than getting new missiles. Yes it is also possible to build lots of new missiles with advanced electronics and drives, if you can get every kind of rare material just as easily as fuel, that can be produced even from ice comets.

Also if the attack fleet already has a high closing speed (at the magnitude of 100 km/s) then it doesn't count much, whether a missile add a further 10 km/s, or a fighter only add 4 km/s, and save the rest of the fuel for return.

!!A14. Time Lag

As noted in B9, space combat may take place at extreme ranges measuring in light seconds or even minutes. At such ranges, even lasers have to lead and predict the movements of their targets, making lasers more akin to naval artillery shells, and the overall battle much like an old fashioned battleship duel. A large craft like a battleship or even a cruiser would have its ability to maneuver and change course limited by its mass and volume. However, small craft could use its size to its advantage to make it significantly harder to lead. Thus, space fighters could get much closer to the enemy than its larger companions while maintaining the same relative ability to evade incoming fire, while having an advantage in their own accuracy due to the decreased range.

to:

!!A13. Prolonged war

war.

The arguments are strong, strong that missiles are superior for a single fleet battle. How about a dozen fleet battle, maybe maintain battles, or maintaining peace and order on captured colonies? It does matter, matters whether an attack craft can be only used at once, or multiple times. Especially, Especially if smaller rockets can also have advanced hardware, nuclear heat engines for example. Unlike missiles, fighters can return, if return. If you can gather resources in space, refueling is much cheaper than getting new missiles. Yes Yes, it is also possible to build lots of new missiles with advanced electronics and drives, if you can get every kind of rare material just as easily as fuel, fuel that can be produced even from ice comets.

Also Also, if the attack fleet already has a high closing speed (at the magnitude of 100 km/s) then it doesn't count much, matter much whether a missile add adds a further 10 km/s, or a fighter only add adds 4 km/s, and save saves the rest of the fuel for return.

a return trip.

!!A14. Time Lag

Lag.

As noted in B9, space combat may take place at extreme ranges measuring in light seconds or even minutes. At such ranges, even lasers have to lead and predict the movements of their targets, making lasers more akin to naval artillery shells, and the overall battle much like an old fashioned battleship duel. A large craft craft, like a battleship or even a cruiser cruiser, would have its ability to maneuver and change course limited by its mass and volume. However, small craft could use its size to its advantage to make it significantly harder to lead. Thus, space fighters could get much closer to the enemy than its larger companions while maintaining the same relative ability to evade incoming fire, while having an advantage in their own accuracy due to the decreased range.



Modern fighters and bombers are a threat to wet navy capital ships and land fortifications because they can carry weapons that effectively damage them. However, even in space where they do not have to fight against gravity to launch, engineering limits would prevent a relatively small fighter from carrying too big a weapon. As a counterpoint to A1 though, you can probably imagine a world where torpedoes and air-launched munitions never gained the punch to be useful against battleships or land fortifications, leaving battleship cannon as the kings of the battlefield. Alternately, future defenses such as DeflectorShields might scale with size such that even the heaviest strikecraft weapons barely damage capital craft, or not even that. Either way, strikecraft would be effectively useless in the offensive role. While a larger projectile would have more mass, it would also have more space for propulsion, fuel, '''payload''', all the useful jazz. A good existing example of this is the Literature/HonorHarrington series, where until recently the aversion of ArmorIsUseless meant that subcapital weapons lacked the punch to usefully damage (super)dreadnoughts.

to:

Modern fighters and bombers are a threat to wet navy capital ships and land fortifications because they can carry weapons that effectively damage them. However, even in space where they do not have to fight against gravity to launch, engineering limits would prevent a relatively small fighter from carrying too big a weapon. As a counterpoint to A1 though, you can probably imagine a world where torpedoes and air-launched munitions never gained the punch to be useful against battleships or land fortifications, leaving battleship cannon cannons as the kings of the battlefield. Alternately, future defenses such as DeflectorShields might scale with size such that even the heaviest strikecraft weapons barely damage capital craft, or not even that. Either way, strikecraft would be effectively useless in the offensive role. While a larger projectile would have more mass, it would also have more space for propulsion, fuel, '''payload''', all the useful jazz. A good existing example of this is the Literature/HonorHarrington series, where until recently the aversion of ArmorIsUseless meant that subcapital weapons lacked the punch to usefully damage (super)dreadnoughts.



While there are advantages as well as disadvantages to space fighters when directly compared to larger ships, a good look at the concept from the very base upwards is necessary. The first question shouldn't be "What advantage does a fighter have over a big ship?" but "What can a space fighter do?". Because we're talking about military ships here, the answer is generally to bring some sort of weapon payload (bullets, lasers, blaster bolts, missiles, bombs) in contact with a target. But the conditions of combat in space make fighters pointless for that. On planet, fighters are needed to extend the range of whatever deploys them (an airforce base or a carrier). If the base were to shoot the guns or the missiles that a fighter carries directly, it wouldn't have nearly the range that a fighter can achieve. The horizon on planet prevents direct targeting beyond a limited range. The friction of the air slows down bullets and missiles so they drop to the ground short of the target when they have been slowed down enough or their fuel has run out respectively. The engines and shape of an fighter allow far more efficient travel in atmosphere than those of a missile (or bomb or bullet).

to:

While there are advantages as well as disadvantages to space fighters when directly compared to larger ships, a good look at the concept from the very base upwards is necessary. The first question shouldn't be "What advantage does a fighter have over a big ship?" but "What can a space fighter do?". do?" Because we're talking about military ships here, the answer is generally to bring some sort of weapon payload (bullets, lasers, blaster bolts, missiles, bombs) in contact with a target. But the conditions of combat in space make fighters pointless for that. On planet, fighters are needed to extend the range of whatever deploys them (an airforce base or a carrier). If the base were to shoot the guns or the missiles that a fighter carries directly, it wouldn't have nearly the range that a fighter can achieve. The horizon on planet prevents direct targeting beyond a limited range. The friction of the air slows down bullets and missiles so they drop to the ground short of the target when they have been slowed down enough or their fuel has run out respectively. The engines and shape of an fighter allow far more efficient travel in atmosphere than those of a missile (or bomb or bullet).



Targeting is another thing that potentially looks like a reason for fighters to exist. But it is again not the case. Getting closer to the target does exactly the same thing as using a bigger lens (because there is no horizon) so the bigger lens wins. (does not get closer to danger, doesn't need refuelling, etc.)

to:

Targeting is another thing that potentially looks like a reason for fighters to exist. But it is again not the case. Getting closer to the target does exactly the same thing as using a bigger lens (because there is no horizon) so the bigger lens wins. (does (It does not get closer to danger, doesn't need refuelling, etc.)



By simple physics, a small fighter just can't carry as much fuel and ammo as a larger warship. And unlike naval gun fire support, where targets can be far enough inland that a fighter can reach but a ship's guns cannot, almost everything planetside can be hit with the right orbit. Maybe for some reason you can't or don't want to dedicate an all-up battleship to fire support, but some kind of corvette or gunboat equivalent would still be able to remain on station longer than a fighter squadron, which would have to more frequently return to the safely-distant carrier for refuelling and rearming.

As for the cloud thing, you don't need fighters to overcome. You can send recon drones or infantry spotters. If defenses are so strong that even those can't get through, you should still be working on orbital superiority and destroying surface-to-orbit defenses rather than whatever else you need more precise aiming for.

to:

By simple physics, a small fighter just can't carry as much fuel and ammo as a larger warship. And unlike naval gun fire support, where targets can be far enough inland that a fighter can reach but a ship's guns cannot, almost everything planetside can be hit with the right orbit. Maybe for some reason you can't or don't want to dedicate an all-up battleship to fire support, but some kind of corvette or gunboat equivalent would still be able to remain on station longer than a fighter squadron, which would have to more frequently return to the safely-distant carrier for refuelling refueling and rearming.

As for the cloud thing, you don't need fighters to overcome.overcome that. You can send recon drones or infantry spotters. If defenses are so strong that even those can't get through, you should still be working on orbital superiority and destroying surface-to-orbit defenses rather than whatever else you need more precise aiming for.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


If the dominant weapons are solid projectiles, interceptors would be useful as a complement to the point defense screen, thinning out incoming fire so the PD on capitals would have an easier job. Obviously, you can't do the same with energy weapons. This would also be contingent on the projectiles not being too fast, else the interceptors would have difficulty running them down.

An easy way to make this happen is to create something like a smoke screen yourself. By firing a specially designed projectile which will be inflated and/or spread out small particles that are magnetically attracted to a centre zone, one can form an area that can block incoming DEW for a short while (similar to whats being used in ''LightNovel/StarshipOperators''). Smaller ships (i.e. space fighters) can use smaller versions to shorten the distance and use solid projectile weapons, or simply move to another angle to attack.

to:

If the dominant weapons are solid projectiles, interceptors would be useful as a complement to the point defense screen, thinning out incoming fire so the PD point defense on capitals would have an easier job. Obviously, you can't do the same with energy weapons. This would also be contingent on the projectiles not being too fast, else the interceptors would have difficulty running them down.

An easy way to make this happen is to create something like a smoke screen yourself. By firing a specially designed projectile which will be inflated and/or spread out small particles that are magnetically attracted to a centre zone, one can form an area that can block incoming DEW directed energy weapon for a short while (similar to whats being used in ''LightNovel/StarshipOperators''). Smaller ships (i.e. space fighters) can use smaller versions to shorten the distance and use solid projectile weapons, or simply move to another angle to attack.



Space [[SpaceIsAnOcean is not an ocean]], but space fighters would still be more maneuverable than larger spacecraft thanks to the SquareCubeLaw. The larger a spacecraft is, the harder it is for its structure to handle the stress of rapid acceleration during maneuvers -- see [[http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Science/Size.html this web-page for more on this.]] In this case, rather than being a space version of an aircraft fighter, the space fighter would be more analogous to a PT boat or other "fast attack craft". The main question is whether this added maneuverability would be enough of an advantage to make space fighters sensible -- missiles and robotic drones would have the same strength, after all, and likely even more when you take out the mass of the pilot or life-support gear. Still, some critics of space fighters do occasionally argue that larger ships have no disadvantage at all when compared to space fighters in a realistic setting, and this is one plausible counter-argument.

to:

Space [[SpaceIsAnOcean is not an ocean]], but space fighters would still be more maneuverable than larger spacecraft thanks to the SquareCubeLaw. The larger a spacecraft is, the harder it is for its structure to handle the stress of rapid acceleration during maneuvers -- see [[http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Science/Size.html this web-page for more on this.]] In this case, rather than being a space version of an aircraft fighter, the space fighter would be more analogous to a PT patrol torpedo boat or other "fast attack craft". The main question is whether this added maneuverability would be enough of an advantage to make space fighters sensible -- missiles and robotic drones would have the same strength, after all, and likely even more when you take out the mass of the pilot or life-support gear. Still, some critics of space fighters do occasionally argue that larger ships have no disadvantage at all when compared to space fighters in a realistic setting, and this is one plausible counter-argument.



If you enter the gravity well of a planet, it is hard to get out with a big ship or the big ship simply doesn't have the power to fly in the atmosphere, but the small fighters can enter it and be back. Arguably not space fighters, but if the enemy intercepts in space, than these need to have space combat ability as well.

Also arguably that the big ship can perform orbital bombardments, but it will be hard to aim a few hundred km away, with clouds and with orbital defence shooting at you while you are zooming through your target at 7.8km/s.

to:

If you enter the gravity well of a planet, it is hard to get out with a big ship or the big ship simply doesn't have the power to fly in the atmosphere, but the small fighters can enter it and be back. Arguably These are arguably not space fighters, but if the enemy intercepts in space, than these need to have space combat ability as well.

Also arguably It may also be the case that the big ship can perform orbital bombardments, but it will be hard to aim a few hundred km away, with clouds and with orbital defence defense shooting at you while you are zooming through your target at 7.8km/s.



You cannot really distinguish a space fighter and a space frigate if it is operational with a 2 man crew, or even less than 10 like the heavy bombers of [=WW2=], while having much larger ships in your fleet.

to:

You cannot really distinguish a space fighter and a space frigate if it is both are operational with a 2 man crew, or even less than 10 like the heavy bombers of [=WW2=], while having much larger ships in your fleet.



While ''Star Wars'' isn't hard-sci, Death Star-like scenes can be put to hard SF too, if the target is a lunar base, or an asteroid mine. Lets see the lunar base scenario. Taking advantage of horizon, prepare to be attacked from multiple directions, by multiple types of threat (lasers, missiles, drones) requires something more than a simple missile. If one build a smart enough missile, why don't give it a few more km/s delta-V, so it can return after a successful mission? In the asteroid mine scenario, it can be possible to enter into big enough shafts, and fight like a river boat. The celestial body offer cover from single missiles, fighters can decelerate, and fire from point blank range. Or if they can handle lasers strong enough to harm point range defence at least, or fire really fast coilgun slugs, they don't necessary have to decelerate. Yes big ships can come close also, but a metallic asteroid offers lots of hiding places, even for big guns. Would you rather risk your battleship, or a fighter squadron? In case of a planet, yes it is plausible to land surface units, if nuke everything isn't the desirable outcome, but in this case, the shuttles carry the troops are vulnerable when they try to land. A battleship on high orbit cant react fast enough to an inbound threat, unless there are very strong and well-focused lasers. A battleship on low orbit is a huge and barely maneuverable target, stripped from its main advantage, superior range.
Even if a battleship could do everything better even on low orbit combat, why would someone waste a battleship for bombing down guerillas, capture smuggler ships, eliminate pirates, if these tasks can be easily handled by fighter squadrons (or gunboats, corvettes, in W40k, even a 70m long ship is classified as a fighter), that don't require so special infrastructure?

to:

While ''Star Wars'' isn't hard-sci, Death Star-like scenes can be put to into hard SF sci-fi too, if the target is a lunar base, or an asteroid mine. Lets see the lunar base scenario. Taking advantage of horizon, prepare preparing to be attacked from multiple directions, by multiple types of threat (lasers, missiles, drones) requires something more than a simple missile. If one build built a smart enough missile, why don't not give it a few more km/s delta-V, so it can return after a successful mission? In the asteroid mine scenario, it can be possible to enter into big enough shafts, shafts and fight like a river boat. The celestial body offer cover from single missiles, fighters can decelerate, and fire from point blank range. Or if they can handle lasers strong enough to harm point range defence defense at least, or fire really fast coilgun slugs, they don't necessary have to decelerate. Yes Yes, big ships can also come close also, close, but a metallic asteroid offers lots of hiding places, even for big guns. Would you rather risk your battleship, or a fighter squadron? In case of a planet, yes yes, it is plausible to land surface units, if nuke everything "nuke everything" isn't the desirable outcome, but in this case, the shuttles carry carrying the troops are vulnerable when they try to land. A battleship on in high orbit cant can't react fast enough to an inbound threat, unless there are have very strong and well-focused lasers. A battleship on low orbit is a huge and barely maneuverable target, stripped from of its main advantage, superior range.
Even if a battleship could do everything better even on in low orbit combat, why would someone waste a battleship for on bombing down guerillas, capture capturing smuggler ships, eliminate and eliminating pirates, if these tasks can be easily handled by fighter squadrons (or gunboats, corvettes, in W40k, even a 70m long ship is classified as a fighter), that don't require so special infrastructure?



If the universe has PD that can mow down far more aggressively-manoeuvring missiles like cavalry before {{Gatling| Good}}s, only blatant PlotArmor can protect sluggish strikecraft from getting torn to pieces even more easily. If there is no StealthInSpace, and if combat takes place over large distances, it could give the defenders plenty of time to detect incoming fighters and try to take them out from afar.

to:

If the universe has PD point defense that can mow down far more aggressively-manoeuvring missiles like cavalry before {{Gatling| Good}}s, only blatant PlotArmor can protect sluggish strikecraft from getting torn to pieces even more easily. If there is no StealthInSpace, and if combat takes place over large distances, it could give the defenders plenty of time to detect incoming fighters and try to take them out from afar.



You can shoot down a projectile. You cannot do the same for directed energy; if it's already on-target, one can only attempt to absorb or deflect it. Sending interceptors out to aid PD would be worthless in this case.

to:

You can shoot down a projectile. You cannot do the same for directed energy; if it's already on-target, one can only attempt to absorb or deflect it. Sending interceptors out to aid PD point defense would be worthless in this case.



As for the cloud thing, you don't need fighters to overcome. You can send recon drones or infantry spotters. If defences are so strong that even those can't get through, you should still be working on orbital superiority and destroying surface-to-orbit defences rather than whatever else you need more precise aiming for.

to:

As for the cloud thing, you don't need fighters to overcome. You can send recon drones or infantry spotters. If defences defenses are so strong that even those can't get through, you should still be working on orbital superiority and destroying surface-to-orbit defences defenses rather than whatever else you need more precise aiming for.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Replaced dead link


Space [[SpaceIsAnOcean is not an ocean]], but space fighters would still be more maneuverable than larger spacecraft thanks to the SquareCubeLaw. The larger a spacecraft is, the harder it is for its structure to handle the stress of rapid acceleration during maneuvers -- see [[http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Science/Size.html this web-page for more on this]]. In this case, rather than being a space version of an aircraft fighter, the space fighter would be more analogous to a PT boat or other "fast attack craft". The main question is whether this added maneuverability would be enough of an advantage to make space fighters sensible -- missiles and robotic drones would have the same strength, after all, and likely even more when you take out the mass of the pilot or life-support gear. Still, some critics of space fighters do occasionally argue that larger ships have no disadvantage at all when compared to space fighters in a realistic setting, and this is one plausible counter-argument.

to:

Space [[SpaceIsAnOcean is not an ocean]], but space fighters would still be more maneuverable than larger spacecraft thanks to the SquareCubeLaw. The larger a spacecraft is, the harder it is for its structure to handle the stress of rapid acceleration during maneuvers -- see [[http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Science/Size.html this web-page for more on this]]. this.]] In this case, rather than being a space version of an aircraft fighter, the space fighter would be more analogous to a PT boat or other "fast attack craft". The main question is whether this added maneuverability would be enough of an advantage to make space fighters sensible -- missiles and robotic drones would have the same strength, after all, and likely even more when you take out the mass of the pilot or life-support gear. Still, some critics of space fighters do occasionally argue that larger ships have no disadvantage at all when compared to space fighters in a realistic setting, and this is one plausible counter-argument.



A1 will still be valid countering B4 as long as no force field technology is developed. Physics tells us that no matter how thick your armour is, each attack is still going to chip away the armour bit by bit. Also, Hyper Velocity Impact tests(http://ares.jsc.nasa.gov/ares/hvit/hit.cfm) shows that a thick armour is not an ideal defense against KEW at really high speeds.

to:

A1 will still be valid countering B4 as long as no force field technology is developed. Physics tells us that no matter how thick your armour is, each attack is still going to chip away the armour bit by bit. Also, Hyper Velocity Impact tests(http://ares.[[https://hvit.jsc.nasa.gov/ares/hvit/hit.cfm) gov/hypervelocity-testing Hyper Velocity Impact tests]] shows that a thick armour is not an ideal defense against KEW at really high speeds.



While Star Wars isnt hard-sci, Death Star like scenes can be put to hard SF too, if the target is a lunar base, or an asteroid mine. Lets see the lunar base scenario. Taking advantage of horizont, prepare to be attacked from multiple directions, by multiple types of threat (lasers, missiles, drones) requires something more than a simple missile. If one build a smart enough missile, why dont give it a few more km/s delta-V, so it can return after a succesful mission? In the asteroid mine scenario, it can be possible to enter into big enough shafts, and fight like a river boat. The celestial body offer cover from single missiles, fighters can decelerate, and fire from point blank range. Or if they can handle lasers strong enough to harm point range defence at least, or fire really fast coilgun slugs, they dont necessary have to decelerate. Yes big ships can come close also, but a metallic asteroid offers lots of hiding places, even for big guns. Would you rather risk your battleship, or a fighter squadron? In case of a planet, yes it is plausible to land surface units, if nuke everything isnt the desirable outcome, but in this case, the shuttles carry the troops are vulnerable when they try to land. A battleship on high orbit cant react fast enough to an inbound threat, unless there are very strong and well-focused lasers. A battleship on low orbit is a huge and barely maneuverable target, stripped from its main advantage, superior range.
Even if a battleship could do everything better even on low orbit combat, why would someone waste a battleship for bombing down guerillas, capture smuggler ships, eliminate pirates, if theese tasks can be easily handled by fighter squadrons (or gunboats, corvettes, in W40k, even a 70m long ship is classified as a fighter), that dont require so special infrastructure?

to:

While Star Wars isnt ''Star Wars'' isn't hard-sci, Death Star like Star-like scenes can be put to hard SF too, if the target is a lunar base, or an asteroid mine. Lets see the lunar base scenario. Taking advantage of horizont, horizon, prepare to be attacked from multiple directions, by multiple types of threat (lasers, missiles, drones) requires something more than a simple missile. If one build a smart enough missile, why dont don't give it a few more km/s delta-V, so it can return after a succesful successful mission? In the asteroid mine scenario, it can be possible to enter into big enough shafts, and fight like a river boat. The celestial body offer cover from single missiles, fighters can decelerate, and fire from point blank range. Or if they can handle lasers strong enough to harm point range defence at least, or fire really fast coilgun slugs, they dont don't necessary have to decelerate. Yes big ships can come close also, but a metallic asteroid offers lots of hiding places, even for big guns. Would you rather risk your battleship, or a fighter squadron? In case of a planet, yes it is plausible to land surface units, if nuke everything isnt isn't the desirable outcome, but in this case, the shuttles carry the troops are vulnerable when they try to land. A battleship on high orbit cant react fast enough to an inbound threat, unless there are very strong and well-focused lasers. A battleship on low orbit is a huge and barely maneuverable target, stripped from its main advantage, superior range.
Even if a battleship could do everything better even on low orbit combat, why would someone waste a battleship for bombing down guerillas, capture smuggler ships, eliminate pirates, if theese these tasks can be easily handled by fighter squadrons (or gunboats, corvettes, in W40k, even a 70m long ship is classified as a fighter), that dont don't require so special infrastructure?



!!B6. Everything Space Fighters can do something else can do better.

to:

!!B6. Everything Space Fighters can do do, something else can do better.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


Space combat may take place at ranges well beyond radar detection, or from behind a convenient celestial the radars can't see through. Ambushes in particular, if you know where the target is, can be carried out by firing from outside their detection range and leading their movement correctly. Smaller craft such as the Space Fighter can be deployed, using their own radars to see around celestials and further out to report back to the mothership. Smaller craft with less radar visibility are also able to get closer to the enemy before detection, allowing them to see (and report back on) the target before being seen. Even if the fighters never fire their own shots and simply act as their mothership's artillery spotters, it's still a useful role to be sent ahead of the mothership to give them early warning and information.

to:

Space combat may take place at ranges well beyond radar or thermal detection, or from behind a convenient celestial the radars that sensors can't see through. Ambushes in particular, if you know where the target is, can be carried out by firing from outside their detection range and leading their movement correctly. Smaller craft such as the Space Fighter can be deployed, using their own radars and thermal sensors to see around celestials and further out to report back to the mothership. Smaller craft with less radar visibility are also able to get closer to the enemy before detection, allowing them to see (and report back on) the target before being seen. Even if the fighters never fire their own shots and simply act as their mothership's artillery spotters, it's still a useful role to be sent ahead of the mothership to give them early warning and information.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


!!A12. Becasue there are the celestials

to:

!!A12. Becasue Because there are the celestials
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


An easy way to make this happen is to create something like a smoke screen yourself. By firing a specially designed projectile which will be inflated and/or spread out small particles that are magnetically attracted to a centre zone, one can form an area that can block incoming DEW for a short while (similar to whats being used in ''Anime/StarshipOperators''). Smaller ships (i.e. space fighters) can use smaller versions to shorten the distance and use solid projectile weapons, or simply move to another angle to attack.

to:

An easy way to make this happen is to create something like a smoke screen yourself. By firing a specially designed projectile which will be inflated and/or spread out small particles that are magnetically attracted to a centre zone, one can form an area that can block incoming DEW for a short while (similar to whats being used in ''Anime/StarshipOperators'').''LightNovel/StarshipOperators''). Smaller ships (i.e. space fighters) can use smaller versions to shorten the distance and use solid projectile weapons, or simply move to another angle to attack.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


As for the cloud thing, you don't need fighters to overcome. You can send recon drones or infantry spotters. If defences are so strong that even those can't get through, you should still be working on orbital superiority and destroying orbit-to-surface defences rather than whatever else you need more precise aiming for.

to:

As for the cloud thing, you don't need fighters to overcome. You can send recon drones or infantry spotters. If defences are so strong that even those can't get through, you should still be working on orbital superiority and destroying orbit-to-surface surface-to-orbit defences rather than whatever else you need more precise aiming for.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


Approaching A9 from the other side, depending on how the technology pans out, the different roles a spacecraft's crew has to handle may get more complex, such that the traditional fighter's pilot-weapon systems officer two-man crew may no longer be adequate and larger crews are needed. For example, sensors could get more advanced and complex without data-analysis AI or software keeping up, resulting in the need to spin off a dedicated sensor officer to keep track of what's going on in the fight. In such a situation, crew complements could balloon to the point where they more closely resemble fast attack craft or patrol boats'. As such, although they might still technically count as "fighters" by virtue of being short-legged and reliant on carriers for operating away from friendly ports, their doctrine would necessarily differ from traditional fighters'. Once again, see the Honorverse's light attack craft for an existing example.

to:

Approaching A9 from the other side, depending on how the technology pans out, the different roles a spacecraft's crew has to handle may get more complex, such that the traditional fighter's pilot-weapon systems officer two-man crew may no longer be adequate and larger crews are needed. For example, sensors could get more advanced and complex without data-analysis AI or software keeping up, resulting in the need to spin off a dedicated sensor officer to keep track of what's going on in the fight. See, for example, the B-52 having dedicated weapons system officer, navigator and electronic warfare officer stations. In such a situation, crew complements could balloon to the point where they more closely resemble fast attack craft or patrol boats'. As such, although they might still technically count as "fighters" by virtue of being short-legged and reliant on carriers for operating away from friendly ports, their doctrine would necessarily differ from traditional fighters'. Once again, see the Honorverse's light attack craft for an existing example.

Added: 932

Changed: 72

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Added a fifteenth supporting argument.


There is no StealthInSpace, for large and long operating ships. But the same may not apply to smaller and short operating vessels. If a vessel operates with cold propellant, has an onboard system that cools down its exterior, and traps the heat inside for only a few hours, it will be much harder to detect than any big ships that inevitably heat up faster.

to:

There is no StealthInSpace, for large and long operating ships. But the same may not apply to smaller and short operating vessels. If a vessel operates with cold propellant, has lower radar cross-section (i.e., is smaller), has an onboard system that cools down its exterior, and traps the heat inside for only a few hours, it will be much harder to detect than any big ships that inevitably heat up faster.





to:

\n!!A15. Reconnaissance.

Space combat may take place at ranges well beyond radar detection, or from behind a convenient celestial the radars can't see through. Ambushes in particular, if you know where the target is, can be carried out by firing from outside their detection range and leading their movement correctly. Smaller craft such as the Space Fighter can be deployed, using their own radars to see around celestials and further out to report back to the mothership. Smaller craft with less radar visibility are also able to get closer to the enemy before detection, allowing them to see (and report back on) the target before being seen. Even if the fighters never fire their own shots and simply act as their mothership's artillery spotters, it's still a useful role to be sent ahead of the mothership to give them early warning and information.

This can be combined with A1 and A3 by forming a large, loose "bubble" formation around the mothership.


Changed: 100

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


While Star Wars isnt hard-sci, Death Star like scenes can be put to hard SF too, if the target is a lunar base, or an asteroid mine. Lets see the lunar base scenario. Taking advantage of horizont, prepare to be attacked from multiple directions, by multiple types of threat (lasers, missiles, drones) requires something more than a simple missile. If one build a smart enough missile, why dont give it a few more km/s delta-V, so it can return after a succesful mission? In the aseroid mine scenario, it can be possible to enter into big enough shafts, and fight like a river boat. The celestial body offer cover from single missiles, fighters can decelerate, and fire at point blank range, or if they can handle lasers strong enough to harm point range defence at least, or fire really fast coilgun slugs, they dont necessary have to decelerate. Yes big ships can come close also, but a metallic asteroid offers lots of hiding places, even for big guns. Would you rather risk your battleship, or a fighter squadron? In case of a planet, while it is plausible to land surface units, if nuke everything isnt the desirable outcome, but in this case, the shuttles carry the troops are vulnerable when they try to land. A battleship on high orbit cant react fast enough to an inbound threat, unless there are very strong and well-focused lasers. A battleship on low orbit is a huge and barely maneuverable target, stripped from its main advantage, superior range.
Even if a battleship could do everything better even on low orbit combat, why would someone waste a battleship for bombing down guerillas, capture smuggler ships, eliminate pirates, if theese tasks can be easily handled by fighter squadrons, that dont require so special infrastructure?

to:

While Star Wars isnt hard-sci, Death Star like scenes can be put to hard SF too, if the target is a lunar base, or an asteroid mine. Lets see the lunar base scenario. Taking advantage of horizont, prepare to be attacked from multiple directions, by multiple types of threat (lasers, missiles, drones) requires something more than a simple missile. If one build a smart enough missile, why dont give it a few more km/s delta-V, so it can return after a succesful mission? In the aseroid asteroid mine scenario, it can be possible to enter into big enough shafts, and fight like a river boat. The celestial body offer cover from single missiles, fighters can decelerate, and fire at from point blank range, or range. Or if they can handle lasers strong enough to harm point range defence at least, or fire really fast coilgun slugs, they dont necessary have to decelerate. Yes big ships can come close also, but a metallic asteroid offers lots of hiding places, even for big guns. Would you rather risk your battleship, or a fighter squadron? In case of a planet, while yes it is plausible to land surface units, if nuke everything isnt the desirable outcome, but in this case, the shuttles carry the troops are vulnerable when they try to land. A battleship on high orbit cant react fast enough to an inbound threat, unless there are very strong and well-focused lasers. A battleship on low orbit is a huge and barely maneuverable target, stripped from its main advantage, superior range.
Even if a battleship could do everything better even on low orbit combat, why would someone waste a battleship for bombing down guerillas, capture smuggler ships, eliminate pirates, if theese tasks can be easily handled by fighter squadrons, squadrons (or gunboats, corvettes, in W40k, even a 70m long ship is classified as a fighter), that dont require so special infrastructure?

Added: 33

Changed: 2144

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Update A12 and react to B11


No cover, no hiding place, no horizont, entirely true in deep space, not if you want to capture something. If you want to capture an asteroid mine for example, mobile defender units can move behind the asteroid, or even hide in a shaft, missiles are a waste against them. Fighters can attack behind cover, and one don't have to bring the big ones close -- the later sacrifices the advantage of superior laser range, and make the big ships also quite vulnerable.

to:

No cover, no hiding place, no horizont, entirely true in deep space, not While Star Wars isnt hard-sci, Death Star like scenes can be put to hard SF too, if you want to capture something. If you want to capture the target is a lunar base, or an asteroid mine for example, mobile defender units can move behind mine. Lets see the asteroid, or even hide in a shaft, missiles are a waste against them. Fighters can attack behind cover, and one don't have to bring the big ones close -- the later sacrifices the lunar base scenario. Taking advantage of superior laser horizont, prepare to be attacked from multiple directions, by multiple types of threat (lasers, missiles, drones) requires something more than a simple missile. If one build a smart enough missile, why dont give it a few more km/s delta-V, so it can return after a succesful mission? In the aseroid mine scenario, it can be possible to enter into big enough shafts, and fight like a river boat. The celestial body offer cover from single missiles, fighters can decelerate, and fire at point blank range, and make the or if they can handle lasers strong enough to harm point range defence at least, or fire really fast coilgun slugs, they dont necessary have to decelerate. Yes big ships also quite vulnerable.
can come close also, but a metallic asteroid offers lots of hiding places, even for big guns. Would you rather risk your battleship, or a fighter squadron? In case of a planet, while it is plausible to land surface units, if nuke everything isnt the desirable outcome, but in this case, the shuttles carry the troops are vulnerable when they try to land. A battleship on high orbit cant react fast enough to an inbound threat, unless there are very strong and well-focused lasers. A battleship on low orbit is a huge and barely maneuverable target, stripped from its main advantage, superior range.
Even if a battleship could do everything better even on low orbit combat, why would someone waste a battleship for bombing down guerillas, capture smuggler ships, eliminate pirates, if theese tasks can be easily handled by fighter squadrons, that dont require so special infrastructure?



The arguments are strong, that missiles are superior for a single fleet battle. How about a dozen fleet battle, maybe maintain peace and order on captured colonies? It does matter, whether an attack craft can be only used at once, or multiple times. Especially, if smaller rockets can also have advanced hardware, nuclear heat engines for example. Unlike missiles, fighters can return, if you can gather resources in space, refueling is much cheaper than getting new missiles.

to:

The arguments are strong, that missiles are superior for a single fleet battle. How about a dozen fleet battle, maybe maintain peace and order on captured colonies? It does matter, whether an attack craft can be only used at once, or multiple times. Especially, if smaller rockets can also have advanced hardware, nuclear heat engines for example. Unlike missiles, fighters can return, if you can gather resources in space, refueling is much cheaper than getting new missiles.
missiles. Yes it is also possible to build lots of new missiles with advanced electronics and drives, if you can get every kind of rare material just as easily as fuel, that can be produced even from ice comets.


Added DiffLines:

Updated A12 for counterarguments.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


You cannot really distinguish a space fighter and a space frigate if it is operational with a 2 man crew, or even less than 10 like the heavy bombers of WW2, while having much larger ships in your fleet.

to:

You cannot really distinguish a space fighter and a space frigate if it is operational with a 2 man crew, or even less than 10 like the heavy bombers of WW2, [=WW2=], while having much larger ships in your fleet.

Added: 768

Changed: 15

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
I wanted to add my own "why space fighters are practical" reason



to:

!!A14. Time Lag

As noted in B9, space combat may take place at extreme ranges measuring in light seconds or even minutes. At such ranges, even lasers have to lead and predict the movements of their targets, making lasers more akin to naval artillery shells, and the overall battle much like an old fashioned battleship duel. A large craft like a battleship or even a cruiser would have its ability to maneuver and change course limited by its mass and volume. However, small craft could use its size to its advantage to make it significantly harder to lead. Thus, space fighters could get much closer to the enemy than its larger companions while maintaining the same relative ability to evade incoming fire, while having an advantage in their own accuracy due to the decreased range.


Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


Another issue related to B8 is acceleration. InertialDampeners aside, a small space fighter may be able to reach a higher acceleration than, say, a capital ship but the former having small fuel reserves will stuck at a certain velocity (you'd better save fuel to brake or maneuver in both cases), while the larger ship even if it had a far worse acceleration could maintain it for a longer time as it has far more fuel, eventually overtaking the fighter.

to:

Another issue related to B8 is acceleration. InertialDampeners InertialDampening aside, a small space fighter may be able to reach a higher acceleration than, say, a capital ship but the former having small fuel reserves will be stuck at a certain velocity (you'd better save fuel to brake or maneuver in both cases), while the larger ship even if it had a far worse acceleration could maintain it for a longer time as it has far more fuel, eventually overtaking the fighter.

Added: 455

Changed: 443

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


Another issue related to B8 is acceleration. InertialDampeners aside, a small space fighter may be able to reach a higher acceleration than, say, a capital ship but the former having small fuel reserves will stuck at a certain velocity (you'd better save fuel to brake or maneuver in both cases), while the larger ship even if it had a far worse acceleration could maintain it for a longer time as it has far more fuel, eventually overtaking the fighter.



Another issue related to B8 is acceleration. InertialDampeners aside, a small space fighter may be able to reach a higher acceleration than, say, a capital ship but the former having small fuel reserves will stuck at a certain velocity (you'd better save fuel to brake in both cases), while the larger ship even if it had a far worse acceleration could maintain it for a longer time as it has far more fuel, eventually overtaking the fighter.

to:

Another issue related to B8 is acceleration. InertialDampeners aside, a small space fighter may be able to reach a higher acceleration than, say, a capital ship but the former having small fuel reserves will stuck at a certain velocity (you'd better save fuel to brake in both cases), while the larger ship even if it had a far worse acceleration could maintain it for a longer time as it has far more fuel, eventually overtaking the fighter.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None



to:

Another issue related to B8 is acceleration. InertialDampeners aside, a small space fighter may be able to reach a higher acceleration than, say, a capital ship but the former having small fuel reserves will stuck at a certain velocity (you'd better save fuel to brake in both cases), while the larger ship even if it had a far worse acceleration could maintain it for a longer time as it has far more fuel, eventually overtaking the fighter.

Top