Archived Discussion

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Fast Eddie: Just moving the discussion over here ...

(anon) But why? The plan to flood the world with demon-fighting superheroes seems remarkably counterintuitive for the very personification of evil, especially if they were already going to die out, as is suggested here.

(anon) It could then either approach them quicker than the Scoobies could and use them as it's own army or simply allow the current demons in the world to slowly wittle them down.

Looney Toons: There's a pair of Fan Fic stories — the beginnings of a series — over on the "Twisting the Hellmouth" site which actually take this idea and runs with it. I forget the name of the first story, but the second is "Return To Normal". The idea is that Buffy actually died in that conflict at the end of the series, and the First Evil managed to take over her body — and is now building the Slayers into an army with which to conquer as a first step in its long-term plans of ... well, whatever they are. Ultimate oblivion? Buffy being Buffy, she doesn't quite stay dead, of course...

Jason: That's where this idea really comes from. Those fanfics aren't the only one in those style and the authors of those stories take a very "I'm showing you what really happened" approach to the sotry. Given the seriousness of the their tone and the number of people who give positive reviews on the plot, this is what they think

Willow is bi: Umm... isn't this obvious? Considering that she's seen kissing both guys and girls at some time during the series?

Mark Z: It's rather suspicious that Warren's robotic girlfriend is strong enough to fight Buffy on an equal footing - surely it would be simpler to make a human-strength robot. Not really. The robot is human-sized, and servo motors are much more powerful than muscles of the same size. Warren uses technology to cover for his limitations—he'd build the strongest robot he could.

Obviously Warren's first robot was a copy of Buffy, super-strength included. He just changed its appearance later on, perhaps because he was afraid Buffy would discover it. Buffy's Slayer powers weren't common knowledge in high school. And Warren never feared that anyone would discover the robot, because he didn't expect her to escape.

Cassus335: rattybad1's going to be trouble, I can tell. Excuse me while I do a clear out...

Ununnilium: Indeed. Hey, rattybad1? These are supposed to be theories, not complete scientific proofs. Cutting... well, basically anything that says "This theory might be wrong, therefore it is."

Rattybad1: Well I'm not so much trouble as someone needing clarification—after my comments I went to the forum to see what "WMG" really means, with an eye towards seeing if "theory" meant what it usually does, which is a set of principles used to explain something. None of the theories were bothering to explain anything, but were instead seeming like random thoughts that were easily nixed with an example or two. I don't see that as troublesome. I see it as helping. If, for instance, you want to claim that leprechauns do exist just because they could, and a word or two about how that doesn't really fly, logically, can make that theory fall apart, then it really wasn't much of a theory, was it? Anyway, the forum basically came back with "yeah, well..." so I stopped making what edits I did, figuring no one cared that these "theories" really weren't.

fleb: This isn't science class; and outside of there, the word 'theory' is a lot looser with what it can mean.

  • The fact that Dracula has several powers that vampires don't have comes likely from his having gypsy or magic powers, which any vampire could have if they wanted to learn there, and therefore Dracula is not an über vampire but one who has simply applied himself differently than most vamps, so his disparate power level is entirely plausible. Furthermore, his "arbitrary initial" appearance is no different from most arbitrary initial appearances made by other villains in the series—Glory, etc. As to the anticlimactic, inconclusive defeat, this could also be applied to Spike and other vampires who do return—several times in fact—to wreak havoc on Sunnydale. And let's not forget that most places in Sunnydale are not introduced until their needed, such as the airport and Sunnydale U. which, like the castle all seem to appear when they're needed, which makes sense of course. But most importantly is the post hoc ergo propter hoc ("after this, therefore because of this") argument regarding Dawn's appearance in relation to Dracula's. That's like saying the sun rose this morning because a rooster crowed minutes beforehand. Likely that Dawn had made an appearance in Buffy's life already but was not featured in on-screen for dramatic effect. Had Dawn been mentioned first, would that mean she caused the appearance of Dracula? Likely not.

  • The argument that, because some things exist, others must therefore also exist, is not a logical assumption. It's called negative proof. It's also a false premise: just because SOME fantastic creatures exist does not mean ALL fantastic creatures exist.
    • True, but there's no reason why leprechans can't exist. The Buffyverse seems to have everything else.
      • But again, this is called negative proof. Just because most things exist does not mean everything will, and therefore, unless we see the leprechauns, we can not make the statement that they do exist. Also, the WMG here is that leprecauns "do" exist, which is entirely specious. To say that they "can" exist is about as useful as saying leprechauns "can" exist in the real world. For instance, I could say that because lions, tigers and bears exist, that unicorns must exist since those other animals do. The argument here, in fact, could also be that unicorns and any other thing we haven't seen do exist, either in reality or on Buffy.. However, the existence of a unicorn (like a leprechaun) must be shown to exist in its own context.

    • While that's a nice observation, the credits themselves are culled from scenes in the show but do not suggest a meta-commentary on the show.

  • While Slayers have some demon blood, it should be noted that most demons in the Buffyverse have super-strength, rapid healing, and often mystical connections. The Slayer is an über-human, not a quasi-vamp.

  • The reason Spike developed his crush is that he was unable to hurt humans and had to find an egress for his violent tendencies, which put him in cahoots with the Slayer and a relationship formed. Being that it's normal to develop relationships with coworkers, particularly in dangerous situations, this is less a case of brain damage than a case of absolutely normal relationship development. His Spikefication occurred because of his brain operation, but he remained loyal even after the chip was removed because he had his soul. Therefore, the relationship with Buffy is a product of, not the cause of, his Spikefication. This is not a counter-theory but a clarification.

And this one actually does prove that it couldn't be true, so I'm cutting that part out:
. He demonstrates this for Buffy in "Fool For Love" by making a threatening gesture, and then doing the same thing but intending to hurt her, for which he gets zapped. This means that several other scenes involving the chip aren't quite so straightforward. For example, when Spike "proves" that Tara is human by punching her, he's really proving that he thinks she's human. Everyone else buys it because they already believe she's human—except her father, who doesn't even know Spike and has no reason to be convinced, but backs down because Tara's new friends are scary, scary people. Conversely, Spike can hurt Buffy after she comes back in S6 because he thinks she's a demon of some kind.
  • Except demons seem to recognize other demons, so Spike would have known Buffy wasn't a demon by virtue of the fact that he didn't detect it in her, and therefore wouldn't have thought that she was a demon. By that rationale, he shouldn't have been able to hit her because he couldn't believe her to be a demon.


Micah: Restoring the Doctor Who crossover theories that were deleted without explanation. Also, removing natter:
  • Actually (please don't delete this just because you can't argue with it), that is specious logic to assume that Willow is bi when it was Anya's suggestion to turn Rick into a girl.
(Incidentally, this is misses the point, which is that Willow turning Rick into a girl could be construed as evidence that she's not attracted to men, but the lack-of-competition thing is an alternate explanation.)

Fast Eddie: Pulled out some stuff that misses the point of WMG. A Lso a bunch of Dr. Who stuff that was misfiled.