This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Komodin: Can we please reach a compromise over the Die for Our Ship entry concerning the Link/Sheik shippers already? This little Edit War has gone on quite long enough.
Ryttu3k: I am willing to compromise, but my text was reverted. Perhaps if I explain my point of view here, and why I think it IS logical to assume Sheik as a different person, then Dragon Quest Z will accept the compromise? Otherwise, so long as s/he continues reverting it to the version claiming that Link/Sheik shippers hate Zelda and fail at logic, I will continue editing it out.
1) Physically, Sheik cannot be Zelda simply dressed up as a guy with a magical colour change. Their body shapes are completely different - Sheik has muscular arms, Zelda has narrow arms. Zelda has a roughly even shoulder-to-hip ratio, whereas Sheik's shoulders are FAR broader than his hips. If you go by head width, they're a fair bit wider than Zelda's. Not even concealing body armour could fix that - Zelda's arms would still extend from the same place, if it was just body armour, and I doubt there's any disguise that can physically shift the placement of your arms. And breastbinding can give Sheik's flat chest, yes, but having been around girls who breastbind, it definitely doesn't change your shoulder-to-hip ratio.
2) Mentally, it's harder to determine. However, the (canonical!) manga states that Zelda is sleeping in her mind, indicating that someone else is in charge. Whether it's a compartmentalised part of Zelda's own mind that has its own identity, or whether Sheik has a completely seperate mind of his own, isn't actually specified - so you can't claim it's logicfail to consider them seperate people. It just isn't specified.
3) However, there is some supporting evidence for them at least having seperate minds, and that's in their behaviour. Zelda, in the castle, shrieks and flails if a boulder comes anywhere near Link. Sheik, in Kakariko Village, doesn't even bother shrieking - he simply attempts to stand up to Bongo Bongo with his bare hands. Zelda, in the castle, gets trapped in a ring of fire and can't get out. Sheik, numerous times, is seen in high-up places, including one instance where he gets on top of a tree in about a second flat. Whether it's teleportation or extreme jumping skills, if Zelda did have those skills, when their lives are in danger, I believe she'd use them.
4) Link, at least, considers Sheik to be a seperate person to Zelda - he says so in the manga, and that's AFTER the revelation. So the dynamic for Link/Sheik is completely different to the dynamic for Link/Zelda even if they are the same people. Link's bonding moments with Sheik in the desert, his concern when he's injured - that's for Sheik, not for Zelda. He didn't even suspect it was Zelda at the time.
5) I'm not even protesting to what the edit essentially says - if I was truly fanatical about Sheik being a seperate person, I'd be removing all the references to Sheik and Zelda's association throughout the entire article. What I AM protesting is the wording - the link to You Fail Logic Forever (as you can see, I have logical assumptions for my beliefs), and the insinuation that liking Link/Sheik means hating Zelda. Which is patently NOT true. (I also ship Zelda/Sheik, if that's relevent, although the whole body-sharing thing does make it complicated.)
Again, I'm willing to accept a compromise with the wording I set forth earlier.
Dragon Quest Z: Are you one of those shippers? Because I will be more willing to listen if you are not.
Ganondorfdude11:Most of the arguments for Sheik being male come from the manga, which was non-canon from its inception. Most stuff to come out since Ocarina of Time has referred to Sheik as a woman, such as the Smash Bros. series. This whole debate really exists in the minds of the shippers.
Ryttu3k: My shipping preferences have no bearing on this. Yes, I ship Link/Sheik. I also ship Zelda/Sheik, Dark Link/Sheik, Dark Link/Zelda, and, occasionally, Link/Zelda (along with a host of others), and I write Sheik gen with absolutely no shipping involved anywhere. I'm certainly not a fanatical ALL NON-LINK/SHEIK SHIPPERS MUST DIE idiot, I'm just tired of everyone who ships Link/Sheik being tarred with the same brush, being considered illogical (when I've given fairly logical reasons for believing Sheik to be considered a seperate character to Zelda), and claiming that because I like one ship, then that means I must hate Zelda. Believe me, the FASTEST way to make me click the back button in a Link/Sheik fic is Zelda-bashing!
And Ganondorfdude11, the manga is considered canonical by Aonuma (see http://knightsofhyrule.org/forum/index.php?topic=170.msg774
), who's generally regarded to be a far better authority on Zelda canonicity than Miyamoto (who's admitted that he doesn't follow the story very much and tends to concentrate on the actual gameplay first, making it fit a story later). And Smash Bros reaaally doesn't have a lot of bearing on the actual Zelda games and manga. Especially Brawl - I've seen people saying that because Sheik is a girl in Brawl (and I certainly won't argue that, she LOOKS like a girl!), s/he must be a girl in Ocarina, when Brawl is based on the Twilight Princess characters.
Ganondorfdude11: The manga in many places directly contradicts the game. Later manga, such as the Minish Cap manga, completely dispense with all but the basic premise of the game and write their own plots. Aonuma also never said that the manga were canon, but that they "filled in the gaps." He was referring specifically to the Watarara, which inspired the Rito. It's an idea from the manga that he liked, and then canonized in a later game. The overwhelming majority of fans consider the manga non-canon as they directly contradict the games.
Ryttu3k: The part about the Waratara comes in later, though. This is the specific part I'm quoting:
"Nintendo actually gave them advice in which direction they should go. This time they wanted to focus on the personalities, thoughts and history of characters.
Eiji Aunoma agrees with Honda. He says he develops the games but cannot introduce all the elements the Zelda team actually wish for. The manga makes this up for them by filling the gaps in Zelda "precisely"."
The part that fills in the gaps precisely includes the part about focusing on the personalities, thoughts, and histories of the characters. The events themselves? They play out differently, yes. But the character histories and things like that are intended to be 100% canonical, since you CAN'T fit all of that into the game. Two guys wandering around in a desert talking doesn't make for a very interesting game, but putting it in the manga gives you a good insight in to both Link and Sheik's personalities.
The part about the Waratara later inspiring the Rito is a specific example given later, it's not the ONLY example. And we're not talking about the manga for the later games, it's specifically discussing the manga for Ocarina of Time.
Heroic Jay: As I've needed to point out over and over and over again on this Wiki, that Youtube video of the guy beating the running man by going to the bridge in the Kokiri Forest and waiting for a really, really, really long time. IS. A. HOAX. It is not real. The comments for that You Tube video are shills, and if you don't agree with the video then your comment won't get posted. It was created by someone who frequents Game FA Qs, who will admit the hoax when prodded. The text dump, which, yes, is complete and includes lines that aren't even used anywhere in the proper game, doesn't include anything from the running man admitting a loss. Get it yet? It's not real. Don't say it is.
Komodin: Hmm, well then. It's a bit late for apologies, is it?
Heroic Jay: Just keep in mind the basic rule of thumb for things like this on the internet: until you've done it yourself or an OFFICIAL source says it's true, assume it's a rumor.
