This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
"!!": Hey what about Beowulf? I totally see where this trope is coming from, but in this case, the Dragon (literally) is the Big Bad. I might say that it is subverting things, but it seems a bit old for that...
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Uinen: Hey, what's the deal with dragon intelligence? I'm curious about the entry's assertion that until Tolkien, Western dragons were traditionally not very wise. The Beowulf dragon is rather colourless, but I thought he was an exception. I'd have thought that Westerners would have associated traditional snaky subtlety with dragons...Any thoughts?
But what's the origin of the term, "the Dragon"?
BT The P: I don't think this is a specific reference to anything, except maybe classic fairy tales. In order to defeat the evil wizard, one must first slay the dragon. It's a decent metaphor, as the classic fairy tale dragon is not a plotter or a planner, just a scary monster.
Ununnilium: So, is The Dragon in Enter The Dragon The Dragon?
Prodigal Python: Actually, no. The Dragon in the title is the protagonist. The Dragon in the movie is someone else entirely.
Scrounge: Often times, and very often in Western animation recently, the dragon and the bigbad are one and the same... I'm looking at you when I say this, Vilgax, and I have nothing but respect... Anyhow, where shall this be noted?
Iro: As far as I remember the term "the dragon" was inspired by sailer moon. In the second season Esmeraude get's transformed into a dragon and is the second strongest enemy. Stranbge that this has completely vanished.
Hanon: The page says it was inspired by fairy tales... the fairy tales article doesn't even mention this as a common trope. In fact, I can't think of a single fairy tale where an actual dragon take on such a role. I call BS.
Citizen =P
Seth: This page is better without a picture... and definitely not that one :p
Citizen: Seth! I know, how about I put the above picture under Bleached Underpants? ^^ Because the Fate Stay Night anime replaced the "mana replenishment" sex scene with a horrible dragon CG sequence. Maybe I can stack the previous panel on top of that... Or is it still too 4chan-y? Hey, I can dream. =P
Seth: Not every page needs an image, and the purpose of the image is to make the page look better. That picture makes nothing look better.
Citizen: Waaaaa, you never let me have any fun. =P
Citizen: I'm not sure I like how The Dragon was moved to Dragon. Because Dragon is one word and could refer to... dragons. You never know when we might need a page about dragons. :3
Seth: Now you see what your madness inspired :p
Mister Six: Absolutely. This needs to be moved back to The Dragon ASAP.
Susan Davis: I'm trying to do just that, but it won't let me edit the redirect page, and the Entry Name Changer doesn't work because the redirect page exists.
Fast Eddie: Oy. I'll fix it on the server. The Entry Name Changer Tool is banished for a bit, until we come with a technical/procedural method that works more smoothly. //Later: That's in. Dragon now redirects to The Dragon. Some links may have been missed in the general in-text replacements that will need to be cleaned up as they are come upon.
Alan: I was wondering, would Chunnin Exam Gaara (or more spefically Shukkaku) fit the bill. Being not the second-in-command but an integral part of the invasion because of his power he fits "the Dragon" part perfectly.
Janitor: Brutal edit. Pulled ...
- Note that in very old Western stories, actual dragons aren't that smart. This was subverted by writers like Tolkien, and now dragons are almost universally depicted as ancient and intelligent (as they always have been in China). In the same manner, some recent series subvert the trope, by having a villainous sidekick that is smarter than his/her boss, even if they lack ambition or scientific genius.
... as it was about Our Dragons Are Different.
Turrican: removed the Shadow Hearts Covenant example. None of the Dragons named work for the next Big Bad. It's more of a case of Sorting Algorithm of Evil.
UncolaMan: Would the Queen in Chess be considered the King's Dragon? Sure, you don't have to eliminate her to win, but getting her out of the way usually makes the game a lot easier.
fleb: Yeah, I'd definitely call her The Dragon.
Fast Eddie: Not about The Dragon ...
- Also, the laws of her universe dictate that she obey his commands.
- Not completely correct. As an Erfworld rule, every unit has invisible stats like Obedience (must obey orders, but can refuse to follows orders that are negative for the ruler), Loyalty (must not act in a way that harms the ruler, or betray him) and duty, for Commanders only (must use initiative in aid of the ruler). Wanda is bound to Duty, but is much less obedient. See details here
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- Not completely correct. As an Erfworld rule, every unit has invisible stats like Obedience (must obey orders, but can refuse to follows orders that are negative for the ruler), Loyalty (must not act in a way that harms the ruler, or betray him) and duty, for Commanders only (must use initiative in aid of the ruler). Wanda is bound to Duty, but is much less obedient. See details here
- Also, the laws of her universe dictate that she obey his commands.
Beatrix Lestrange: I would argue is not a Dragon, as He Who Shall Not Be Named is far more bad ass.
Dausuul: This brings up an interesting point. Is it actually a requirement that the Dragon pose a greater combat threat than the Big Bad? If this is the case, then many of the examples here need to be removed. A lot of them seem to be treating The Dragon as simply "the Big Bad's right-hand man/woman/thing."
Caswin: Cutting the Gargoyles example. Respectively: Demona began more as Goliath's Lancer than a Dragon, given that they were both heroes at the time. During her time with Xanatos, they were both arch-villains who occasionally worked together. She was only one of many combatants (even if the Archmage was the main antagonist) in the battle for Avalon. I don't remember her having any kind of right-hand in "Hunter's Moon" — maybe Robin at a stretch, but she doesn't fit the mold. Most of the villains associated with Xanatos were simply henchmen, although it's arguable that Owen (actually not mentioned) or Bruno (ditto) would count as The Dragon for him. The same goes for Oberon, except he never had a clear right-hand type at all. Basically, the entry seems to have The Dragon confused with underlings in general. (On a broader note, I don't want this article becoming the next "any major villain is a Big Bad.")
- It seems that the dragons of Gargoyles are an unusual breed, all of whom are prone to betrayal. Demona, Goliath's Dragon, became Xanatos's and the Archmage's dragon, similarly abandoning all three for her own means. She gets a Dragon in the three part season 2 finale, who betrays her. Likewise, Anton Severious, The Mutates, and Thailog all filled Demona's gap on Xanatos's side before jumping ship for various reasons (money, morals, and power resepctively.). Oberon's various Dragons (the weird sisters, puck, and Titania) all fell out of his favor or broke off obeying him. The weird sisters wanted revenge on the Magus for defeating them, Puck was actually Xanatos's Battle Butler Owen Bennett and Titania never really agreed with her husband but, as she put it, Oberon was always right, except when he was married.
Dausuul: Rewrote the entry to downplay the "greatest physical threat to the hero" part, since standard usage throughout this wiki has The Dragon being used for pretty much any second-in-command to a Big Bad. (For instance, Redcloak is routinely described as The Dragon to Xykon, but there's no question that Xykon is a far greater physical threat than Redcloak.)
Caswin: I can't even make out what's going on in the new picture. I give up, which one is The Dragon?
- Hopeless Troper: I think it's The Dragon.
Filby: That's a dragon? It looks like a giant pile of mud shaped vaguely like a mole.
- Hopeless Troper: That's funny, because that dragon scared me shitless when I was a kid. You can find the dragon in action here. Notice how The Dragon is taking orders by the Big Bad. Take also notice which one of The Dragon or the Big Bad that the rebels are more afraid of.
Caswin: Just throwing this out there: If there's going to be a page image at all, how about Darth Vader defending The Emperor? I think that would show the concept quite nicely.
Wascally Wabbit: This.
