Archived Discussion

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Working Title: "Seinfeld" Is Unfunny: From YKTTW

Removed a lengthy tract defending Rob Liefeld from the article. Keep it on the discussion page. And yes he is a terrible artist. Get over it.

Kraas: "Black Sabbath are often considered the first metal band. Take a moment and consider how weird that sounds." This doesn't sound weird to me at all. What does this mean exactly?

Algorithm: A better title for this page might be Invented The Cliche. Seinfeld Is Un Funny really doesn't describe the trope.

Mistermister: I agree as well since Seinfeld isn't really that old, and there are better examples of this trope than Seinfeld. Plus, not everybody might have found the show to be hilarious.

Anybody have any examples of Lampshading here? I know this has been done a lot with, "Psh, X is just stealing from Y" (when X obviously came first), but I can't come up with any of my own examples at the moment.

Plasma Wing: I'm questioning the inclusion of the Atelier series here. I've heard it repeatedly stated on this site that the series was responsible for the creation of Item Crafting systems in jRPGs, but I've noticed that every one of those examples was written by the same person. At the very least, Star Ocean for the SNES had an Item Crafting system, and according to That Other Wiki, it sold 235000 copies, and it predates Atelier Marie by a year.

Susan Davis: I thought Seinfeld was unfunny when it was airing, actually....

Rich: Isn't this just Hype Aversion?

Duckluck: No, Hype Aversion just has to do with people not wanting to be followers. This trope has more to do with changing cultural context affecting how we perceive an older work. For the record, I actually think Seinfeld holds up pretty well.

32_Footsteps: This one gets thrown around a lot, because it seems that people can't understand that people would dislike something so popular while it's airing/first came out. To name a few things I've disliked from the first time I gave it a shot, there's Seinfeld, Penny Arcade, Final Fantasy VII, Doom, and Heroes. Man, I was hatin' before hatin' was cool.

HeartBurn Kid: Am I the only one who finds it amusing how the idea that Star Wars has anything at all original about it, and thus is also a victim of this trope, seems to keep getting removed and re-added to the page?

Sikon: Would Star Trek: The Original Series qualify?

That Other 1 Dude: the Memetic Mutation on Garfield have nothing to do with this.

Stm177: I've had this reaction to The Simpsons lately. I tried watching the Simpsons Movie on DVD, and it felt like a greatest hits compilation. I watched a lot of the tv episodes in the past, so maybe I'm too familiar with the jokes and can see the punchlines coming a mile away.

Pro-Mole: That's purely a clear sign that the show has, indeed, Jumped the Shark somewhen and the writers are running dry. Still, The Simpsons may qualify as the first of all openly politically incorrect animated shows to ever air.

Landstander: For that matter, this may fall under Rule-Abiding Rebel but with the first couple of seasons it's hard to see what made it so controversial in the first place. I have trouble wrapping my brain around the concept that a tshirt saying "Underachiever and proud of it" and his utterance of "I'm Bart Simpson, who the hell are you?" could cause such a stir. Is there a separate page related to this where its not the quality so much as the controversy that doesn't seem apparent to modern audiences?

Daibhid C: Sounds like a variant of Values Dissonance, only going in the opposite direction to normal.

Ezclee4050: I was in high school when The Simpsons debuted, and my memory is that the "controversy" was basically just a combination of The New Rock & Roll and Animation Age Ghetto, and the media took a few minor incidents (like the principal who banned the Underacheiver t-shirt) and blew them way out of proportion.

CA Lieber: The point — the point, indeed, of the whole trope — is that it looks like Rule-Abiding Rebel because, in part due to its influence, the rules changed.

Daibhid C: I'm not sure about this:
  • Garfield. Never what you'd call terribly fresh, but definitely much more clever and snarky prior to the merchandising mania it helped unleash.
That seems to be saying Garfield really isn't as good as it used to be. Surely the trope would be if it was as good as it used to be, but other strips were doing the same thing, so it didn't seem to be especially clever and snarky any more?

Three Dog: I think I have a better quote (than the David Bowie one) for this trope. I can't remember the exact quote, but it was the quote from Discworld's small gods (basically, that around the God Om, the original believer revolved, and from there the church rose up, and grew larger, and on the inside everybody forgot about the God that started it all.

Mman: I think this trope either needs no examples, or they should be moved to Troper Tales; It seems be based around the concept of something having "aged badly", which, despite what many people try to imply is a very subjective concept and should be handled as such.

When I first saw this trope, I loved it, because I understand and enjoy the concept of something that while not necessarily having "aged poorly", just is no longer shocking or unique anymore with everything that has come since, and thus comes off as "played out". It is a unique enough trope. However, I think that those posting examples of this trope have to be careful that they're not just posting examples of something that aged badly, something that spawned a lot of copycats, or something that is Older Than They Think, by way of elaborating on their examples. A lot of the examples are excellent, but many of them just come off as a watered-down Older Than They Think.

CA Lieber: Good point, Unknown Troper (presumably Mman. I'll add it. But I think an Example Sectionectomy is needlessly drastic.

I sort of assumed that the idea behind this topic is: what was once innovative and popular is now generally considered unwatchable, not because it aged poorly, but because it has been plundered to exhaustion. But, regardless of my personal interpretation, something like D&D has no business on this page. If you don't know that D&D invented the genre, think it has been overshadowed by what's come after it or think that it's "unplayable now" then that's a personal problem. (the problem is that you're an idiot.) Easily half the examples don't belong here.

arromdee: Deleted

  • All Quiet on the Western Front: its "War is hell" shtick looks pretty dated - loss of innocence, baptism of fire, discussing meaning/purpose of war - mainly because all other war films repeat the same stuff. Previously, war films were more propaganda-based, painting war as an awesome, bright picture of heroic soldiers giving a big mean old SOCK to the evil nazis.

Because The Big Parade (1927) didn't by any means glorify war, and because All Quiet on the Western Front was from 1930 and therefore could not have been proceeded by films containing evil Nazis.
CA Lieber: After an example calling Married... with Children "a politically incorrect comedy," cut:
  • It's likewise hard to imagine All in the Family doing the above almost two decades earlier.
All in the Family wasn't a politically incorrect comedy; it was a comedy centered on a politically correct person. The difference is the humor in MwC comes from how crass everyone is. In AitF, Archie is entertainingly wrong. It's the difference between You Suck and the Arthur Dent.
Perhaps the Isaac Newton quote should be removed. Having a knowledge of the snarky context (Newton was subtly attacking Hooke in a letter to Hooke himself, one of his lifelong critics, who was rather short), the quote is relieved of its inspirational quality. —Octane
Cheeseball701: With regards to the Friends example, I noticed sitcom Frasier had a coffee shop as a central location a year before Friends did. But should I put that in the article?
CA Lieber: Removed from the main page:
  • Films by the Brothers have been ripped off and parodied so many times that modern viewers feel like they already know the plot after three minutes of the film.
    • Wachowski? Weitz? Pang? Hughs? Farrelly? Coen? Wayans?
Please put it back if we ever figure out which brothers this person was talking about.