This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Lull The Conqueror: Kept most of the references from the YKTTW thread, except for the ones that were too vague for me to interpret (feel free to add them yourselves if you're familiar with the works in question). Also cut the Gnosticism reference, because that strikes me as more God Is Evil despite the portrayal of the Serpent as the good guy - if you know more about Gnosticism than I do, go ahead and put that back in with clarification.
Would Promethius work for this one?
Lull The Conqueror: Interesting question. Prometheus went from "bad rebel" in some work whose name I don't remember, then was "redeemed" by Aeschylus in Prometheus Bound. I don't know if he was ever really a "Satan" figure, though he probably inspired many aspects of the modern-day Satan (at least the "stealing something from the Gods" aspect). Someone who knows their classics better than I wanna give this one a shot?
Keith M: Removed the "March Upcountry" example because its referring to the same series as the "Empire of Man" example further down (as well as the latter being the correct one).
Krid: If my understanding of the Bible is correct, then satan started off his existence as an angel. Further, angels are devoid of free will. If satan turned against God, then it must have been at God's direction as he was unable to countermand God's orders. If this is true, then it means that he's a manifestation of God's... Well, I suppose self-doubt is as good a guess as any, since the Expanded Universe has his argument with God be based on God's insistence that people fly or fall on their own for the sake of free will. That would make him be the divine equivalent of the part of a parent that wants to help their kids out in spite of the kids' need for struggles to grow-up.
Ajoxer: Something to consider, from Exalted, technically speaking, it might very easily be considered that The Unconquered Sun, Patron of the Solars, is actually Lucifer. He's the lightbringer, an unparalleled warrior and commander, and he led his fellow gods into war against the unjust creators. Admittedly, this is all from a very 'Satan is Good' style of view already, yet still...
Some Guy: Removed "The Witches of Eastwick", because placing that in this trope only really makes sense if you're taking a misogynistic reading of the book as a whole. Otherwise, you get Satan Is Neutral, at best.
Moved from the page itself:
- Also, the name "Lucifer" appears only once, in what is considered by most scholars to be a dodgy translation, in Jeremiah. Said scholars also generally believe the passage wasn't even about Satan in the first place. This leaves the only Biblical mention of Satan being thrown out of Heaven in Revelation, and the context seems to indicate it's supposed to happen in the future, not the past.
- This is all sorts of wrong. The mention of "Lucifer" is in Isaiah, not Jeremiah. Also, it's very clear from the context that "Lucifer" is referring to the nation of Babylon, and no one disagrees with that; if any discussion or controversy exists, it's in wondering about the tradition that the prophecy is a sort of double-fulfillment applying to both Satan and Babylon. There is a passage in Ezekiel about an angel who was present in the Garden of Eden who God found sinful; his name is not given, however. Finally, Revelation, despite popular urban legend, has little to do with the future; the context of Revelation 12 seems to be a symbolic account of the birth of Jesus Christ, which had surely already happened by the time Revelation was written.
- Also, the name "Lucifer" appears only once, in what is considered by most scholars to be a dodgy translation, in Jeremiah. Said scholars also generally believe the passage wasn't even about Satan in the first place. This leaves the only Biblical mention of Satan being thrown out of Heaven in Revelation, and the context seems to indicate it's supposed to happen in the future, not the past.
- Also, consider the typical portrayal of hell as a place where bad people go... wouldn't this make Satan/Lucifer essentially God's prison warden? Of course, there seems to be two concepts of hell: Hell the Afterlife and Hell the Demon Fortress. Don't know which one Lucifer is supposed to be in charge of.
- Satan's in charge of the Afterlife, Lucifer's head of the Demon Fortress.
Isn't the description on the picture misspelled? Look vs. looks? I'd change gorgeous to fabulous for the lulz as I don't really find him very gorgeous myself but beauty, eye, beholders, all that...
Removed:
- John Milton (played by a scene-stealing Al Pacino) in The Devil's Advocate has a speech at the end where he portrays himself as humanity's best friend. He compares God to "a tight-ass sadist absentee landlord" and boasts that he (Satan) nurtured humanity's every impulse.
- Of course, whether this is genuine or part of a sinister plan is probably best decided by the viewer. Personally, this troper would find it difficult to be comforted by a ranting Al Pacino. And offering up your son's half-sister for him to impregnate isn't exactly the deal-clincher Al meant it to be.
- It's surprising that people see the movie as an example of this trope, or at least see Satan's morality as ambiguous — they remember one speech and overlook what he does to people over and over, throughout the film.
- Moreover they contrive to miss the point of the speech itself. Satan is pretty frank that his plan is to completely compromise the whole judicial system and ensure that all the most heinous criminals can run unchecked and unpunished. What a hero.
Satan is shown to be the villain throughout the film. Of course he's going to talk a good game, painting himself as humanity's best friend, but the audience isn't actually supposed to buy it.
