This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Seven Seals: The idea that this is "inverted" in D&D is interesting. I'd argue that it's the other way around: the idea that running up to people and hitting them stays effective late in the game is the odd one out when you're not talking J[=RPGs=]. In most other games that feature both combat and magic, magic users start off as wimps but end up as demigods, while the fighters are just seeing linear increases in their power. This is a natural consequence of magic having to be magical: there wouldn't be much point being a wizard if all you ever got for improving was spells that were just slightly stronger versions of previous spells, even though this is no problem for fighters — the game has to start pouring on the awesome, and not with just one or two ultimate spells late in the game.
That said, the fact that Last Disc Magic seems to be a JRPGism is doubtlessly influenced by the fact that the most influential Western C[=RPGs=] are all based on D&D in some way or another.
Ununnilium: Hmmmmmmmm. Name me some not-direct-D&D-licensee Western RPGs that follow that pattern; I can't think of any, but then, I haven't played many.
Seven Seals: The real challenge there is finding Western [=RPGs=] not based on D&D, since they (nearly) all came after, and D&D was hugely influential. The handful that aren't D&D inspired usually don't have "magic" in the stereotypical sense, so this trope doesn't apply.
Maybe it'd be more accurate then to call all D&D-inspired C[=RPGs=] (i.e. nearly all Western [=RPGs=]) "inversions", rather than implying (as the trope does now) that all [=RPGs=] have Last Disc Magic. In general, the wiki seems to be oriented on J[=RPGs=] when it comes to tropes and describing them. Although they certainly dwarf Western [=RPGs=] in number and audience, using them as the majority hides the dichotomy between the genres.
Ununnilium: Well, see, I'm not saying "not D&D-influenced", I'm just saying "without the D&D logo on it". So no Baldurs Gate or Neverwinter Nights.
Eric DVH: Ultima, Wizardy, Might And Magic, The Elder Scrolls, Arcanum, Exile… Also, one might say that J[=RPGs=] only dominate because most of the people that used to buy PC[=RPGs=] have all switched over to MMO[=RPGs=].
Masami Phoenix: I've removed most the D&D article, and replaced it with a simpler one, because the article had become an argument about Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards, and going over a lot of irrelevant things to this. I've included the removed article here.
- Note that the exact opposite is true in western RPGs. In Dungeons And Dragons, many players argue that physical power becomes increasingly useless with time; a barbarian or monk can moderately damage a foe with his muscles, while a wizard or cleric can instantly kill multiple enemies, or ask for virtually-impossible wishes/miracles. Even fighters use massively-enchanted swords and something on the order of a Girdle of Giant Strength. At epic levels, this effect is even more pronounced and magical gear can form a great portion of a character's combat effectiveness. While countermeasures such as Death Ward, Mind Blank, and Energy Immunity are available, not to mention spell resistance, any of these can be countered by a prepared caster. Also, it is worth pointing out, these countermeasures are also spells. Even as low as first level, a fighter or archer classes is not as effective as a magician, who can take several foes out with a simple sleep spell.
- This is because the system uses Critical Existence Failure style HP. That, combined with rapidly scaling enemy HP means they simply can't get it to zero fast enough unless they really go out of their way to do so. And as the countermeasures are spells, not only can they not naturally access it but it's more likely the party casters will have them, especially for the high level ones that do not affect multiple targets.
- In short, all the Useless Useful Spells actually work in Dungeons And Dragons.
- Averted by 4th Edition, though, which gives every class equal amounts of attack and utility powers, putting them on a much more even footing. Wizards even gets "weapons" (wands, staves, etc) that can improve the accuracy or effects of spells cast with them. There are magical versions of these that have additional powers, just like magic swords and such.
- Quantity =/= quality. One word. Orbizards.
- The problem with low level casters is that their powers run completely dry in an encounter or two due to the tiny number of times they can cast spells, made even more severe by D&D's Vancian Magic.
- Minimum number of charges = 2. You get one extra by being specialized (which only helps if Enchantment or Illusion, for Sleep and Color Spray). You get one extra for having your casting stat at 20, which is possible at level 1 with the right race without losing anything. That's 4. It takes one to win a fight. You're expected to fight four times. You do the math.
- Which in practice didn't matter at all in terms of game balance, as the entire group of adventurers, including the fighters, would retire back to town once the magic artillery was out of ammo. This too was fixed in 4th Edition, where all classes, melee and magic, have the same number of abilities that recharge at the same rate.
- While it is true everyone will stop when the casters stop as they are the only ones keeping people alive... literally, as spells are what restores life these claims about 4th edition are at best misaimed.
- Which would mean that the next time they came back, they'd find the place either abandoned or walk into an ambush...
- Averted in Hack Master, in as much as everyone tends to wind up dead before getting too powerful. But aside from that, fighter characters get other interesting perks, such as small armies of followers, or strongholds in the form of nice little castles, money wealth power fame etc.
