History Main / LastDiscMagic

29th Apr '17 7:26:10 PM AtmosBlitzer
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After all the tweaking of weapons, stats and armor, magic almost never hits as quickly, consistently, or powerfully as it would if you just run up and hit something with your basic attack. Although healing spells are always useful, SummonMagic tends to be the only offensive magic that'll hit a bunch of enemies for great damage late in the game. This is usually because, while physical attacks improve substantially with new equipment, only gaining new spells will make magic function better. This is especially true for status-affecting spells, which the enemies in the last quarter of the game or so are almost always immune against.

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After all the tweaking of weapons, stats and armor, magic almost never hits as quickly, consistently, or powerfully as it would if you just run up and hit something with your basic attack. Although healing spells are always useful, SummonMagic tends to be the only offensive magic that'll hit a bunch of enemies for great damage late in the game. This is usually because, while physical attacks improve substantially with new equipment, only gaining new spells will make magic function better. This is especially true for status-affecting spells, which the enemies in the last quarter of the game or so [[UselessUsefulSpell are almost always immune against.
against]].
2nd Apr '17 2:15:31 PM nombretomado
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* ''{{Persona 3}}'' has Messiah, the ultimate form of the Judgement Arcana, and one of the last Personae you get. It's about as strong as you'd expect.
** ''Persona 3'' also has the "severe damage" forms of the elemental spells, only available from high-level personae that mostly require you to finish a social link to unlock. All except the fire spell are single-target only, but by that point you should have the [[{{Mana}} SP]] to spend quite comfortably.
* ''VideoGame/{{Persona 4}}: Golden'' gives last disc magic to your entire party. If you max out their Social Links, you can visit them after [[spoiler:defeating Adachi]] to unlock their Tier 3 Persona. This unlocks a unique, character specific skill for each party member. Chie gets a party-wide Heat Riser, Naoto can null all damage for a turn, Yukiko gets the most powerful fire spell in the game, and even Rise gets new support skills.
** Last Disc Magic is enforced in ''VideoGame/{{Persona 4}}'' with the final few bosses, particularly on NewGamePlus. Most of the final bosses and minibosses have such ridiculous reserves of health that to even dent them you can't use any spell below -dyne grade. Also with skills like Spell Master and gear like the Chakra Robe (both halve the SP cost for all magic skills) and Rudra Robe (the same for physical skills) make it very easy and viable to merely spam spells like Megidolaon (the 'you all now die' button, but can cost up to a quarter of your SP if you are low-levelled) and Agneyastra.

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* ''{{Persona 3}}'' has ''VideoGame/Persona3'':
**
Messiah, the ultimate form of the Judgement Arcana, and one of the last Personae you get. It's about as strong as you'd expect.
** ''Persona 3'' also has the The "severe damage" forms of the elemental spells, only available from high-level personae that mostly require you to finish a social link to unlock. All except the fire spell are single-target only, but by that point you should have the [[{{Mana}} SP]] to spend quite comfortably.
* ''VideoGame/{{Persona 4}}: Golden'' gives last ''VideoGame/Persona4: Golden'':
** Last
disc magic is givne to your entire party. If you max out their Social Links, you can visit them after [[spoiler:defeating Adachi]] to unlock their Tier 3 Persona. This unlocks a unique, character specific skill for each party member. Chie gets a party-wide Heat Riser, Naoto can null all damage for a turn, Yukiko gets the most powerful fire spell in the game, and even Rise gets new support skills.
** Last Disc Magic is enforced in ''VideoGame/{{Persona 4}}'' Enforced with the final few bosses, particularly on NewGamePlus. Most of the final bosses and minibosses have such ridiculous reserves of health that to even dent them you can't use any spell below -dyne grade. Also with skills like Spell Master and gear like the Chakra Robe (both halve the SP cost for all magic skills) and Rudra Robe (the same for physical skills) make it very easy and viable to merely spam spells like Megidolaon (the 'you all now die' button, but can cost up to a quarter of your SP if you are low-levelled) and Agneyastra.
8th Dec '16 3:23:51 PM DastardlyDemolition
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** Inverted by Destruction magic. Damage from Destruction spells doesn't scale with level, meaning that beyond a certain point it CantCatchUp to archery or swordplay. In addition, the Master level spells take up both hands and have an insanely long casting time during which the caster can easily be interrupted by taking a hit, so even dedicated mages will use lower-level spells as their bread and butter.
** Played straight, on the other hand, with Shouts. Completing the main quest gives the player several powerful Shouts, such as the ability to conjure a thunderstorm which strikes everything in a wide radius with lightning or summon a dragon or powerful ghost hero to fight for you.

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** Inverted by Destruction magic. Damage from Destruction spells doesn't scale with level, meaning they only have damage bonuses from existing or applied weaknesses and there are only perks that make them do 25% or 50% more damage or cheaper and using both hands to cast only does a set bonus. This means that beyond a certain point it CantCatchUp to archery or swordplay. In addition, the Master level spells take up both hands and have an insanely long casting time during which the caster can easily be interrupted by taking a hit, so even dedicated mages will use lower-level spells as their bread and butter.
** Played straight, on the other hand, with Shouts. Completing the main quest gives the player several powerful Shouts, such as the ability to conjure a thunderstorm which strikes everything in a wide radius with lightning or summon a dragon or powerful ghost hero to fight for you. Now it doesn't mean that all these Shouts are "good", it just means they're more powerful. The shout that lets you conjure lighting storm doesn't let you ''choose'' [[AwesomeButImpractical what it strikes]].
30th Oct '16 7:50:13 AM thatother1dude
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* Averted in the ''Franchise/{{Disgaea}}'' series of tactical [=RPGs=], where magic not only scales well with physical attacks, but has massive range and convenient areas of effect, to the extent that extremely high-level parties need never walk more than a few squares away from their starting location to kill everything on the map. Additionally, spells improved in power and range when used frequently, so even the starting spells are useful late in the game.
** In stark contrast to the previous Nippon Ichi game, ''LaPucelle'', which may be the most fighter-centric SRPG ever. The fighters could regenerate their own HP if their HP stat was ground high enough and had special abilities that let them hit large groups of enemies. And the later storyline [=PCs=] didn't get LeakedExperience, so it became a matter of everyone buffs the main character and gets the hell out of her way while she clears the board (they were also good decoys!).
* ''VideoGame/{{Vandal Hearts}}'' averts the trope in that magic-users are just as powerful offensively as melee as long as they're the same level and using the latest powers - in fact, as a lot of later magic spells have {{Area of Effect}}, they can be more powerful than the single-target melee users and consequently level faster. However, played straight in that new spells are only given at certain level waypoints and spells don't scale to the user - so if you're just below the level to get the 7-square-radius [[GameBreaker Phase Shift]], you'll be doing the damage of someone several levels below you whilst melee troops will hit exactly according to their level. This also means that as you get a more powerful (or beneficial) spell, the old ones are never used again - after all, why spend 3mp (out of 40+) on a single target heal for 30hp, when you can heal them and everyone within two spaces of them for 100+hp each for 5mp?
25th Oct '16 11:50:18 AM Ridureyu
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** ''VideoGame/FinalFantasyV'' avoids this to some extent. One of the classes, Mystic Knight, has an ability called Spellblade that infuses the user's weapon with a black magic spell (as long as you've bought it), meaning that it's much easier to hit enemies with spells.

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** ''VideoGame/FinalFantasyV'' makes the search for Holy, Flare, Meteor, and Bahamut Summon spells into part of the endgame plot, firmly tauting them as the end-all be-all spells of their respectie magic types. That said, it avoids this to some extent. One extent, as one of the classes, Mystic Knight, has an ability called Spellblade that infuses the user's weapon with a black magic spell (as long as you've bought it), meaning that it's much easier to hit enemies with spells.
6th Jul '16 1:07:38 PM SpinAttaxx
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* In the ''Franchise/{{Pokemon}}'' games starting with ''[=FireRed=] and [=LeafGreen=]'', there's a move tutor that will teach Water, Grass, or Fire-typed versions of Hyper Beam, but only to the fully-evolved version of your starter {{Mon}}. The last move a Pokémon learns through level-up generally also falls under this, as the level needed to learn it often isn't reached until you're facing the final Gym Leader or the Elite Four, and these moves are often very powerful.

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* In the ''Franchise/{{Pokemon}}'' games starting ''Franchise/{{Pokemon}}'':
** Starting
with ''[=FireRed=] and [=LeafGreen=]'', there's a move tutor that will teach Water, Grass, or Fire-typed versions of Hyper Beam, but only to the fully-evolved version of your starter {{Mon}}. The last move a Pokémon learns through level-up generally also falls under this, as the level needed to learn it often isn't reached until you're facing the final Gym Leader or the Elite Four, and these moves are often very powerful.


Added DiffLines:

** After defeating or catching Kyogre/Groudon in ''[[VideoGame/PokemonRubyAndSapphire Omega Ruby/Alpha Sapphire]]'', the number of Pokémon availiable to catch ''explodes'', in particular [[OlympusMons Legendary Pokémon]], of which ''every one'' in the series (excluding Mythical Pokémon and the Legendaries found in ''VideoGame/PokemonXAndY'') can be caught. The kicker? This happens ''before'' the eighth Gym, meaning there's nothing stopping you from assembling a team of legendaries and [[GameBreaker shattering the rest of the game into pieces]].
4th Jun '16 4:30:03 PM nombretomado
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* ''VideoGame/TalesOfSymphonia'' gave every character (including certain bosses) "Hi-Ougis" or "secret techniques" that could only be accessed towards the end of the game. Well, everybody in the [[NoExportForYou Japan only]] PS2 version at least. Only Lloyd, Collette and Genis have them in the base game.

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* ''VideoGame/TalesOfSymphonia'' gave every character (including certain bosses) "Hi-Ougis" or "secret techniques" that could only be accessed towards the end of the game. Well, everybody in the [[NoExportForYou Japan only]] PS2 [=PS2=] version at least. Only Lloyd, Collette and Genis have them in the base game.
24th Feb '16 1:54:50 PM VeryMelon
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* ''VideoGame/GoldenSun'',

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* ''VideoGame/GoldenSun'', ''VideoGame/GoldenSun'':
24th Feb '16 1:53:58 PM VeryMelon
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* In ''VideoGame/GoldenSun'', the final elemental summons are by far the most powerful moves, although they take a long while to recharge.
** The whole idea of physical attacks beating spells is kind of averted in that game too. Moves like Heatwave and Ragnarok actually do more damage if you equip a good weapon and certain clothing increases elemental power.
*** Indeed. These Elemental Physical Attacks (EPA) were based both on elemental power and your attack stat and were more "skills" than "magic." All unleashes (both from weapons and Djinn) are EPA.
** [[GameBreaker Megiddo]] begs to differ.
** As pointed out by the above, while [=EPAs=] may have been decent in the first game, in the second game you'll get far more mileage out of your physical attacks after about halfway through the game. Doesn't help that it's so easy to get gamebreaking equipment in the second game if you know what you're doing.
*** To clarify: The second game has equipment capable of randomly casting a top-tier spell ''for free''. The first game had a few examples but they were more prevalent towards the end of the second game.

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* In ''VideoGame/GoldenSun'', the ''VideoGame/GoldenSun'',
** The
final elemental summons are by far the most powerful moves, although they take a long while to recharge.
** The whole idea of physical attacks beating spells is kind of averted in that game too. Moves like Heatwave and Ragnarok actually do more damage if you equip a good weapon and certain clothing increases elemental power.
*** Indeed. These
Elemental Physical Attacks (EPA) were based both on elemental power Quick Strike and your attack stat and were more "skills" than "magic." All unleashes (both from weapons and Djinn) Annihilation are EPA.
** [[GameBreaker Megiddo]] begs to differ.
** As pointed out by
the above, while [=EPAs=] may have been decent in the first game, in the second game you'll get far more mileage out of your physical most powerful psynergy attacks after about halfway through to use because their damage comes from multiplying the game. Doesn't help that it's so easy current attack stat. They also require higher than average endgame levels (40 and 31) and 6 Djinn each to get gamebreaking be usuable.
** Weapon Unleashes will become far easier to use the more Unleash chance boosting
equipment in you can find, meaning at least one party member with be able to Unleash 99% of the second game time if you know what you're doing.
*** To clarify: The second
play your cards right. Combine this with certain endgame weapons like Excalibur and Sol Blade in ''VideoGame/GoldenSunTheLostAge'' and your normal attacks start outdamaging even the last game has equipment capable of randomly casting a top-tier spell ''for free''. The first game had a few examples but they were more prevalent towards the end of the second game.summons.
16th Jan '16 6:56:52 AM Vir
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** Somewhat averted in ''VideoGame/FinalFantasyTacticsA2''. Depending on the target, magic or physical attacks might be more effective (against monsters it's usually magic thanks to elemental weaknesses), and since MP always start outs at 0, the LastDiscMagic aren't the higher tier spells themselves, but skills and passive abilities that decrease MP cost or speed up MP recovery.

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** Somewhat averted in ''VideoGame/FinalFantasyTacticsA2''. Depending on the target, magic or physical attacks might be more effective (against monsters it's usually magic thanks to elemental weaknesses), and since MP always start outs at 0, the LastDiscMagic Last Disc Magic aren't the higher tier spells themselves, but skills and passive abilities that decrease MP cost or speed up MP recovery.



** LastDiscMagic is enforced in ''VideoGame/{{Persona 4}}'' with the final few bosses, particularly on NewGamePlus. Most of the final bosses and minibosses have such ridiculous reserves of health that to even dent them you can't use any spell below -dyne grade. Also with skills like Spell Master and gear like the Chakra Robe (both halve the SP cost for all magic skills) and Rudra Robe (the same for physical skills) make it very easy and viable to merely spam spells like Megidolaon (the 'you all now die' button, but can cost up to a quarter of your SP if you are low-levelled) and Agneyastra.
* The original ''VideoGame/{{Persona}}'' also has this with the Ultimate Personae (Messiah and the Tier 3 Personae are examples of Ultimate Personae). However, only a few are actually at the standard of LastDiscMagic. Ra is decent and has [=BossDamage=]/Hieroglyphein, Valzante is OK, and Alfred has some brilliant skills and is generally an EnsembleDarkhorse. However, Mondo is dreadful unless you use him for defense, and Demo is physical (like Mark's original Persona) in a game where physical is awful because of grid-based battle systems. However, if you deviated from canon and took someone else, you could get Darkside, who had a GameBreaker spell, or St. Michael, who had incredibly powerful skills and was immune to almost everything.

to:

** LastDiscMagic Last Disc Magic is enforced in ''VideoGame/{{Persona 4}}'' with the final few bosses, particularly on NewGamePlus. Most of the final bosses and minibosses have such ridiculous reserves of health that to even dent them you can't use any spell below -dyne grade. Also with skills like Spell Master and gear like the Chakra Robe (both halve the SP cost for all magic skills) and Rudra Robe (the same for physical skills) make it very easy and viable to merely spam spells like Megidolaon (the 'you all now die' button, but can cost up to a quarter of your SP if you are low-levelled) and Agneyastra.
* The original ''VideoGame/{{Persona}}'' also has this with the Ultimate Personae (Messiah and the Tier 3 Personae are examples of Ultimate Personae). However, only a few are actually at the standard of LastDiscMagic.Last Disc Magic. Ra is decent and has [=BossDamage=]/Hieroglyphein, Valzante is OK, and Alfred has some brilliant skills and is generally an EnsembleDarkhorse. However, Mondo is dreadful unless you use him for defense, and Demo is physical (like Mark's original Persona) in a game where physical is awful because of grid-based battle systems. However, if you deviated from canon and took someone else, you could get Darkside, who had a GameBreaker spell, or St. Michael, who had incredibly powerful skills and was immune to almost everything.
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