This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Working Title: Jesus Saves: From YKTTW
Ouroboros: This page is a bloody mess, is someone going to clean this up? God knows I don't have the time, or the will, but it needs to be done.
Grev: Sorry, gotta put these somewhere:
- ...but everyone else takes full damage!
- ...but Gretzky puts in the rebound!
- ...so get your Jesus Christ Shopper's Card today!
I can't believe I forgot Jesus, Take the Wheel.
Filby: You forgot "...but George Nelson withdraws!"
"In God we trust, all others pay cash!"
Sunder The Gold: I feel that a bit of hostile bias (or just irresponsible spite) is slipping in a few times.
- Yeah, probably. As I mentioned in the YKTTW that I'm not the most unbiased author for this one, and if someone else wants to make it more, uh, NPOV, they were welcome to do so (not that such an invitation is required). So be bold, or somesuch.
- Every other book in the 'spiritual' section of the bookstore.//
- You'd think. And yet. (No, I haven't read every other book in the spiritual section of your bookstore. It could be different. It could be phrased better.)
- Obviously, two trains arrive: one just on time for each man. Now, if they're both interviewing for the same position, and both pray to get it, God will obviously pick His favorite. (Just like sports teams. God has won the office betting pool for two thousand years running. This is a source of some discord in the heavenly hierarchy, and some theologians even place it as the root cause of Lucifer's rebellion.) //
- You'd think. And yet. (No, I haven't read every other book in the spiritual section of your bookstore. It could be different. It could be phrased better.)
- No. It's really natter, and belongs on the talk page. Thanks for putting it here.
- Left Behind. Need we say more? All right: Jesus as a Weapon of Mass Destruction, Glorious Appearing.//
- Well, the Left Behind page goes into a lot more depth, and it's pretty obvious after reading it how the trope fits in. And in my view, it definitely fits in—the books don't just demonstrate this trope, they revel in it. They *are* it.
Sunder The Gold: I must apologize. I came across this article long after I should have been in bed, and the elements of hostility colored my perception of the whole page, which is itself a hot topic for me. But, I should have been more patient, and more graceful in my edits. Only the natter part really needed to be removed, along with the unflattering remarks next to the Left Behind link.
But I'd like to know: What "usually necessitates a Writer on Board"? The whole trope, or just the subversions by anti-religious writers?
Lale: Whoever wrote this (or put the main section in its current state) missed the point behind the Christian concept of faith. We don't have faith for the sake of having faith. We have faith because of Christ's sacrifice paying the price for our sins. Thanks to His loving sacrifice, restitution like doing good works or sacrificing lambs and goats is no longer necessary as long as you have faith in Him — "faith" as in "trust," not just "belief." The point of how we are saved through faith comes from how doing good works or obeying the Ten Commandments to the letter is not necessary to be saved.Who did the research?
This page looks to me like a mockery of Christianity by someone who's complaining because requesting faith is intolerant and too much to ask. Why change it, though? This site is littered with comments to the same effect.
Hydro Globus: I believe it's rather a mockery of Jack Chick tracts and similar critical research failures - what we are indeed quite prone to do. I think we made this name for ourselves, but remember Jn 13:35. We will not be known for not doing the research, or endlessly claiming that everyone else will go to Hell if they don't repent right after an Easy Evangelism or burning any non-believers. Also, don't forget, this is the Television Tropes Wiki, the article is written from that viewpoint (how Jesus' work appears on the TV or other media).
Pavlov: Moved the religious natter from the Pete Townsend item here for safe keeping.
- Simple. Answer no to both.
- So, what, the train is neither on time nor late? Does it crash and never get there at all? And if so, what sort of loving God would arrange something like that?
- Neither on time nor late... obviously it's early, thus screwing both men over. Or, in a more effective third option, it's late, but only by just enough for Man A to reach it, and not enough for Man B's delay to hurt him. Or God clears up the traffic Man A is stuck in. Seriously, God of all beings would know how to Take a Third Option.
- What sort of loving God? You act as if God has done the worst thing in the world by denying either men of their jobs. In such a situation the two mens' absence might allow for a third and forth man to get jobs that they might need to feed their families. That's the error in this scenario: It doesn't take into account that there are other parties that are relying on God too. When you're dealing with an omnipotent being of unmeasurable power, anything and everything comes with a For Want Of A Nail effect.
- How does For Want Of A Nail apply to an omnipotent being? An omnipotent being should be able to completely disregard For Want Of A Nail because ... well, he's omnipotent, he can do anything.
- Except that as a omnipotent being he can anything through whatever method he wants. So even the smallest effect he has on one guy can indirectly influence someone across the world. the For Want Of A Nail effect isn't a restriction, it's a method by which he can get things done. Any inconvenience one experiences might indirectly lead to another's salvation. Indeed, if God truly wanted the two men in this situation to get their jobs events would have transpired leading up to the deadline that would have caused the first man to get stuck in traffic in the first place. Or he might not get the job and then find one the next week that's even better. Or the second man's interview is actually scheduled the next day, so the mens' goals do not conflict. The main issue with the question is that there are only two thing's God is allowed to do: Make the train late or make it on time. What kind of God can only manipulate train arrival times and nothing else? Not an omnipotent one. Omnipoentance is unlimited power, and this question has somehow limited God's power to choice A or B. Doe!
- Simple. Answer no to both.
