This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Jack Slack: I've put Tim Schafer back in. (I also corrected the spelling mistake of his last name in there.) I agree with the previous edit to remove my comment; without sales numbers it was too early to say. But the numbers are in, and it sold 215,000 copies. For a game with a powerful marketing push, that was disappointing. This was meant to be Schafer's breakout hit, and it didn't happen. Like it or not, he's now being perceived in new ways. Before, he was a visionary game creator. Now? He's a niche game creator. Or worse, a good writer and a lousy game developer. That's the very definition of Fallen Creator.
Jack Slack: And ... it's been deleted again. Terminus Est 13, really? Look at the public perception. Forums across the net are buzzing with the dissatisfaction. Sales were disappointing. Yes, there were some positive reviews, even from good outlets. (The Onion AV Club is a good outlet.) But if you're not spotting the backlash beginning against Schafer, you're blind. ps. No, I won't put it back in. I'm not going to bother having an edit war over this.
Rebochan: It's a terrible example because the reviews were good - not like Psychonauts, but good. The sales were lower than expected, but the one-month sales of Brutal Legend were more than the lifetime sales of Pscyhonauts - so while it didn't turn into the breakout hit EA wanted, Schafer still topped his last game. The "backlash" is mostly from a very small but vocal group of people, plus a gaming press with the attention span of a pixie-stick snorting ferret that overhypes every high and low humanly possible.
Jack Slack: A small but vocal group of people? I dispute that. The game is dead on Xbox live, just try to get a game. And this is for a game that was intended as primarily multiplayer. Groups who previously had praised Schafer's writing are now shifting to condemning his poor game design. The perception has shifted. That said, you make good points. I'd argue he's shakier than he was, but it's probably too early to say Fallen Creator. But I still say he's heading that way.
Rebochan: I took out the Miyamoto entry because it was lacking the crucial "Fallen" part of "Fallen" creator. He's at the most successful part of his career, he's making more money and critical acclaim than he ever has in his life , and really, the only people that rag on him are the self-proclaimed "hardcore gamers", which have *always* ragged on Nintendo and Miyamoto for being too "kiddy".
If his move into experimental gaming was representing a downfall, say they bombed in the sales or the critics lamented how far Miyamoto had fallen or something, that would qualify. But it's kind of hard to take the guy the industry still adores and admires and sings the praises of and claim he's a Fallen Creator just because there's a vocal segment of gaming that loathes the mere existence of Nintendogs, a game that is widely credited for selling millions of Nintendo DS's on its own merits.
Eric DVH: Especially as he's since presided over universally lauded titles like New Super Mario Bros., Twilight Princess, Hourglass, Brawl, Galaxy, Paper Mario, and Mario Kart. Just remember that the stupid games he's made were targetted at stupid people, and that his good work (for us) has still continued improving.
Rebochan: Removed the following:
- It would appear that Joss Whedon is heading towards this arc. Back when Buffy The Vampire Slayer was still on the air, he had a devoted swarm of fans... and then he decided to concentrate more on Angel and Season Six lost most of them. He brought many of them back with Firefly. However, since Serenity and Dr Horribles Sing Along Blog, Joss has earned a reputation as a Wangst-loving fool who doesn't know how to create tension any way other than pointlessly offing characters. His comic book work is getting heavily criticized, too.
Because even if Joss Whedon is getting a reputation for killing off characters people like, his reputation hasn't sunk for it. Dr. Horrible has been an unmitigated critical and commercial success even if not everyone was satisfied with the ending, and Serenity is praised by most including those upset by the deaths of certain characters. If he had stopped at Buffy Season Six, he would definitely qualify. He didn't. He's still beloved by many and he's more successful than ever. Let's see how Dollhouse does before we need to consider the label for him.
The Insomniac: And what exactly is this heavy criticism that his comics are getting? Other than the Schedule Slip issues, the fact that people don't like his work on Runaways, and the Buffy/Satsu thing, I haven't really seen any backlash over Joss's work.
Vertelemming: Aaaand now we've seen how Dollhouse did; horrifically. Add to that that despite getting some fan praise and critical reviews, Serenity was such a commercial flop it didn't even make back the cost of its own budget until the DVD release. I vote on returning Joss to the list.
- Rebochan: After Dollhouse, yea, I'd say so. Serenity isn't much of proof of his failures, just that his work seems to always have cult appeal and little to show for themselves beyond their large fandoms. But Dollhouse seems to be what really killed the cult fandom too.
Eric DVH: Uh� Britney Spears? She was _never_ seen as a talented artist, just as a side of meat up on Disney's butcher block like Christina Aguilara, Hilary Duff, Hannah Montana, etc� Sure, her downfall was unusually messy, but it shouldn't be in this article. Maybe Creator Breakdown as a real stretch.
Rebochan: She was incredibly popular in her hey day. Come on, Michael Jackson was popular even though he easily had as many detractors at the height of his fame as Britney did. But she was one of the top selling artists in the world at the height of her fame, she could sell out arenas at the drop of a hat, and millions upon millions of teeny-boppers bought her merchandise unquestioned. There was a time, by the way, that Rolling Stone absolutely loved her, put her on their covers, and praised her musical output. You don't have to like her - I never got her appeal either. But I won't lie about her success. And if Miley Cyrus takes a plunge like this, yes, she'd count as a Fallen Creator as well, and I hate Hannah Montana way more than I ever hated Britney Spears.
Dragon Quest Z: This is not about having a more extreme Tough Act to Follow.
Rebochan: Indeed - it's about a creator's entire career. Most of the people on here had a long series of successes before. Though, looking over the list, we should probably bop a few of the examples over there if it's only one success they had. Not sure why this popped up on the cutlist.
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: the troper who put it there thought it was redundant. I don't think this should be cut, but perhaps the distinction between this and Tough Act to Follow should be made sharper. Tough Act to Follow is when an author loses prestige because his later works aren't like his earlier works, regardless of merit. Fallen Creator is when an author loses prestige because he deserves to lose prestige, because his works have not just changed quality, but also declined in quality. The line is blurry because of the nature of They Changed It, Now It Sucks!, but it is there.
Rebochan: That makes sense. It can be fixed.
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: I did refine the description a little before they decided to save the page...
Rebochan: Man, you guys are good. I went to amend the Lucas Arts entry for the new Monkey Island games and somebody already, like a ninja, came in and added the addendum.
Rebochan: I was doing a little cleanup and noticed that someone added a comment that Nintendo forced the Virtual Boy out to market early. First I've heard of that. I wouldn't really be that surprised, but since it's linking to two other tropes related to that subject and neither of them discuss it, is there some way to get more info on it?
((Patrick)): Would someone like to offer some justification on why this keeps getting deleted?
- It would appear that Joss Whedon is heading towards this arc. Back when Buffy The Vampire Slayer was still on the air, he had a devoted swarm of fans... and then he decided to concentrate more on Angel and Season Six lost most of them. He brought many of them back with Firefly. However, since Serenity and Dr Horribles Sing Along Blog, Joss has earned a reputation as a Wangst-loving fool who doesn't know how to create tension any way other than pointlessly offing characters. His comic book work is getting heavily criticized, too.
Trogga: Didn't you see the disagreeing natter?
- Um, what? Dr. Horrible was a bigger success than anyone thought possible. And then there's Dollhouse, overcoming tremendous odds to get a second season...
Patrick: I did. Dr. Horrible is contributing to that Fallen Creator status, and as the lukewarm reception of Dollhouse among Whedon fans. I was in favor of letting the objections stand in contrast to the orignal post. Maybe the opinion isn't universal but I have seen a number of statements on this very site about Whedon and his over-relance on angst. And I'm a die-hard Whedon fan myself.
Rebochan: Sorry, but while I'm seeing a small faction of his fandom that thinks he's Angsty, it's not translating to an actual commercial and critical decline overall.
Patrick: Then I humbly request that a Troper Tales section be added to this article. ^_^.
theweirdwarrior: I humbly second this request.
Spawn of Kong: Is it too soon to add Roman Polanski, or does he simply not qualify?
Rebochan: Tricky. His films are still critically acclaimed (he won several O Scars for The Pianist), but they're always overshadowed by the controversy of his personal life and his legal problems. His public image also seems to change depending on the country.
I've known about Polanski's controversies for quite a while (since the 70's). To me, it's more like overdue for an example.
Gyrobot: On Aya Hirano, no it was not to bash Endless Eight, it was just most notable of her falls. I will be content with just Dragonaut to be frank. It was more about her getting less work than before
Charred Knight: She's a Voice Actress, you can't possibly blame her for the crappyness of an anime, a polished turd is still a turd. Also she's always been in moe shows so I don't see how her recent work has anything to do with it. As for getting less work that's because she's doing other work other than anime like having her own tv show, and modeling.
{{takashi.0}}: Could we please remove the page quote on George Lucas? The Star Wars FanDumb already has enough of a foothold here.
{{takashi.0}}: Thank you, I figured I should've asked first.
Rebochan: I have to admit, while I had the volatile reactions to George Lucas in mind when I launched this (and I even thought of naming it after him), I don't think this trope definition really covers him anymore. Yea, people do REALLY hate his guts, but he's still really successful and outside the internet, most people respect him. There's a large number of people that aren't on this page or got pulled from it that are on the same level of "falling" as he is. If there's no objections, I'd like to just dump his entry all together.
Dragon Quest Z: I don't see this trope excluding a past tense. Just amend the example. But it should still be noted that a lot of the most vocal Star Wars fans do have a problem (not claiming I'm either one, just that they are around).
Rebochan Well, the rub is that it's not a fandom trope. There needs to be more objective things to go on, like plummeting fortunes or review scores. That's the only reason I'm questioning whether he should remain.
Arcadiarika: Is it too early to put, say, Ali Larter on the list? Praised for her performances in Final Destination, Jay And Silent Bob Strike Back, and the like. Now that she's on Heroes, people criticize her acting, and her recent string of flops that include Marigold, Resident Evil: Extinction, and Obsessed, to me, signifies her status. And now she's nominated for a Razzie. Or am I calling it out too early, like I said?
Rebochan: I have to admit she fell off my radar, but yea, at this point I'd say she's hit this. And well...that would be why. Heroes seems to have been the height of her success, though she's always sort of hung around movies of, at best, mediocre caliber and criticism about her acting pretty consistent through much of her career.
Arcadiarika: 'K, thanks. I figured that I would ask first before possibly putting it into the page. Had I not asked first, it would have sounded like Complaining About an Actress I No Longer Like Anymore. Again, thank you.
Robster2001: It is so tempting to reserve a place under Jay Leno's entry for Conan O'Brien. I mean, isn't he fated for this trope? His run on NBC has been built up to the point that whatever he does next, wherever he does it, is doomed to underwhelm the mass audience. Anyway, I just wanted to put this here, today, February 7, 2010, so I have a valid "Told You So" later. :)
