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Main Fallen Creator Discussion

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IlGreven
Topic
02:25:02 PM Nov 11th 2010
And again, cutter: there are a boatload of links to this page, made because it'd be a pain to directly point to the Darth Wiki page. Cutting this doesn't redirect them all to the Darth Wiki page...it turns them all red.
Rebochan
05:50:35 PM Feb 13th 2011
Bumping this because it's on the cutlist again. Guys, this is just a redirect link. Cutting it causes more problems.
nuclearneo577
05:56:33 PM Feb 13th 2011
But we are never allowed to link to this.
Rebochan
06:28:55 PM Feb 13th 2011
edited by Rebochan
Yes you are. The link just redirects to the Darth Wiki.

Elaboration: There are times it's kosher to talk about these, such as on YMMV pages.
FastEddie
Topic
11:52:22 AM Mar 17th 2010
Took out the examples altogether. No point to it. It is all subjective and there is nothing positive to be gained by having them.
173.66.210.46
08:19:48 PM Apr 2nd 2010
edited by 173.66.210.46
I disagree. I don't think Fallen Creator has reached the point Dis Continuity did, where people were posting their own personal discontinuities instead of writing about things that a LARGE number of fans refused to accept in their personal canon.

For the most part, it was pretty accurate, talking of people who were once very highly regarded, but then had a big flop or something happened that negatively affected public perception of them. Rob Reiner, Don Bluth, and a number of other film directors are examples of the former. Tom Cruise, Axl Rose, and Britney Spears are examples of the latter.

I'd say the approach to this trope should be the same approach that was taken with Dis Continuity: only include examples that large portions of people tend to agree on. Most people agree on the above examples, as well as Frank Miller and John Byrne, so they can stay.

But really, this trope page didn't have the problems that, say, the Deader Than Disco page has had. Really, people were missing the point and adding in anything that wasn't as popular as before, even if it hadn't fallen so far that people were embarrassed to admit they liked it. See the Deader Than Disco discussion page for more details.

Anyway, I think the examples of Fallen Creator should go back in. Most of them, at least, tried to be fair and impartial, and accurately reflected public opinion rather than just the opinion of the one who added the example.
AnonymousMcCartneyfan
09:05:35 PM Apr 2nd 2010
I also believe the examples should be restored. We want to keep Examplectomies to a minimum. And yes, if they are restored, the rule of fandom consensus should be in play...

The point to the examples is to give concrete illustrations of the general concept of the trope.
FastEddie
09:49:30 PM Apr 2nd 2010
It's all negative. Everyone on the list will (and did) attract some defender.

Once again, there is nothing positive to be gained by having the examples here. They just attract people who think bile is funny and people who disagree with them.
173.66.210.46
02:06:47 PM Apr 3rd 2010
edited by 173.66.210.46
Fast Eddie, Mc Cartneyfan sees the point of the examples where you do not. If you're going to remove examples from THIS trope, then you might as well remove examples from the following tropes:

Deader Than Disco

Small Name, Big Ego

Dropped a Bridge on Him

Dis Continuity

They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot (that one's already labelled Subjective)

Character Derailment

And so on, and so forth. Where will it end?

Mc Cartneyfan is right. Tropes need examples to give concrete illustrations of the trope's general concept. And not just one or two examples. Several examples.

Fallen Creator is like some of the tropes I mentioned above (though last I checked, only Deader Than Disco and Small Name, Big Ego were suffering from Flanderization) in the fact that some of them might attract defenders, but examples are needed anyway. And, like Dis Continuity AFTER its overhaul, it was relatively free of a troper's own personal opinions and stuck basically to the 'rule of fandom consensus'.

I think it's generally agreed that the following creators are, as far as public opinion is concerned, not seen to be as great as they were years ago: George Lucas, Frank Miller, Britney Spears, M. Night Shmayalan, and John Byrne (Lucas, Miller, and Shmayalan due to flops, Spears and Byrne due to their other antics). So those examples stay. I don't think Fallen Creator has had the same problem Dis Continuity had a year ago.

I also don't think it's had the problem Small Name, Big Ego has had. Some of the 'names' listed as examples there aren't all that small. But that's a discussion for THAT page's discussion page. The point is, I don't think the Example Sectionectomy was needed, nor was it desired by most people.

So put the examples back already. For the record, I'm not one of those people who thinks bile is inherently funny, and I believe the Fallen Creator page is more use with examples than without them.
173.66.210.46
02:16:34 PM Apr 3rd 2010
Wait. I just came up with a compromise. Fast Eddie, if you think this page is nothing more than an excuse for bile, then don't remove the examples. Just recategorize it as Darth Wiki. It's already happened to things like So Bad Its Horrible (which was already considered Subjective unless I'm mistaken).
Rebochan
10:31:56 AM Apr 9th 2010
Heh, sorry I didn't post on this. I feel that since I made the trope, I should have said something. I've been working on a master's for the last 9 months so I have a lot less time to contribute to the site.

For what it's worth, my idea of the trope was to comment on the strange twists of fate that can make people go from worshiping George Lucas as their personal deity to cursing his name. I deliberately tried to include other examples like Don Bluth that people still like. I also tried to guide it when I had more time to keep examples from simply complaining about people they don't like to easily chronicled cases with objective facts backing them up - for example, it's hard to disagree that Michael Jackson used to be well regarded but the pedophilia accusations completely derailed his life.

I'm not sure the page is Darth Wiki worthy, but if people feel that it really needs to be there in order to maintain examples, I agree with the move.
Tuvok
Topic
06:27:55 PM Mar 16th 2010
  • Okay, I am not Average Whendon fan. I enjoy his work but don't think he is the best out their. I do have issue with him added to the Fallen Creator bit. He is still popular, haven't seen any real evidence of any critical or fan loss. His work is still highly regarded...isn't this page for Fallen Creators. He hasn't fell, work is still critically praised by fans and critics. It just doesn't stay on air.
Then being said I still have issue with the man, the Karmic Houdini of Wes in Angel. Boyd being the big bad. Dusku in Dollhouse for the sex appeal even if everyone else could out act her. The angst, I really have issues regarding that. That being said, For him to be a Fallen Creator it has to be generally agreed his work has faltered. It hasn't. Shrug, so yeah really don't think he needs to be added here. Is there a section for Angst Whore?
124.254.80.117
03:03:47 AM Mar 17th 2010
edited by 124.254.80.117
I've seen a different picture myself. Lots of people complaining about his repetitive characters and story choices, regular complaints about how his writing has gotten worse as time goes on. It may be arguable that he's *fallen*, but he's definitely heading in that direction, and has done so in a decently large group of people's eyes. Unless he suddenly turns around and makes a show called Joss Whedon Kills Beloved Characters For The Hell Of It you'll probably never kill off the — admittedly, relatively large — group of core fans, and even then you'd probably have people defending him. Even so, it's easy to find people who loved his early work and won't touch his later stuff with an electrified ten foot pole.

Edited to Add: It's this part of the Fallen Creator trope in particular that makes me think Joss has a place here.

  • Not everyone goes from the very top to the very bottom. Those old franchises still make a lot of money. There's usually just enough people willing to watch your new stuff that you can still be considered commercially successful, even if they're also treating it as Snark Bait. But the love is gone, and your flaws are now constantly on display. The acclaim and hyper-success has dropped, and a once solid and large fanbase is now far less likely to be happy with you.
63.117.121.41
10:23:50 AM Mar 17th 2010
Define "large group". Whedonesque is still as active as ever.
Zeke
Topic
01:12:13 AM Mar 12th 2010
I'm removing this because it's so very, VERY much too soon to tell:
  • Jay Leno. After taking The Tonight Show back from Conan O'Brien, he's become a pariah in the comedic world, with fellow comedians Rosie O'Donnell, Howard Stern, and Jimmy Kimmel, among others, expressing their intense dislike of the man. Kimmel even had the chutzpah to do this on Leno's own show.
And since I'm on a talk page anyway, two observations. One, if those are the people speaking ill of you, you're doing okay. Two, linking Kimmel's stunt to C Mo A is almost as inappropriate as the stunt itself was. You don't take an offer to be someone's guest and then ambush them, no matter how justified you think you are. (And yes, that absolutely goes for Stewart and Colbert's respective bait-and-switch stunts.)
MatthewTheRaven
06:40:25 PM Mar 16th 2010
Seriously, people don't like him at all. He's fallen far from grace in most commedian's eyes for his dickish behavior.

And I don't know why you're bringing up Stewart and Colbert, because everyone either a) knows what they're getting into when they talk to them or b) is unable to function in polite society.
173.66.210.46
Topic
06:51:44 PM Mar 10th 2010
edited by 173.66.210.46
Random Troper: I was tempted to remove the following entry, but decided not to:

  • James Robinson has written some of DC's most classic stories, from the epic post-WW 2 tale The Golden Age to the superhero magnum opus Starman. But upon his return to comics in 2008 after a lengthy break, his writing seemed...off. For a while, it was generally greeted with indifference and snark, and he did have some well-received comics. But his debut on DC's Justice League property, "A Cry for Justice" has quickly been greated with the biggest Internet Backdraft in recent memory, particularly relating to the maiming of Red Arrow and the murder of his daughter. Even many people who were enjoying his Superman run up until this point were horrified by just how bad this miniseries was, and it seems likely he'll Never Live It Down.

The reason I was tempted to remove it is because the comic in question only came out a week or so ago. It might be too soon to label him a Fallen Creator. Only time will tell if he'll recover.

Besides, Paul Dini and Tony Bedard weren't considered to fall into this trope because of Countdown to Final Crisis. Of course, that was an editorially-mandated story.

I'm keeping the entry in, but really, I think we should 'wait and see' before truly declaring James Robinson a Fallen Creator.