This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Anon: At what point should be it be considered to split this into sub pages? When the scroll bar is the height of around three quarters stackrd it seems about that time.
Cidolfas: Removed this from the Resident Evil 5 example:
- Much of the hilarity here comes from the fact that Resident Evil 4 was basically the same thing with Spaniards, and no one batted an eye.
- That's because they're aren't exactly endemic stereotypes about Spain being a hotbed of violence and primitive behavior.
- Of course, one could accuse them of being racist considering there's been over five previous games where you kill hordes of white zombies. Aren't double standards grand?
- That's because there aren't exactly endemic stereotypes about England/America/other primarily white countries being hotbeds of violence and primitive behavior.
- Much of the hilarity here comes from the fact that Resident Evil 4 was basically the same thing with Spaniards, and no one batted an eye.
Too much talky-talky. In any case, the whole thing is a Wall Banger - they can make a game about killing hordes of zombies of every race on earth except Africans, simply because there's an existing stereotype about them? Does that mean Africans are demonstrably less violent or primitive than every other race on earth?
John Darc: I just want to say, wouldn't Firefly being meddled with be also a somewhat positive thing? Originally Mal was gonna be a tortured soul. The execs forced him to be jolly and fun, and I certainly loved the other 13 episodes.
Fanra: I removed:
- ->"We're going to make some toast. But we're not going to use ANY of this fucking bread!" "We'll make it with coyote fur instead." "No, no, use the clay and snakeskin." "Seal the deal. Seal the deal!"
This troper and some friends, on the subject of Mort's producers wanting to lose "The Death Angle"
From the top of the article. I have no idea why anyone thought it belonged there.
Mr Death: Because it's about Executive Meddling, by way of analogy. I personally think it's very indicative of what executive meddling boils down to: Interfering with a good, proven thing because you think you know better.
Skulle: Why is "Nuff said" about executive meddling in Andromeda? I've seen the show and I was hoping to learn what kind of executive meddling it was subjected to. Can someone please provide a better entry? Frankly, "nuff said" assumes previous knowledge and thus adds nothing to the article.
Zeke: Quite right. I'll expand the entry. [ETA: Done.]
Red Shoe: Can anyone come up with an example of Executive Meddling having good results? I mean, it's fun to insult network execs for making stupid decisions and all, but it seems like they ought to do right some times. I mean, these folks are professions after all. And networks are a business. After fifty or so years, you'd think they'd avoid doing the same dumb things over and over again.
Gus: Very good question! Every show that you have ever liked was green-lit by an executive. Oftentimes, this required an uphill battle on the part of the development exec that could only be described as epic,bloody and heroic.
The problem arises from there being two sets of critieria for "success"; all the aesthetic elements that go into "critical" success and the audience size and composition that make up commercial success. The examples given for harmful meddling all seem to do with adjustments that are brought into play to try to better fit the latter set at the expense of the former.
The hard fact is that going further creatively is very difficult to do without narrowing the audience.* A case can be made that adjustments brought in by execs to expand an audience can and do succeed, by the second set of criteria. The problem is, you end up with a bunch of reality and games shows in all but the rarest cases. Some of those rare cases:
M*A*S*H: Network requests for a retool, coupled with some decisions to leave on the parts of some actors, resulted in an artistic success that also grew the audience.
The Sopranos: The possibly apocryphal story circulates that David Chase's second season guidance to the series' writers was simply "Get ugly."
BuffyTheVampireSlayer: The WB Network not only acquiesced to but encouraged making the series more arc-based, even though Whedon had been thinking in terms of an anthology-like structure in the first season.
There may be more examples...
* The all-time most successful scripted show is, sadly, Beverly Hillbillies, possibly one of the "dumb-downed-est" shows every produced, which ran a 60 share for three straight years. Of course, there were only three channels then. Those days are just plain gone.
Ununnilium: There are smart executives and dumb TV producers/writers/directors/et cetera. But people don't tend to get attached to shows that have dumb creators, no matter how smart the people in the company are. And if there's a smart executive and a smart creator, hey, that's just fine. So we only really *notice* when dumb executives and smart creators collide.
Pteryx: I can think of two times when it wasn't Executive Meddling, but the ceasing thereof that caused problems — the Star Wars prequels and The Matrix sequels. The original movie(s) were good because of a combination of good creative teams and just the right amount of Executive Meddling to say no to the stupid stuff; the later stuff, OTOH, was the result of the executives deciding that it was going to sell anyway and giving the creators too much slack because of this.
Ununnilium: This itself could be a trope — Editorial Magnifying?
Seth Added a screen cap from the Orange Film Funding Board trailers where they always mangle the pitched idea for product placement. Thought it fit pretty well. I'm now trying to think of a good quote. I'm thinking something like "Thats a great idea but what we need is..."
Never mind i have found a great quote.
- Krusty: Folks, I've been in showbiz for sixty-one years, but now these jerks have sucked all the fun out of it. I don't need twelve suits tellin' me which way to pee!Male Executive: Uh, for "pee," could you substitute "whiz"?Female Executive: I don't know, that could upset the Cheez Whiz people.Male Executive: I was just thinking that.Krusty: I can't take it anymore!
Ununnilium: I don't know if the Legion Of Super Heroes example counts. It seems to me like they're being intentionally subtle with it, possibly to keep the Superman elements from overcoming the Legion ones. Also, and more to the point, I haven't heard of any Super-embargo imposed from above. Has anyone else?
Later: Since nobody commented, pulling this out:
- In a case similar to the "Bat-embargo," the animated Legion Of Super Heroes seems to be trying to tell Superman stories without actually naming any parts of the mythos besides Supes himself—in fact, the character is a teenager, taken to the future for some adventures before he leaves home for the first time. So far we've had a black containment sphere containing an unnamed green rock, then a character babbling that "Green Rocks kill the Last Son. There's red, blue, gold, purple..." Also, a character whose powers and molecular structure make him Superman's Evil Twin has a prominent "Z" on his chest, was born in the (not named as such, of course) Phantom Zone, and hears his father's voice in his head. And let's not forget Alexis, a genius scientist/inventor whose personal logo is a square formed from two "L"'s. At first she's friends with Superman, but she turns against him. He saves her from an explosion, but her hair falls out. In the end she has dedicated herself to the Legion's destruction. You didn't think it was possible to tell a Superman story without the words "Krypton," "Zod," or "Luthor," did you?
Randallw: what about the movie "Enemy Mine". theres a link from the "Enemy mine" page that hints to, but doesn't explain, the fact that an executive had trouble with the movie's name, unless they put the Mine the enemy ran in it.
Dragon Hawk: "Standards and Practices". They're kind of like an institutionalized, formal version of Executive Meddling. Should it simply be defined here, on this page, or created on a page of its own and linked? They definitely have a lot in common, but the tone of "Executive Meddling" seems to be one of a more individual thing — some random executive(s) decided to "help" by changing things, sometimes for indiscernible reasons, and sometimes by surprise. S&P, on the other hand, is always there, and thus rarely a surprise. It's a formal requirement, and writers know they'll have to get past it. Kind of like the difference between navigating known dangerous water, and running aground on uncharted reef.
Fast Eddie: Standards And Practices is definitely a separate article.
Filby: Moved The Land Before Time 'cause it was by Don Bluth (IIRC), not Disney. Just saying in case anyone wonders why.
Looney Toons: I reverted The Editor's recent change to the Star Trek Uhura example because I entered it initially, and I was quoting directly from a recorded interview with Roddenberry that I have. If The Editor has an equally definitive source to support his change, I will gladly yield, understanding that my source stands a good chance of having been bowdlerized by Roddenberry as he told the story. But lacking that, any such change is mere speculation.
The Editor: I was going by what was circulating through the Aussie Star Trek club some time back. Apparently, "nigger" was used - although it's often Bowdlerized to "Negress" or just "her" in mixed company.
Some Guy: Well, it's that time again. This article is really starting to grow to an ungodly size.
HeartBurn Kid: Is it just me, or does the stuff about the furry image boards not really fit in here?
Janitor: Trimmed it down. Some of the furry text was just making a case on one side of a controversy. Also pulled the image, as the article was being pushed below the fold.
Ununnilium: Honestly, I don't see how any of this image-board stuff is this trope.
HeartBurn Kid: Axed:
- In all fairness, the current wrestling lineup, ECW, tends toward the overtly supernatural, far beyond the propensity other WWE shows have. Vampires, demons, and boogeymen of all sorts are commonplace, as are things that should simply kill a person when inflicted upon them, again, beyond even the normal WWE propensity.
Because 1) it's an unneeded Justifying Edit, and 2) it's not entirely true. There has been 2 vampires (who were portrayed as creepy psycho goth blooddrinkers, not as undead beings with immense supernatural powers) and 1 boogeyman (whose whole backstory is based on him being a character actor from an aborted UPN series who got waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too into his character — again, nothing supernatural here), and they weren't even on the show at the same time. And then there's the ECW Zombie, but that was a Take That! gag to the Sci-Fi channel.
"In fact, Sally's death was, itself, the result of Executive Meddling. Since the mini-series based on the character sold poorly, Sega decided that the character wasn't popular enough, and asked that she be killed off. When fans reacted poorly to her death, Sega then asked Archie to rewrite the ending they had asked for."
The above statement is false. The writer himself has stated that he intended to kill her off and have a robotic duplicate take her place, unbeknownst to the readers, as a plot twist to be revealed later. SEGA of America demanded otherwise in case they wanted to use her in marketing. This sounds suspiciously like the SEGA conspiracy theory FanDumb that used to dominate discussion of the Sonic comic before it was debunked years ago.
On the topic of Reboot, I watched the scene involving the liferraft and could not see "BS&P" on the gun. But it IS on the liferaft produced. In fact, it reads "B.S. 'n P Approved". [1] indeed. I think this one speaks for itself.
Ununnilium: In their defense, the character interactions with the "space hooker' are actually quite interesting. Showing the episodes out of order is probably what killed the series.
- Poor thing. It's only got a huge fanbase and had a movie made about it.
First half Justifying Edit, second half pure fail. I mean Conversation In The Main Page.
- Millennium was apparently the subject of so much Executive Meddling from the Broadcast Standards and Practices that series writer Darin Morgin parodied him in the episode "Somehow, Satan Got Behind Me," with a segment about how a demon drives a Broadcast Standards & Practices guy insane (by making him see a dancing demon baby — I Am Not Making This Up). This eventually results in the hilarious line, "You will not get away with this! The final scene is gratuitously violent! Aliens would not carry an Uzi! They are a superior race and they would not carry or utilize automatic weapons! I will not approve this! I am Broadcast Standards and Practices!"
Standards And Practices, not this trope. Could someone move it over please, it's 2 AM here. @@
- Here's a odd one! How about outside Executive Meddling? It a lawsuit claims a show is similar to their own. The "Gobots" owners claimed the "Mighty Orbots" were base on the "Gobots". This why, "Mighty Orbots" lasted one season.
Not this trope either.
- The Stinger for the second season finale of Transformers Animated was suddenly interrupted and unintelligble in the first broadcast in Canada. The American broadcast wasn't as bad (it's only part of it, and you can still hear them), and it was restored in the reairing.
...so where's the meddling?
- It's unknown how much was Executive Meddling and how much was plain old hype, but Fable was initially announced with a Shakespearean sonnet's worth of features that either didn't make it into the final cut, or hardly resembled what was promised. The outrage over this was so enormous, in fact, that Lionhead Studios designer Peter Molyneux actually had to issue a public, online apology for the incident. And yet, they don't learn their lesson, as similar hyped-up claims are being made about the game's sequel. (This time it might deliver, though. Please, please, let it deliver.) What effectively happened here is that the designers had very big plans for the game, but eventually realised they had neither the time nor the budget to carry those plans out.
- The same can be said about Mortal Kombat Armageddon, which promised a "definitive end" to the storyline, among other features, but instead just threw out the past continuity for some lame race to defeat a fire spirit for ultimate power, complete with nonsensical and out-of-character endings. Worse yet, character bios were ordered not to be included in the game; when a fan petition forced Midway to release them, only half of them were produced - most of which were for periphery characters no one cared about instead of the "main" cast — over a series of agonizingly months-long delays before being canceled entirely.
These seem more like cases of Vaporware.
- In a reversal, Nintendo during its early days would demand that certain games be edited for content, to keep them kid-friendly and live up to their "Seal of Quality". It worked for a time, until they started messing with Mortal Kombat. To this day, they are still shaking off the fan stigma of being a self-righteous "kiddy" gaming company. Thank you, Manhunt 2. (Thank you even more, Jack Thompson, even if you didn't mean it.)
- Anime has its own unique brand of Executive Meddling: the Macekre.
A Macekre isn't necessarily the result of Executive Meddling, though it can be.
- Censor Steam can be an example of Executive Meddling.
Again, it can be but it isn't always.
- In a case of Writer Meddling, Nightwing was intended to die at the end of Infinite Crisis. Geoff Johns and others convinced Dan DiDio to not kill off one of the longest-lasting characters in comic book history, so instead, he was merely injured. Superboy was killed instead, partly due to a lawsuit over the name.
- In an inversion of this trope, DiDio is side-mouth blamed by Grant Morrison and others for the Dis Continuity between Countdown to Infinite Crisis, Death of the New Gods and Final Crisis.
"Writer Meddling", um, isn't. And I'm not sure how that's an inversion.
- Bill Watterson has always wished for people to respect his trademarks and strenuously resisted any marketing attempts using Calvin and Hobbes. The probable reason he isn't complaining about online things is that he spends his days isolated from the outside world, painting.
- That, though, from what I've read, was more a matter of people commercializing his work and making a profit off of it than seeing and admiring it as the masterpiece it is. Who knows what he'd say to a bunch of non-salable fan art of his characters?
- Bill Watterson has always wished for people to respect his trademarks and strenuously resisted any marketing attempts using Calvin and Hobbes. The probable reason he isn't complaining about online things is that he spends his days isolated from the outside world, painting.
Conversation In The Main Page.
The Torchwood entry is pure assumption. How can you say, "many fans believe"? How do you know what "many" fans think? A section of the online fandom might have put forward that theory, but it's just a theory, and it's not possible to say how many fans believe it. Jack and Ianto's relationship developed throughout the first season, both sexually and emotionally. The JB quote sounds dodgy as he's always played up both sides (the fans who want Jack with Ianto and those who want him with Gwen) and never committed to either.
Dr Thinker: I take offense at removing of the following as it is 100% Executive Meddling: "Here's a odd one! How about outside Executive Meddling? It a lawsuit claims a show is similar to their own. The "Gobots" owners claimed the "Mighty Orbots" were base on the "Gobots". This why, "Mighty Orbots" lasted one season."
Mr Death: What's everyone else think about this image
◊?
Looney Toons: Almost the entire theatre section of examples strikes me as being more Moral Guardians on parade than actual Executive Meddling. I'm inclined to excise it whole and move it there. Thoughts, feelings, opposition?
Fast Eddie: Make that Troper Tales /Moral Guardians, in fact.
Looney Toons: Sounds like a plan. I'll do that thing forthwith.
TA: From the Spider-Man 3 entry: "If you look closely, there's still parts where the story seems to make no sense at all unless you pretend Venom's not in it." Just out of curiosity, what might some of those be?
{{Be:}} Is it really fair to include the example about Sony requiring games released in America to have an English voice track? Sure, people who don't mind the Japanese speech/text/whatever the rules entail would enjoy it, but they're a pretty damn small fraction compared to the market of people who would mind the Japanese but would be willing to play it anyway. Just sounds like good business sense to me - if nobody comments, I'll take it out.
Looney Toons: Hey, what happened to the film example for Seventeen Seventy Six, which is referenced twice on the page for that film? That's the one about Nixon demanding Goldwyn cut the "Cool, Considerate Men" number from the film because of political reasons. Anyone notice when it got snipped from the page?
Idle Dandy: I snipped:
- There was one bit of meddling that had a definite positive impact, though. By the end of season three, viewer complaints about the show's slow pace had reached an all time high, with many suspecting that the producers were deliberately dragging things out to make the show run longer and make more money. ABC stepped in and decreed that the show would end after season six, and furthermore each of the three remaining seasons would only have sixteen episodes. This really lit a fire under the producers and the show is generally agreed to have been much improved with the enforced deadline.
because it was the other way around. Lost's producers envisioned the show as five seasons, and they were the ones who asked (begged, actually) ABC to set an end date. ABC wanted three more seasons, so the compromise was three more seasons of 16 each instead of two more of 24 each. This of course allows three full-priced DVD sets instead of two!
CapnAndy: Removed some truly whiny entries in the Video Games section. A game's programming team making changes you don't like between sequels is not an example of this trope no matter how much you think it was better before.
megamcduck: Removed the New Media section. All of the entries listed were examples of art galleries adding new rules, which doesn't fit the trope. Not to mention, all of the entries were also people complaining about how the new rules banned furry and/or pedo artwork.
Discar: What happened to the Firefly section? All that's left is "Fox wanted a space hooker."
Neo Chaos: Just a note, but I remove the following section about a week ago:
- According to a former 3D Realms employee (currently employed at Infinity Ward), the reason Duke Nukem Forever stayed in Development Hell came about due to a deal between 3D Realms and Epic Games: After the release of the 2001 teaser trailer had the press' attention on 3D Realms and Max Payne was making waddles of cash for the company, 3D Realms and Epic, the provider of the game engine that their game was currently using, struck a deal to make gaming history by deliberately keeping Duke Nukem Forever in Development Hell to ultimately have a game that has spent more time in development than any other game in history, while also being the greatest FPS ever made, with Epic constantly providing new updates to their engine while 3D Realms tests their technology for Epic without actually having to release anything. And their plan worked flawlessly until 3D Realms was shut down by Take 2 in May 2009.
The reason being was that the next day after that blog entry went up, the writer redacted it
, admitting it was a re-post of a joke post he made on Something Awful back in 2007 and he didn't expect people to react to it the way they did. It's a complete fabrication that spun out of control because it was posted the day 3D Realms died.
What about Infernal Affairs? While the international release was (TMK) meddle-free, the Chinese Government required a bizarre alternative ending. The original ending, similar to rip-off The Departed, has everyone dying except Detective Ming, who seems to be (almost) getting off scott-free. However, the government insisted that criminals not be shown to profit from crime, so instead Ming is arrested by a cop squad that appeared out of nowhere and announced it knew all about his Triad connections. Does this belong here — it doesn't seem right for Multiple Endings? fuddlemark
Butterscotch: Removed from the Green Lantern example:
- To be fair, previous writer Gerard Jones pushed for a scenerio to keep Hal around, via the notion of having the Green Lantern Corps be taken over by the Zamarons, who would get rid of the yellow impurity/24 hour charge and install Sinestro as head of the Corps, resulting in Hal becoming a fugitive Green Lantern due to his refusal to serve his new female masters. But his version wasn't sexy enough, resulting in then-publisher Paul Levitz, along with senior group editors (at the time) Mike Carlin, Dennis O'Neil, and Archie Goodwin, as well as GL editor Kevin Dooley, plotted the new Emerald Twilight story, which was eventually given to Ron Marz to write.
- Not to mention that the "newer, hipper" Green Lantern, Kyle Rayner, never really came into his own due to DC purposely baiting fans, via their declaration of "there can be only one Green Lantern and that Lantern is Kyle Rayner!" as far as destroying the Corps and even forcing the Golden Age Green Lantern Alan Scott to be renamed "Sentinel" and stripping him of his own power ring in favor of internalising its energy, to justify Kyle Rayner's existence.
- What? Kyle outsold Batman and Superman. He outsold everything that wasn't Morrison's JLA. He came into his own quite well by the time he and Donna got together.
- Kyle eventually settled in just fine once Grant Morrison worked him into the JLA and Ron Marz was able to moderate from the original characterization... which was undone by some more of this trope as DC's new EIC set about resetting their hero base to the 1960's with Kyle's title as one of the first victims. At least Kyle was handled slightly better than Hal was on his way out.
- Slightly better? Kyle wasn't turned into a villain in the most stupid way manner (what happened to him in the "Sinestro Corps War" arc was never meant to be permanent), and he's still alive. He is one of the main characters of the current Green Lantern Corps title, is kinda dating a hot alien chick and even had his own miniseries for a while. His character may be different from when he was in JLA, but at least he's still respectable.
- Says you, Hal and Kyle suffered the exact same problems, it was ham handed and ballbustingly stupid. And unlike Hal Kyle is exiled from Earth basically, he has a best friend who is brain dead who he doesn't even acknowledge because his current writer never read his series. Hal may have become Magneto but Kyle became Cassandra Cain under Adam Beechan.
- Let's analyze this, when Hal became Parallax he took out the GLC and became a supervillain, he was then set up as an ultimate big bad who was basically killing because he intended to reverse any and all death he caused when he reshaped the world. His first plot (Zero Hour) involved him wanting to reset time and then bring everyone back to erase the tragedy in everyone's lives. His second plot was to simply become Green Lantern again and attempted to take the ring from Kyle who eventually convinced him that you can't just claim to be a hero then brutalize people, his third plot was going to involve him crafting a Silver-Age universe where everything was by his standards perfect causing the current heroes to rebel. I say was going to be because Final Night happened and he died after that redeemed. Okay so he had 2 evil actions and 1 planned evil action, now lets look at Kyle.
- And now he's dead, for the time being
- The Power of Love brought him back
- And now he's dead, for the time being
