This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Looney Toons: Moved these two paragraphs out of the main text, and put them at the top of the related discussion below.
//Are they really ancient? We're never really told how long they've been around. --Adonic Meki
//According to Hideki Anno, Lorenz Keele (the Big Bad of SEELE) is actually Casca Longinus Rufio, the Roman soldier who stabbed Jesus with the spear when He was crucified, suggesting they've been around a while.
Adonic Meki: Does anyone have a transcipt of an interview where Anno said that Keele Lorenz is really the Roman soldier who stabbed Jesus with the lance on the cross? Considering how closemouthed Anno tends to be regarding Eva, it strikes me as a little unlikely unless I see something backing it up.
Keru: All the research I've done into it reflects that the concept of Kihl being the "wandering jew" or the soldier who stabbed Christ at the cross was an error that entered into fandom from "Ikari Gendou's Ultimate Evangelion FAQ", which was regarded as notoriously flawed. Proving that he definitively is not, however, is a much more difficult prospect, based both on Anno's tight-lipped nature regarding the series, and the number of liberties the series took with the mythologies it chose to include. (For instance, we see a young Kihl in one of the flashbacks, and the "wandering jew" is said not to age, but it's certainly not outside the realm of possibility that that was simply left out.)
Adonic Meki: I was thinking of making another trope (assuming I haven't missed something that would cover it somewhere), perhaps called Ancient Tradition. As opposed to the Ancient Conspiracy, which is generally in control of (at least a significant portion of) the world, this would be for those families/groups that have some tradition of passive observation (e.g., the Watchers from Highlander) or perhaps of helping destined heroes or guarding some object of power (e.g., Kuanjitta and her ancestors in Madlax, the Hieda family in Asagiri no Miko, the Oogami family in Kannazuki no Miko). These are groups that pretty much stay in the background, but aren't actually controlling things from the shadows like an Ancient Conspiracy.
Gus: I'm not familar with the anime references, but I'm guessing that the BuffyTheVampireSlayer Watchers also fall into this category.
Adonic Meki: I wouldn't be surprised, given the name, though I'm not qualified to say one way or the other since I've only seen a few episodes from season1of BTVS.
Gus: Anyhoo, it seems like a valid entry that doesn't duplicate anything...
Adonic Meki: Okay, I'll go ahead and make it, then. I'll include the BTVS Watchers for now, if anyone can think of a reason why they shouldn't be included, they can work that Wiki magic. later: I put the Watchers' Council in passive observation; if they should be under the other group, someone can toss them there.
Gus: I think Ancient Conspiracy is misfiled. It is not really an ensemble, it's a trope.
Adonic Meki: Whoops, sorry about that; I'm still new to Wiki so I ended up putting it in the wrong place.
Semi-Known Troper: Out of interset, are there any notable examples of ancient conspiracys that where not the Big Bad?
Sikon: Searrs. And if - if - Otome takes place in the same universe, then their remnants in Otome are actually on the protagonist's side. (Schwarz, however, is on the Big Bad's side.)
The description of the Priory of Sion in The Da Vinci Code sounds more like an Ancient Tradition. --Document N
Charred Knight: Portable Ops revealed that the Patriors where founded in the 70's by Ocelot killing the Philosophers and stealing the Philosopher's Legacy.
John Di Fool: Is there a reason why someone has hidden the name "Fnord" all over the main page? Looks like the work of some vandal.
Arutema: It's a meta gag referencing one of the (well-known) literary examples.
