This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Aya:You think James is gay!?!
osh: Fairly sure the original meme is him being a crossdresser. But I guess the most stereotypical way could allow for it...
Jordan: I'm kind of confused with the Lockheart example- is this perception based off of the movie or book presentation of him? I'm honestly confused if I missed something about the character.
Duckluck: I think Lockhart should be removed and probably James from Pokemon, although I might be misremembering (it's been a while). Basically, if the audience isn't actively being led to wonder if they're gay, than it's just Fanwank, or at best Ho Yay, not an example of this trope.
Aya: There's way too much controversy surrounding James' sexuality for him fall into this trope.
http://bmgf.bulbagarden.net/archive/
index.php?t-11436.html (this is 1 of about 1,090,000).
Ununnilium: IMHO, at least the dub version is done in a Stereotype Gay-esque way.
Aya: You're right. A lot of people say that Eric Stuart, his voice actor from the 2nd season up to now(I guess), said that he wanted James to sound stereotypicaly gay.
That is entirely untrue—that was a lie cooked up by the people who insist James is gay. He was trying for a snobby rich kid voice and over the years it devolved into something that sounds incredibly flaming gay. Note also that James has an incredibly masculine voice in Japan, his "crossdressing" is done on the line of duty and to make the audience of mostly young children laugh, and the original Japanese version contains none of the rather forceful "LOL JAMES IS A FLAMING HOMO" lines 4Kids started adding later on, so he shouldn't even count.
Cassius335: Harley, on the other hand... how anyone can think he's straight is utterly beyond me.
tristanheydt: I never really thought of Kidd and Wint as ambiguously gay... oh, and corrected the names. http://imdb.com/title/tt0066995/
Seven Seals: Does Justin from Ugly Betty really count? OK, the word "gay" is never actually used, but on several occasions he's implicitly called gay — and this idea is not contested. Marc, the Pet Homosexual, even uses him as a reference when he comes out to his mother. I think the character's gotten past the point where you can legitimately use him as an example. If the writers come out and explicitly label him as straight, it's another matter, but I honestly can't see them becoming stupid enough to do that.
Incidentally, I wasn't at all surprised to learn that Mark Indelicato (who plays Justin) is straight. I can't really say why, it just seems like the most obvious gays are usually played by straight actors. (Of course, this is true even for non-obvious gays, with gay actors being a minority in any case, but still.)
Seven Seals: Gilderoy Lockhart?! No way. "Slightly effeminate fop" should not be an automatic "ambiguously gay" verdict. A lithmus test for this character type could be: if we suddenly saw this character making out with a member of the opposite sex, would this be shocking and annoying as contrary to our expectations? By that measure Lockhart doesn't qualify. I took him out.
Etrangere: Dude, Gilderoy hit on Snape. How gayer could he be?
Seven Seals: OK, it's been a good long while since I've read the books, and only a slightly-less-longer while since I've seen the movie. But if you wouldn't mind, could you quote chapter and verse on that? Because I have zero memory of that, so it was either unobvious or I skipped over it.
Etrangere: My book's home and I'm at my parents' so you'll have to wait for that. If you want to argue seriously, though, the line said "arguably" and Gilderoy's definitly camp enough to qualify regardless. "Slightly effeminate" doesn't cover it. Especially not the Kenneth Brannagh impersonation. (Don't you remember the purple?).
Seven Seals: "Arguably" is good, being able to say "he hit on Snape" convincingly is a lot better. It's because it's "arguably" that we're arguing now.
Kenneth Branagh's performance did not make me think "damn, this Lockhart guy is totally gay", purple notwithstanding. Camp? Sure. Not half the ladies' man the ladies take him for? No doubt. Attracted to men? Ehh, I don't see it.
I guess I'm making a point of it because I really dislike the way people will assume any camp character is gay. I realize this is actually part of the trope, and that it's perfectly subjective when a character becomes "obviously gay but nobody's telling" for viewers, but still.
Etrangere: I see. Well, I don't believe a fictionnal character ever is gay or not. They just can be read as such. No assumptions related. So I see Ambiguously Gay more about playing with a specific kind of (camp) gay stereotype, more than having a character be gay and never telling. Do you see what I mean?
And yes, it's pretty subjective.
Seven Seals: Yes, I see what you mean, and I guess that's where the cognitive dissonance comes from on my part. I don't like to view the character as a construct ("here the author is playing with gay stereotypes through this character") but as, you know, an actual person, who necessarily has to have some sort of sexuality. It's one thing for that aspect of the character to never be mentioned or explored, but it's another when that's also combined with behavioral stereotypes. So the "this character's sexuality is blank and they just act really campy to remind the audience of gay stereotypes" thing is grating. That's why I'd rather have Gilderoy Lockhart hitting on Snape (be it ever so subtly) than Gilderoy Lockhart camping it up in purple; better to have an "unconfirmed gay" than someone who's Ambiguously Gay — actually more like Plausibly Deniable Gay.
And I think the above reveals that I actually hate the pure application of this trope more than Gilderoy Lockhart as an example of it. Still, my original point also stands: that I never once thought of Lockhart as possibly gay, just because I don't automatically associate his behavior with "stereotypically gay". That could just be me not seeing it while the rest of the world does, though — maybe my stereotypes are just wired wrong in this regard. :-)
Yogi: Editing an "El Goonish Shive" example, since Justin said he was gay on the June 03, 2002 strip, before the incident in question happened.
Bugmaster: Surely, there's some logical reason why Smithers from The Simpsons is not mentioned ? Along with Karl and Lenny ? There must be a reason... right ?
- Schrau: Smithers, if not outed, is far from being ambiguous in his sexuality. Lenny and Karl are pretty much Heterosexual Life-Partners.
How did this entry get this far without mentioning Mr. Humphries on Are You Being Served?
Hokuto: Okay, maybe I missed something, but how does Llyod Asplund from Code Geass fit under this trope? Someone mind clearing this up for me?
Bardic Feline: Ok, this is a minor point, but in regards to Franziska Von Karma: kinder and caring towards women? O_O I didn't notice her holding back the whip for Lotta Hart, Ini Miney, or Maya. But I certainly will agree that she seems to be very Adriansexual...
What is that picture from? It doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere.
- I second that! If anyone knows then please mention it in a caption box under the picture so that people don't have to look it up here.
- Me three! And if it's a webcomic, then perhaps link to the home page.
- Found it. Here's the homepage: http://fern.junglestudio.com/comics/GC/index.php
- I'll do a read-through later and give it a page. Unless someone else already has. In either case, I'm putting a link to the comic under the picture.
The picture has been turned into a link. At one point, the link lead to the archive for the comic in question, but now leads to the specific comic that the frame is taken from. Which is better? The specific comic for providing immediate context, or the archive for allowing tropers easy access to the story proper?
Yeah, The Doctor being ambiguously gay is probably something that only I ever thought, but if you think about it, there was little to indicate (for the first two seasons I saw) that he had ever fallen in love with Rose (she could have easily had the same status as Martha) and everything to indicate that he was living alone with a hot girl and totally not going for her. That, plus the hair, plus the blue suit and red sneakers, and that David Tennant, while indisputably handsome, is the sort of person who can convincingly play a transsexual, all left me sort of half-joking fan-wank wondering. For the first half of Utopia, where the Doctor has no decent explanation for acting like a jilted lover towards an obviously bisexual guy, I seriously thought he was gay. Then I went back and watched the first season, and I felt silly. Oh well... maybe I should move this to the WMG page. It would be perfect if everything before "The Shakespere Code" hadn't happened.
The Painted Maypole: Ho Yay aside, I've always gotten the impression Light Yagami was supposed to be asexual. Could someone expand on why they put him on this list?
hyjyn: that furry picture is goddamn disgusting
Exploding Frogs: I call Troll. I refuse to believe that there is anyone so narrow-mindedly judgmental (and about such a silly thing, too!) as to honestly think that a completely innocuous, nonviolent, nonsexual picture is more disgusting than any other showing the same subject matter just because the characters involved happen to be Funny Animals.
And even if you do honestly hold that opinion? Judging from the length of time that image has been there, and the lack of any other complaints, you're the only one. In any case, Janitor said it's fine. Given that the owner of the site has no problems with it, I'd say the matter's closed.
