Reviews VideoGame / Final Fantasy XIII 2

and didn't under-develop more than 50% of its characters like XIII did

Wait, what? Most of XIII was spent developing it's characters. Everyone in the party gets a character arc and at least some depth. So do most villains

In XIII-2... Noel is Fang except not as interesting. Serah is only really interesting in that she combines both love-interest and protagonist tropes. Yeul is generic seer #374. Caius is pretty much just arrogance and a shitty motivation. Alyssa is presumably going to get explained in XIII-3, but is largely a question mark here. Hope is decent enough, but that's one character out of six

"Wait, what? Most of XIII was spent developing it's characters. Everyone in the party gets a character arc and at least some depth. So do most villains "

I'm afraid I cannot agree. As much as you say the characters in XIII-2 were generic, and some admittedly were, XIII was even worse in my opinion, and their characters arcs were simply linear and tiring. While the characters were developed, their "developments" were static and predictable, building hardly anything worthwhile on stereotypical character types (the angsty, loner hero, the token black guy, the reckless vigilante, the perky chick, the tagalong kid, and the mysterious big sis.)

As for the characters of XIII-2, Serah went from a purely emotional, naive girl to a strong, dependable woman capable of handling herself. For Yeul, I found her character beautifully done, filled with solemn grace and infinite but sad acceptance, and her backstory was incredibly tragic, especially since she can only watch as those she called friends bring the world down around her even as she tries to stop them.

Next we come to Caius, and though he wasn't the most DEEP or original villain in FF, he was certainly harder to read, more sympathetic, and more enjoyable to experience than the blah Fal'cie and Jihl from the previous game. And at least he had other aspects to his personality and motive except "for the evulz," which is really all Barthandalus and Orphan amounted to, their explanation of bringing back the Maker notwithstanding. And how is trying to save your dearest loved one from a never ending, tragic cycle of death and rebirth that they themselves didn't choose and can't end "shitty?" True, he could've left well enough alone, and should have, but because of Etro's reckless and un-thought out "blessing" to him to let him protect Yeul forever - not the first stupid thing Etro's ever done, according to XIII mythology - he's slowly gone mad from anger and grief and no longer sees any other way. This is far more than the previous antagonists ever had.

XIII was even worse in my opinion, and their characters arcs were simply linear and tiring. While the characters were developed, their "developments" were static and predictable, building hardly anything worthwhile on stereotypical character types (the angsty, loner hero, the token black guy, the reckless vigilante, the perky chick, the tagalong kid, and the mysterious big sis.)

The fact that the characters are fairly generic (I'd argue about Fang and Hope) does mean they aren't developed

Serah went from a purely emotional, naive girl to a strong, dependable woman capable of handling herself.

...Not really. You can play the side areas completely out of order and not notice a difference in how she acts. In the main story, pretty much all that changes is her determination to find Lightning

For Yeul, I found her character beautifully done, filled with solemn grace and infinite but sad acceptance

I found her more your average Emotionless Girl, but okay

"for the evulz," which is really all Barthandalus and Orphan amounted to, their explanation of bringing back the Maker notwithstanding.

So your saying that they had no motivation if you ignore their motivation?

harder to read

Not necessarily a good thing

more enjoyable to experience

That one I have to call YMMV on

And how is trying to save your dearest loved one from a never ending, tragic cycle of death and rebirth that they themselves didn't choose and can't end "shitty?"

It's not very interesting. And his way of going about it is moronic

"The fact that the characters are fairly generic (I'd argue about Fang and Hope) does mean they aren't developed"

I didn't say they the generic quality had anything to do with how they developed. Their characters would have been fine if their developments hadn't been so predictable and underwhelming. I pretty much called everything that would happen in their evolution from the moment their motives were revealed. There's nothing new or surprising about them.

"...Not really. You can play the side areas completely out of order and not notice a difference in how she acts. In the main story, pretty much all that changes is her determination to find Lightning"

True, Serah's main motivation was finding Lightning, but she also comes to see how Caius must be stopped in order to not only find her sister, but to protect the future and the lives of millions of innocents as well. And though the side content did overshadow the main story, that wasn't all there was to the game, despite what most people appear to believe. Trim all that out, and it's much easier to map out Serah's development. At the beginning, from New Bodhum on to approximately the Yaschas Massif, she is naive and almost solely focused on finding Lightning, not necessarily saving the future. When she learns the expanse of the tragedy about to unfold, from the Yaschas Massif onward, she sees that not all of what's happening is entirely about her, but about everyone in the world, and begins to fight for other people and become strong for their sake.

"I found her more your average Emotionless Girl, but okay"

She's hardly emotionless. Throughout the whole story she's forced to make incredibly hard and tragic decisions, and while she doesn't break down and scream and cry like most girls would, you can tell she is incredibly sad and only wants the best for her friends, even as they are destroying the world. Just because she expresses her emotions in a calm, collected manner does not mean she's emotionless.

"So your saying that they had no motivation if you ignore their motivation?"

Nowhere did I say that their motivation was ignored. You seem to like putting words in my mouth. It's just that their motivation is thin and piss poor. There's no depth, no reason for us to be sympathetic, or even to utterly despise the Fal'cie. They only seem to do what they do simply to piss people off.

"That one I have to call YMMV on"

Again, I simply cannot agree.

"It's not very interesting. And his way of going about it is moronic"

What isn't interesting about it, exactly? And you seem to have ignored what I said at the end of my second comment. I admitted that Caius's methods were severely flawed - he should've left things as they were, and there were times I wanted to slap him despite how much I enjoyed his character. But he keeps going because he's COMPLETELY INSANE, driven to that point by the "mercy" (read: "idiocy") of Etro. How would you feel if you could never die, but had to watch your most precious one be born only to die again, over and over and over - in the unbreakable service of the deity that put you and them in that position, no less? Can you guarantee that you wouldn't do something equally "moronic"?

Just because she expresses her emotions in a calm, collected manner does not mean she's emotionless.

I was referring to the Emotionless Girl archetype, which covers cases like that. She's really a very standard character

Nowhere did I say that their motivation was ignored.

Then what did you mean by "their explanation of bringing back the Maker notwithstanding"?

There's no depth, no reason for us to be sympathetic, or even to utterly despise the Fal'cie.

That's actually kind of the point. The Fal'cie aren't human and don't think like humans. They're less characters and more part of the worldbuilding

What isn't interesting about it, exactly?

Mainly the fact that I've seen something similar a few dozen times before. Admittedly, he does combine two standard motivations, but they're both very standard motivations

Can you guarantee that you wouldn't do something equally "moronic"?

I really only care about plausibility when it interferes with Willing Suspension Of Disbelief

"I was referring to the Emotionless Girl archetype, which covers cases like that. She's really a very standard character"

It may be a generic archetype, but have you even listened to her theme?

"Then what did you mean by "their explanation of bringing back the Maker notwithstanding"?"

My apologies. I should have explained that better before. I meant that, even though the main motivation of the Fal'cie was to revive the Maker, it seems to me that they take FAR too much enjoyment in being annoying and in trying to kill billions of people than they should.

"That's actually kind of the point. The Fal'cie aren't human and don't think like humans. They're less characters and more part of the worldbuilding"

You do have a point there, since the Fal'cie are essentially gods and treat humans like disposable pets, but they DO possess emotions and are villains, and not presenting any reason to feel anything for their motives except simply wanting to make them shut up isn't very attractive.

"Mainly the fact that I've seen something similar a few dozen times before. Admittedly, he does combine two standard motivations, but they're both very standard motivations"

Most motives have been seen a few dozen times before and are standard, but it's the way Caius presents his that makes it interesting. It may seem like he's simply under the Love Makes You Crazy trope, an to an extent he is, but it's more than that. He's so angry at Etro and what she has done that he wants the goddess to suffer as much as he has, and he also wants people to understand that, whenever they do something to change the timeline, a little more of Yeul's life is drained away, culminating until her body simply cannot handle any more of the strain. Even if he didn't love her, that's an enormous problem. Unfortunately for him, the protagonists are trying to change the timeline in order to ensure that humanity doesn't die (again, thanks a bunch for screwing everyone over, Etro), and they aren't willing to compromise because of the widespread severity of what will happen, so...

"I really only care about plausibility when it interferes with Willing Suspension Of Disbelief"

Um...what part of Caius being an omnicidal psychopath doesn't make sense to you? You've ignored that fact every single time I've addressed it. That aside, I think more than a few allowances can be made for characters that are so far gone that they only care about themselves and their goals.

It may be a generic archetype, but have you even listened to her theme?

I played the game with the sound on, yes. I'm not sure how this is relevant, though

Um...what part of Caius being an omnicidal psychopath doesn't make sense to you?

First, he's not, really. That his plans will kill a lot of people is a minor detail to him, not the goal. Second, I understand that he's kind of nuts just fine, I just don't think he's nuts in a particularly interesting way

Will you people stop using so many tropes when you're trying to make a point?

Will you people stop using so many tropes when you're trying to make a point?

The site does that to a lot of people here, even the mods.

"I played the game with the sound on, yes. I'm not sure how this is relevant, though"

Okay, so you've heard her theme. But have you actually LISTENED to it, as in hearing the lyrics and understanding them, hearing the story they have to tell?

"First, he's not, really. That his plans will kill a lot of people is a minor detail to him, not the goal. Second, I understand that he's kind of nuts just fine, I just don't think he's nuts in a particularly interesting way"

All right. It's obvious that on this point we are going to get nowhere with each other. I'm fine with agreeing to disagree here.

"Will you people stop using so many tropes when you're trying to make a point?"

What's wrong with using tropes to make a point?