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Discussion Recap / MiraculousLadybugS04E08QueenBanana

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infernape612 Since: May, 2013
May 29th 2021 at 11:32:04 PM •••

I truly don't believe this qualifies as a Wham Episode. Quoth the page itself: "Just because an event is dramatic or has a reveal, that doesn't make it a Wham Episode. In order to qualify, the episode must:"

Signify a shake-up in the status quo. While I don't deny that things have changed a little as a result of this episode, everything is proceeding in the same trajectory as it's always been. Chloe going over the edge and having the Bee Miraculous taken from her always meant that someone would replace her. Ladybug developing charms to prevent akumatization always meant that Hawk Moth would realize she's now capable of blocking him. Zoe's first episode shows that her relationship with Chloe is horrible, and that hasn't fundamentally changed. All of these are completely predictable. Even the closest thing we have to a twist, Adrien losing his grip on her, is still consistent with the trajectory her character arc has been going in.

Show that the change is not easily undone. While Chloe's issues are not easily undone, they've already been established over the course of three seasons and change. Zoe could easily be replaced as the bee heroine for whatever reason. The only thing that has difficulty being undone is Hawk Moth learning about charms, and if "person learns new information" makes an episode Wham, every episode of every thing ever made is a Wham Episode.

Be felt by the characters within the series. Nobody is going to be commenting for ages how a new superhero has risen given that she's the twelfth Miraculous superhero introduced. Nobody is going to be commenting for ages that Chloe is more insane than she already is. Nobody is going to be commenting for ages that the charms work as advertised.

Overall, this isn't a significant twist, it's just building on what's already been established.

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7353 Since: Jun, 2018
May 30th 2021 at 3:17:54 AM •••

The fact that Chloé ended her friendship with Adrien is already enough to make it one. Their friendship was extremely important to her, it was shocking that she would go that far. And this was felt by every character.

It is also the first time that a hero is replaced. Chloé makes it very clear that she despises her successor, this conflict is far from over.

Yes, the charms do work. And now Hawk Moth has realized that something strange is going on. I doubt that he will just ignore the fact that he finds less and less victims.

RoundRobin Since: Jun, 2018
May 30th 2021 at 11:09:42 AM •••

I'm on the fence about whether the introduction of Vesperia counts as Wham or not. On one hand, it was expected that someone else would be given the Bee Miraculous following Chloé getting kicked off the team. On the other hand, y'know, new hero. However, seeing as none of the other episodes where a new hero is introduced is marked as a Wham Episode, I guess we should follow suit here.

Chloé breaking her friendship with Adrien, on the other hand, counts as Wham, in my opinion. It's shocking, since the threat of losing Adrien has always made Chloé behave before. And it shakes the status quo; as we saw (will see?) in "Guiltrip", Adrien will start snarking at Chloé instead of letting her bad behavior slide.

- Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!
7353 Since: Jun, 2018
May 30th 2021 at 12:11:47 PM •••

As I said, she is not only a new heroine but also a replacement. And that hasn't happened before.

infernape612 Since: May, 2013
May 30th 2021 at 2:51:04 PM •••

Again, the very fact that Chloe got fired necessitated that someone would replace her. It is a completely logical development arising from previously established plot elements. It is not Wham.

AJSthe2nd Since: Jan, 2015
May 30th 2021 at 3:28:40 PM •••

It's definitely more notable than your average episode. Considering how formulatic the show usually is Chloe being so far gone that she's rejecting Adrien, plus actually seeing the charms in action and Shadow Moth becoming aware of the fact that something can block an akuma seems very important. Vesperia is just the icing on that.

But it's really more than show feels so painfully formula half the time that I feel like ANYTHING that might possibly come up later on makes it wham episode.

RockSunner Since: Sep, 2009
May 31st 2021 at 7:58:49 AM •••

It seems to me that the ending of the friendship between Chloe and Adrien is a natural development and not a "wham" because that friendship has been on its last legs for a long time. When have we seen Adrien actually hang out with Chloe and have fun?

TheRoguePenguin Since: Jul, 2009
May 31st 2021 at 11:21:51 AM •••

Gonna go with not being a Wham. Shadow Moth doesn't learn anything that meaningfully changes the status quo, and Chloe's extra bitchy behavior is something that at best makes the class a little more annoyed with her. The only point I think would qualify is Zoe as new Bee holder, and that's a plot line that is fairly common by this point.

7353 Since: Jun, 2018
Jun 1st 2021 at 8:04:21 AM •••

Adrien did not even unfriend Chloé after Miracle Queen, it is a shock to see that Chloé would go this far. Once only the thought of losing his friendship was enough to devastate her.

Shadow Moth learning that there is something that can prevent akumatzations is certainly meaningful.

And the point is not that there is a new hero but that a former hero gets replaced.

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