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[= * ValuesDissonance: It is difficult for many modern readers to \'\'not\'\' instinctively side with the Trojans as a whole and Hector in particular; the mindset of Achilles was valid back then but is now somewhat alien, while the values that Hector embodies are still widely held. =]
[= ** Modern readers? Heck, pretty much the entire western tradition has found Hector to be the more heroic one. There\'s a reason why Dante put him in Limbo with the virtuous pagans instead of suffering like Achilles in the Second Circle. He was also one of the Medieval Nine Worthies - nine historical or legendary figures they found to be paragons of chivalry. =]
[= *** Keep in mind that the Latins believed that they were the descendants of the Trojans through Aeneas, though. =]
[= **For the matter of that the military culture of Classical Greece would have despised Achilles for lack of [[{{Nakama}} team spirit]]. Especially the city which revered military discipline most. You all know [[ThisIsSparta which one]] it is. =]
[= ***Alexander the Great regarded Achilles as his personal hero. But then [[AxCrazy he would]] wouldn\'t he? =]
[= *** The above comment also neglects to take into account that at a given point in the history any culture goes through a phase of warfare called \
[= ** Modern readers? Heck, pretty much the entire western tradition has found Hector to be the more heroic one. There\'s a reason why Dante put him in Limbo with the virtuous pagans instead of suffering like Achilles in the Second Circle. He was also one of the Medieval Nine Worthies - nine historical or legendary figures they found to be paragons of chivalry. =]
[= *** Keep in mind that the Latins believed that they were the descendants of the Trojans through Aeneas, though. =]
[= **For the matter of that the military culture of Classical Greece would have despised Achilles for lack of [[{{Nakama}} team spirit]]. Especially the city which revered military discipline most. You all know [[ThisIsSparta which one]] it is. =]
[= ***Alexander the Great regarded Achilles as his personal hero. But then [[AxCrazy he would]] wouldn\'t he? =]
[= *** The above comment also neglects to take into account that at a given point in the history any culture goes through a phase of warfare called \
to:
@@[= * ValuesDissonance: It is difficult for many modern readers to \\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\' instinctively side with the Trojans as a whole and Hector in particular; the mindset of Achilles was valid back then but is now somewhat alien, while the values that Hector embodies are still widely held. =]@@
@@[= ** Modern readers? Heck, pretty much the entire western tradition has found Hector to be the more heroic one. There\\\'s a reason why Dante put him in Limbo with the virtuous pagans instead of suffering like Achilles in the Second Circle. He was also one of the Medieval Nine Worthies - nine historical or legendary figures they found to be paragons of chivalry. =]@@
@@[= *** Keep in mind that the Latins believed that they were the descendants of the Trojans through Aeneas, though. =]@@
@@[= **For the matter of that the military culture of Classical Greece would have despised Achilles for lack of [[{{Nakama}} team spirit]]. Especially the city which revered military discipline most. You all know [[ThisIsSparta which one]] it is. =]@@
@@[= ***Alexander the Great regarded Achilles as his personal hero. But then [[AxCrazy he would]] wouldn\\\'t he? =]@@
@@[= *** The above comment also neglects to take into account that at a given point in the history any culture goes through a phase of warfare called \\\"Heroic\\\"; centered on individual exploits and heroics. This is what we see here, even the Romans (yes the ones we automatically think of as legionairres in testudo formation) did this 800- 400-ish BC. Further, like Hollywood films or Icelandic sagas, Homer\\\'s poems were intended to entertain. Is Die Hard or First Blood good descriptions of our style of warfare? Nope, but imagine if they are all scholars have to go on in 3k years... =]@@
@@[= ****Most of us would hopefully have some degree of ValuesDissonance with Die Hard or First Blood as well. =]@@
@@[= ** Let\\\'s not forget that while everyone from Homer\\\'s time up [[CosmicPlaything ridiculed Helen]] or joked about her [[IfYouKnowWhatIMean exploits]], modern readers will find it hard not to sympathize with her because she\\\'s so terribly lonely. =]@@
@@[= ***Yeah, poor girl. I\\\'m sure all the [[{{Euripides}} Trojan Woman]] were \\\'\\\'intensely\\\'\\\' sympathetic. =]@@
Pulled from the entry and edited down into a more concise form, since it was looking like ThreadMode. Some bits were deleted because they weren\\\'t really relevant to the trope being discussed (the note about the Latins believing themselves descended from the Trojans, and the reference to \\\'\\\'Die Hard\\\'\\\' and \\\'\\\'Trojan Women\\\'\\\').
@@[= ** Modern readers? Heck, pretty much the entire western tradition has found Hector to be the more heroic one. There\\\'s a reason why Dante put him in Limbo with the virtuous pagans instead of suffering like Achilles in the Second Circle. He was also one of the Medieval Nine Worthies - nine historical or legendary figures they found to be paragons of chivalry. =]@@
@@[= *** Keep in mind that the Latins believed that they were the descendants of the Trojans through Aeneas, though. =]@@
@@[= **For the matter of that the military culture of Classical Greece would have despised Achilles for lack of [[{{Nakama}} team spirit]]. Especially the city which revered military discipline most. You all know [[ThisIsSparta which one]] it is. =]@@
@@[= ***Alexander the Great regarded Achilles as his personal hero. But then [[AxCrazy he would]] wouldn\\\'t he? =]@@
@@[= *** The above comment also neglects to take into account that at a given point in the history any culture goes through a phase of warfare called \\\"Heroic\\\"; centered on individual exploits and heroics. This is what we see here, even the Romans (yes the ones we automatically think of as legionairres in testudo formation) did this 800- 400-ish BC. Further, like Hollywood films or Icelandic sagas, Homer\\\'s poems were intended to entertain. Is Die Hard or First Blood good descriptions of our style of warfare? Nope, but imagine if they are all scholars have to go on in 3k years... =]@@
@@[= ****Most of us would hopefully have some degree of ValuesDissonance with Die Hard or First Blood as well. =]@@
@@[= ** Let\\\'s not forget that while everyone from Homer\\\'s time up [[CosmicPlaything ridiculed Helen]] or joked about her [[IfYouKnowWhatIMean exploits]], modern readers will find it hard not to sympathize with her because she\\\'s so terribly lonely. =]@@
@@[= ***Yeah, poor girl. I\\\'m sure all the [[{{Euripides}} Trojan Woman]] were \\\'\\\'intensely\\\'\\\' sympathetic. =]@@
Pulled from the entry and edited down into a more concise form, since it was looking like ThreadMode. Some bits were deleted because they weren\\\'t really relevant to the trope being discussed (the note about the Latins believing themselves descended from the Trojans, and the reference to \\\'\\\'Die Hard\\\'\\\' and \\\'\\\'Trojan Women\\\'\\\').
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
* ValuesDissonance: It is difficult for many modern readers to \'\'not\'\' instinctively side with the Trojans as a whole and Hector in particular; the mindset of Achilles was valid back then but is now somewhat alien, while the values that Hector embodies are still widely held.
** Modern readers? Heck, pretty much the entire western tradition has found Hector to be the more heroic one. There\'s a reason why Dante put him in Limbo with the virtuous pagans instead of suffering like Achilles in the Second Circle. He was also one of the Medieval Nine Worthies - nine historical or legendary figures they found to be paragons of chivalry.
*** Keep in mind that the Latins believed that they were the descendants of the Trojans through Aeneas, though.
**For the matter of that the military culture of Classical Greece would have despised Achilles for lack of [[{{Nakama}} team spirit]]. Especially the city which revered military discipline most. You all know [[ThisIsSparta which one]] it is.
***Alexander the Great regarded Achilles as his personal hero. But then [[AxCrazy he would]] wouldn\'t he?
*** The above comment also neglects to take into account that at a given point in the history any culture goes through a phase of warfare called \
** Modern readers? Heck, pretty much the entire western tradition has found Hector to be the more heroic one. There\'s a reason why Dante put him in Limbo with the virtuous pagans instead of suffering like Achilles in the Second Circle. He was also one of the Medieval Nine Worthies - nine historical or legendary figures they found to be paragons of chivalry.
*** Keep in mind that the Latins believed that they were the descendants of the Trojans through Aeneas, though.
**For the matter of that the military culture of Classical Greece would have despised Achilles for lack of [[{{Nakama}} team spirit]]. Especially the city which revered military discipline most. You all know [[ThisIsSparta which one]] it is.
***Alexander the Great regarded Achilles as his personal hero. But then [[AxCrazy he would]] wouldn\'t he?
*** The above comment also neglects to take into account that at a given point in the history any culture goes through a phase of warfare called \
to:
[= * ValuesDissonance: It is difficult for many modern readers to \\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\' instinctively side with the Trojans as a whole and Hector in particular; the mindset of Achilles was valid back then but is now somewhat alien, while the values that Hector embodies are still widely held. =]
[= ** Modern readers? Heck, pretty much the entire western tradition has found Hector to be the more heroic one. There\\\'s a reason why Dante put him in Limbo with the virtuous pagans instead of suffering like Achilles in the Second Circle. He was also one of the Medieval Nine Worthies - nine historical or legendary figures they found to be paragons of chivalry. =]
[= *** Keep in mind that the Latins believed that they were the descendants of the Trojans through Aeneas, though. =]
[= **For the matter of that the military culture of Classical Greece would have despised Achilles for lack of [[{{Nakama}} team spirit]]. Especially the city which revered military discipline most. You all know [[ThisIsSparta which one]] it is. =]
[= ***Alexander the Great regarded Achilles as his personal hero. But then [[AxCrazy he would]] wouldn\\\'t he? =]
[= *** The above comment also neglects to take into account that at a given point in the history any culture goes through a phase of warfare called \\\"Heroic\\\"; centered on individual exploits and heroics. This is what we see here, even the Romans (yes the ones we automatically think of as legionairres in testudo formation) did this 800- 400-ish BC. Further, like Hollywood films or Icelandic sagas, Homer\\\'s poems were intended to entertain. Is Die Hard or First Blood good descriptions of our style of warfare? Nope, but imagine if they are all scholars have to go on in 3k years... =]
[= ****Most of us would hopefully have some degree of ValuesDissonance with Die Hard or First Blood as well. =]
[= ** Let\\\'s not forget that while everyone from Homer\\\'s time up [[CosmicPlaything ridiculed Helen]] or joked about her [[IfYouKnowWhatIMean exploits]], modern readers will find it hard not to sympathize with her because she\\\'s so terribly lonely. =]
[= ***Yeah, poor girl. I\\\'m sure all the [[{{Euripides}} Trojan Woman]] were \\\'\\\'intensely\\\'\\\' sympathetic. =]
Pulled from the entry and edited down into a more concise form, since it was looking like ThreadMode. Some bits were deleted because they weren\\\'t really relevant to the trope being discussed (the note about the Latins believing themselves descended from the Trojans, and the reference to \\\'\\\'Die Hard\\\'\\\' and \\\'\\\'Trojan Women\\\'\\\').
[= ** Modern readers? Heck, pretty much the entire western tradition has found Hector to be the more heroic one. There\\\'s a reason why Dante put him in Limbo with the virtuous pagans instead of suffering like Achilles in the Second Circle. He was also one of the Medieval Nine Worthies - nine historical or legendary figures they found to be paragons of chivalry. =]
[= *** Keep in mind that the Latins believed that they were the descendants of the Trojans through Aeneas, though. =]
[= **For the matter of that the military culture of Classical Greece would have despised Achilles for lack of [[{{Nakama}} team spirit]]. Especially the city which revered military discipline most. You all know [[ThisIsSparta which one]] it is. =]
[= ***Alexander the Great regarded Achilles as his personal hero. But then [[AxCrazy he would]] wouldn\\\'t he? =]
[= *** The above comment also neglects to take into account that at a given point in the history any culture goes through a phase of warfare called \\\"Heroic\\\"; centered on individual exploits and heroics. This is what we see here, even the Romans (yes the ones we automatically think of as legionairres in testudo formation) did this 800- 400-ish BC. Further, like Hollywood films or Icelandic sagas, Homer\\\'s poems were intended to entertain. Is Die Hard or First Blood good descriptions of our style of warfare? Nope, but imagine if they are all scholars have to go on in 3k years... =]
[= ****Most of us would hopefully have some degree of ValuesDissonance with Die Hard or First Blood as well. =]
[= ** Let\\\'s not forget that while everyone from Homer\\\'s time up [[CosmicPlaything ridiculed Helen]] or joked about her [[IfYouKnowWhatIMean exploits]], modern readers will find it hard not to sympathize with her because she\\\'s so terribly lonely. =]
[= ***Yeah, poor girl. I\\\'m sure all the [[{{Euripides}} Trojan Woman]] were \\\'\\\'intensely\\\'\\\' sympathetic. =]
Pulled from the entry and edited down into a more concise form, since it was looking like ThreadMode. Some bits were deleted because they weren\\\'t really relevant to the trope being discussed (the note about the Latins believing themselves descended from the Trojans, and the reference to \\\'\\\'Die Hard\\\'\\\' and \\\'\\\'Trojan Women\\\'\\\').
