[005]
DaibhidC
Current Version
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33 and celebrating his coming of age, because he\'d just left the hobbit adolescence known as the \
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33 and celebrating his coming of age, because he\\\'d just left the hobbit adolescence known as the \\\"tweens\\\". Hobbits don\\\'t age at the same rate as humans.
Changed line(s) 3 from:
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\\\"Okay, after going through that loopy conversation about Metal Gear characters, here\\\'s my thoughts.
We technically left out one aspect of Complete Monster, most likely because we never saw a need for it. Basically, the character in question has to be perfectly willing to perform these actions. An artificial intelligence has to reach the point of being able to make acts of true volition in order to be able to perform an act that would qualify for this trope. So the question really is, are the AI characters in Metal Gear capable of willful actions?
The big problem here is that the game has screwed enough minds that it really is impossible to say. EJ01 makes some absurdly specious arguments about whether or not an AI can call a person a pawn if it\\\'s truly capable of volition \\\'\\\'\\\'(I can make a chatbot call people pawns today; this does not make a chatbot a Complete Monster)\\\'\\\'\\\'. That said, the flip side is that, between mind screws and flat out lies, we can\\\'t be sure if the information saying that they were incapable of such in the fourth game was true. For that matter, given some of the absurd super-science going on in the game (which they deliberately played up), it\\\'s quite reasonable from the series to conclude that it did develop volition and the people interacting with it simply didn\\\'t know.
So the shortest answer is, Kojima deliberately made it a giant mess that we can\\\'t adequately answer.
Since the idea that said AI constructs have true volition is at least plausible in the universe in question, I say that we hedge and say something along the lines of \\\"If it turns out that artificial intelligence in this setting can act on its own volition...\\\" in the description. We acknowledge the Mind Screw involved as well as not making a stand on it, while noting that such actions from a character with volition do count for this trope. Does that sound reasonable?
As for Coldman, I think he\\\'s a much easier case. It doesn\\\'t matter whether or not the character actually is right. If he thinks he is acting in the best interests of someone other than him, that\\\'s being a Well-Intentioned Extremist and disqualified for the trope. The bit about his not caring about whether the button is pressed is a non-issue - if he thinks that everything is already doomed regardless of whether the action is taken (given that he\\\'s dying and knows that he failed at what he tried to do, a reasonable assumption), then he really wouldn\\\'t care. So I think he\\\'s an easy removal.\\\"
His point about the chatbot is key; your arguement is that only a self-aware mind could call someone a pawn. 32 could make a chatbot that was programmed to belittle you and consider you beneath it, that doesn\\\'t mean it\\\'s self-aware. Same argument applies to the Patriot AIs. They were created by Zero to carry out his will, and \\\'\\\'\\\'he considered people to be pawns.\\\'\\\'\\\' Who is to say that Zero did not have the AIs programed to share his view on people? The Patriots share his vision of a world united, and they (in MetalGearSolid2 at least) share his methods in achieving his ends.
The bit about characters having disgust and anger towards the Patriots is irrelevant; half of them didn\\\'t even know the Patriots were AI (they were under the impression that they were the Wiseman\\\'s committe). And a person can express disgust and anger towards a hurricane, that doesn\\\'t change the fact that a hurricane isn\\\'t self-aware or even alive.
Finally, I must go to the end of MetalGearSolid4 and Big Boss\\\' said on them; \\\"In the end they\\\'re only a program. They can only repeat the same patterns over and over again.\\\" He, who suffered the most at the hands of the Patriot\\\'s system, didn\\\'t view them as sentient beings but rather just a program. You say that they have to be self-aware to call humans pawns? Zero programmed them to share his opinion on humans (evidenced by EVA saying he lost faith in humans and by the fact that he does use several people as pawns throughout the entire series) and that they were programmed to treat humans as pawns. Simple as that.
As for Coldman, again he does sincerely believe in what he\\\'s saying; that humans are incapable of ending the world, and thus MAD was broken and if the Soviets ever launched a nuclear strike Washington would not retaliate. His last word was \\\"Peace\\\" too. He seems to believe that all of his actions were for the good of the United States. Tropers are confusing \\\"Utter Bastard\\\" with \\\"No redeeming qualities period, does evil things for the sake of evil things, has no reasonable justification or excuse, nor any sort of goal beyond their own selfish reasons.\\\" So while Coldman is a bastard and ultimately on the wrong side of grey, he does have a small glimmer of aultustic qualities in him, which is enough to Disqualify him.
So at the moment for the Patriots we have a 2-to-1 concensses in favour of them being on the list (with 32 wanting a line for the mind-screw factor), and a 2-to-1 concenses against Hot Coldman. I don\\\'t suppose you know anyone else who could chime in on this discussion? I feel like these two examples need more people to look them over.
We technically left out one aspect of Complete Monster, most likely because we never saw a need for it. Basically, the character in question has to be perfectly willing to perform these actions. An artificial intelligence has to reach the point of being able to make acts of true volition in order to be able to perform an act that would qualify for this trope. So the question really is, are the AI characters in Metal Gear capable of willful actions?
The big problem here is that the game has screwed enough minds that it really is impossible to say. EJ01 makes some absurdly specious arguments about whether or not an AI can call a person a pawn if it\\\'s truly capable of volition \\\'\\\'\\\'(I can make a chatbot call people pawns today; this does not make a chatbot a Complete Monster)\\\'\\\'\\\'. That said, the flip side is that, between mind screws and flat out lies, we can\\\'t be sure if the information saying that they were incapable of such in the fourth game was true. For that matter, given some of the absurd super-science going on in the game (which they deliberately played up), it\\\'s quite reasonable from the series to conclude that it did develop volition and the people interacting with it simply didn\\\'t know.
So the shortest answer is, Kojima deliberately made it a giant mess that we can\\\'t adequately answer.
Since the idea that said AI constructs have true volition is at least plausible in the universe in question, I say that we hedge and say something along the lines of \\\"If it turns out that artificial intelligence in this setting can act on its own volition...\\\" in the description. We acknowledge the Mind Screw involved as well as not making a stand on it, while noting that such actions from a character with volition do count for this trope. Does that sound reasonable?
As for Coldman, I think he\\\'s a much easier case. It doesn\\\'t matter whether or not the character actually is right. If he thinks he is acting in the best interests of someone other than him, that\\\'s being a Well-Intentioned Extremist and disqualified for the trope. The bit about his not caring about whether the button is pressed is a non-issue - if he thinks that everything is already doomed regardless of whether the action is taken (given that he\\\'s dying and knows that he failed at what he tried to do, a reasonable assumption), then he really wouldn\\\'t care. So I think he\\\'s an easy removal.\\\"
His point about the chatbot is key; your arguement is that only a self-aware mind could call someone a pawn. 32 could make a chatbot that was programmed to belittle you and consider you beneath it, that doesn\\\'t mean it\\\'s self-aware. Same argument applies to the Patriot AIs. They were created by Zero to carry out his will, and \\\'\\\'\\\'he considered people to be pawns.\\\'\\\'\\\' Who is to say that Zero did not have the AIs programed to share his view on people? The Patriots share his vision of a world united, and they (in MetalGearSolid2 at least) share his methods in achieving his ends.
The bit about characters having disgust and anger towards the Patriots is irrelevant; half of them didn\\\'t even know the Patriots were AI (they were under the impression that they were the Wiseman\\\'s committe). And a person can express disgust and anger towards a hurricane, that doesn\\\'t change the fact that a hurricane isn\\\'t self-aware or even alive.
Finally, I must go to the end of MetalGearSolid4 and Big Boss\\\' said on them; \\\"In the end they\\\'re only a program. They can only repeat the same patterns over and over again.\\\" He, who suffered the most at the hands of the Patriot\\\'s system, didn\\\'t view them as sentient beings but rather just a program. You say that they have to be self-aware to call humans pawns? Zero programmed them to share his opinion on humans (evidenced by EVA saying he lost faith in humans and by the fact that he does use several people as pawns throughout the entire series) and that they were programmed to treat humans as pawns. Simple as that.
As for Coldman, again he does sincerely believe in what he\\\'s saying; that humans are incapable of ending the world, and thus MAD was broken and if the Soviets ever launched a nuclear strike Washington would not retaliate. His last word was \\\"Peace\\\" too. He seems to believe that all of his actions were for the good of the United States. Tropers are confusing \\\"Utter Bastard\\\" with \\\"No redeeming qualities period, does evil things for the sake of evil things, has no reasonable justification or excuse, nor any sort of goal beyond their own selfish reasons.\\\" So while Coldman is a bastard and ultimately on the wrong side of grey, he does have a small glimmer of aultustic qualities in him, which is enough to Disqualify him.
So at the moment for the Patriots we have a 2-to-1 concensses in favour of them being on the list (with 32 wanting a line for the mind-screw factor), and a 2-to-1 concenses against Hot Coldman. I don\\\'t suppose you know anyone else who could chime in on this discussion? I feel like these two examples need more people to look them over.
Changed line(s) 3 from:
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to:
* \\\"Okay, after going through that loopy conversation about Metal Gear characters, here\\\'s my thoughts.
\\\\\\\\
We technically left out one aspect of Complete Monster, most likely because we never saw a need for it. Basically, the character in question has to be perfectly willing to perform these actions. An artificial intelligence has to reach the point of being able to make acts of true volition in order to be able to perform an act that would qualify for this trope. So the question really is, are the AI characters in Metal Gear capable of willful actions?
\\\\\\\\
The big problem here is that the game has screwed enough minds that it really is impossible to say. EJ01 makes some absurdly specious arguments about whether or not an AI can call a person a pawn if it\\\'s truly capable of volition \\\'\\\'\\\'(I can make a chatbot call people pawns today; this does not make a chatbot a Complete Monster)\\\'\\\'\\\'. That said, the flip side is that, between mind screws and flat out lies, we can\\\'t be sure if the information saying that they were incapable of such in the fourth game was true. For that matter, given some of the absurd super-science going on in the game (which they deliberately played up), it\\\'s quite reasonable from the series to conclude that it did develop volition and the people interacting with it simply didn\\\'t know.
So the shortest answer is, Kojima deliberately made it a giant mess that we can\\\'t adequately answer.
Since the idea that said AI constructs have true volition is at least plausible in the universe in question, I say that we hedge and say something along the lines of \\\"If it turns out that artificial intelligence in this setting can act on its own volition...\\\" in the description. We acknowledge the Mind Screw involved as well as not making a stand on it, while noting that such actions from a character with volition do count for this trope. Does that sound reasonable?
As for Coldman, I think he\\\'s a much easier case. It doesn\\\'t matter whether or not the character actually is right. If he thinks he is acting in the best interests of someone other than him, that\\\'s being a Well-Intentioned Extremist and disqualified for the trope. The bit about his not caring about whether the button is pressed is a non-issue - if he thinks that everything is already doomed regardless of whether the action is taken (given that he\\\'s dying and knows that he failed at what he tried to do, a reasonable assumption), then he really wouldn\\\'t care. So I think he\\\'s an easy removal.\\\"
His point about the chatbot is key; your arguement is that only a self-aware mind could call someone a pawn. 32 could make a chatbot that was programmed to belittle you and consider you beneath it, that doesn\\\'t mean it\\\'s self-aware. Same argument applies to the Patriot AIs. They were created by Zero to carry out his will, and \\\'\\\'\\\'he considered people to be pawns.\\\'\\\'\\\' Who is to say that Zero did not have the AIs programed to share his view on people? The Patriots share his vision of a world united, and they (in MetalGearSolid2 at least) share his methods in achieving his ends.
The bit about characters having disgust and anger towards the Patriots is irrelevant; half of them didn\\\'t even know the Patriots were AI (they were under the impression that they were the Wiseman\\\'s committe). And a person can express disgust and anger towards a hurricane, that doesn\\\'t change the fact that a hurricane isn\\\'t self-aware or even alive.
Finally, I must go to the end of MetalGearSolid4 and Big Boss\\\' said on them; \\\"In the end they\\\'re only a program. They can only repeat the same patterns over and over again.\\\" He, who suffered the most at the hands of the Patriot\\\'s system, didn\\\'t view them as sentient beings but rather just a program. You say that they have to be self-aware to call humans pawns? Zero programmed them to share his opinion on humans (evidenced by EVA saying he lost faith in humans and by the fact that he does use several people as pawns throughout the entire series) and that they were programmed to treat humans as pawns. Simple as that.
As for Coldman, again he does sincerely believe in what he\\\'s saying; that humans are incapable of ending the world, and thus MAD was broken and if the Soviets ever launched a nuclear strike Washington would not retaliate. His last word was \\\"Peace\\\" too. He seems to believe that all of his actions were for the good of the United States. Tropers are confusing \\\"Utter Bastard\\\" with \\\"No redeeming qualities period, does evil things for the sake of evil things, has no reasonable justification or excuse, nor any sort of goal beyond their own selfish reasons.\\\" So while Coldman is a bastard and ultimately on the wrong side of grey, he does have a small glimmer of aultustic qualities in him, which is enough to Disqualify him.
So at the moment for the Patriots we have a 2-to-1 concensses in favour of them being on the list (with 32 wanting a line for the mind-screw factor), and a 2-to-1 concenses against Hot Coldman. I don\\\'t suppose you know anyone else who could chime in on this discussion? I feel like these two examples need more people to look them over.
\\\\\\\\
We technically left out one aspect of Complete Monster, most likely because we never saw a need for it. Basically, the character in question has to be perfectly willing to perform these actions. An artificial intelligence has to reach the point of being able to make acts of true volition in order to be able to perform an act that would qualify for this trope. So the question really is, are the AI characters in Metal Gear capable of willful actions?
\\\\\\\\
The big problem here is that the game has screwed enough minds that it really is impossible to say. EJ01 makes some absurdly specious arguments about whether or not an AI can call a person a pawn if it\\\'s truly capable of volition \\\'\\\'\\\'(I can make a chatbot call people pawns today; this does not make a chatbot a Complete Monster)\\\'\\\'\\\'. That said, the flip side is that, between mind screws and flat out lies, we can\\\'t be sure if the information saying that they were incapable of such in the fourth game was true. For that matter, given some of the absurd super-science going on in the game (which they deliberately played up), it\\\'s quite reasonable from the series to conclude that it did develop volition and the people interacting with it simply didn\\\'t know.
So the shortest answer is, Kojima deliberately made it a giant mess that we can\\\'t adequately answer.
Since the idea that said AI constructs have true volition is at least plausible in the universe in question, I say that we hedge and say something along the lines of \\\"If it turns out that artificial intelligence in this setting can act on its own volition...\\\" in the description. We acknowledge the Mind Screw involved as well as not making a stand on it, while noting that such actions from a character with volition do count for this trope. Does that sound reasonable?
As for Coldman, I think he\\\'s a much easier case. It doesn\\\'t matter whether or not the character actually is right. If he thinks he is acting in the best interests of someone other than him, that\\\'s being a Well-Intentioned Extremist and disqualified for the trope. The bit about his not caring about whether the button is pressed is a non-issue - if he thinks that everything is already doomed regardless of whether the action is taken (given that he\\\'s dying and knows that he failed at what he tried to do, a reasonable assumption), then he really wouldn\\\'t care. So I think he\\\'s an easy removal.\\\"
His point about the chatbot is key; your arguement is that only a self-aware mind could call someone a pawn. 32 could make a chatbot that was programmed to belittle you and consider you beneath it, that doesn\\\'t mean it\\\'s self-aware. Same argument applies to the Patriot AIs. They were created by Zero to carry out his will, and \\\'\\\'\\\'he considered people to be pawns.\\\'\\\'\\\' Who is to say that Zero did not have the AIs programed to share his view on people? The Patriots share his vision of a world united, and they (in MetalGearSolid2 at least) share his methods in achieving his ends.
The bit about characters having disgust and anger towards the Patriots is irrelevant; half of them didn\\\'t even know the Patriots were AI (they were under the impression that they were the Wiseman\\\'s committe). And a person can express disgust and anger towards a hurricane, that doesn\\\'t change the fact that a hurricane isn\\\'t self-aware or even alive.
Finally, I must go to the end of MetalGearSolid4 and Big Boss\\\' said on them; \\\"In the end they\\\'re only a program. They can only repeat the same patterns over and over again.\\\" He, who suffered the most at the hands of the Patriot\\\'s system, didn\\\'t view them as sentient beings but rather just a program. You say that they have to be self-aware to call humans pawns? Zero programmed them to share his opinion on humans (evidenced by EVA saying he lost faith in humans and by the fact that he does use several people as pawns throughout the entire series) and that they were programmed to treat humans as pawns. Simple as that.
As for Coldman, again he does sincerely believe in what he\\\'s saying; that humans are incapable of ending the world, and thus MAD was broken and if the Soviets ever launched a nuclear strike Washington would not retaliate. His last word was \\\"Peace\\\" too. He seems to believe that all of his actions were for the good of the United States. Tropers are confusing \\\"Utter Bastard\\\" with \\\"No redeeming qualities period, does evil things for the sake of evil things, has no reasonable justification or excuse, nor any sort of goal beyond their own selfish reasons.\\\" So while Coldman is a bastard and ultimately on the wrong side of grey, he does have a small glimmer of aultustic qualities in him, which is enough to Disqualify him.
So at the moment for the Patriots we have a 2-to-1 concensses in favour of them being on the list (with 32 wanting a line for the mind-screw factor), and a 2-to-1 concenses against Hot Coldman. I don\\\'t suppose you know anyone else who could chime in on this discussion? I feel like these two examples need more people to look them over.
Changed line(s) 3 from:
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to:
* \\\"Okay, after going through that loopy conversation about Metal Gear characters, here\\\'s my thoughts.
//
We technically left out one aspect of Complete Monster, most likely because we never saw a need for it. Basically, the character in question has to be perfectly willing to perform these actions. An artificial intelligence has to reach the point of being able to make acts of true volition in order to be able to perform an act that would qualify for this trope. So the question really is, are the AI characters in Metal Gear capable of willful actions?
//
The big problem here is that the game has screwed enough minds that it really is impossible to say. EJ01 makes some absurdly specious arguments about whether or not an AI can call a person a pawn if it\\\'s truly capable of volition \\\'\\\'\\\'(I can make a chatbot call people pawns today; this does not make a chatbot a Complete Monster)\\\'\\\'\\\'. That said, the flip side is that, between mind screws and flat out lies, we can\\\'t be sure if the information saying that they were incapable of such in the fourth game was true. For that matter, given some of the absurd super-science going on in the game (which they deliberately played up), it\\\'s quite reasonable from the series to conclude that it did develop volition and the people interacting with it simply didn\\\'t know.
So the shortest answer is, Kojima deliberately made it a giant mess that we can\\\'t adequately answer.
Since the idea that said AI constructs have true volition is at least plausible in the universe in question, I say that we hedge and say something along the lines of \\\"If it turns out that artificial intelligence in this setting can act on its own volition...\\\" in the description. We acknowledge the Mind Screw involved as well as not making a stand on it, while noting that such actions from a character with volition do count for this trope. Does that sound reasonable?
As for Coldman, I think he\\\'s a much easier case. It doesn\\\'t matter whether or not the character actually is right. If he thinks he is acting in the best interests of someone other than him, that\\\'s being a Well-Intentioned Extremist and disqualified for the trope. The bit about his not caring about whether the button is pressed is a non-issue - if he thinks that everything is already doomed regardless of whether the action is taken (given that he\\\'s dying and knows that he failed at what he tried to do, a reasonable assumption), then he really wouldn\\\'t care. So I think he\\\'s an easy removal.\\\"
His point about the chatbot is key; your arguement is that only a self-aware mind could call someone a pawn. 32 could make a chatbot that was programmed to belittle you and consider you beneath it, that doesn\\\'t mean it\\\'s self-aware. Same argument applies to the Patriot AIs. They were created by Zero to carry out his will, and \\\'\\\'\\\'he considered people to be pawns.\\\'\\\'\\\' Who is to say that Zero did not have the AIs programed to share his view on people? The Patriots share his vision of a world united, and they (in MetalGearSolid2 at least) share his methods in achieving his ends.
The bit about characters having disgust and anger towards the Patriots is irrelevant; half of them didn\\\'t even know the Patriots were AI (they were under the impression that they were the Wiseman\\\'s committe). And a person can express disgust and anger towards a hurricane, that doesn\\\'t change the fact that a hurricane isn\\\'t self-aware or even alive.
Finally, I must go to the end of MetalGearSolid4 and Big Boss\\\' said on them; \\\"In the end they\\\'re only a program. They can only repeat the same patterns over and over again.\\\" He, who suffered the most at the hands of the Patriot\\\'s system, didn\\\'t view them as sentient beings but rather just a program. You say that they have to be self-aware to call humans pawns? Zero programmed them to share his opinion on humans (evidenced by EVA saying he lost faith in humans and by the fact that he does use several people as pawns throughout the entire series) and that they were programmed to treat humans as pawns. Simple as that.
As for Coldman, again he does sincerely believe in what he\\\'s saying; that humans are incapable of ending the world, and thus MAD was broken and if the Soviets ever launched a nuclear strike Washington would not retaliate. His last word was \\\"Peace\\\" too. He seems to believe that all of his actions were for the good of the United States. Tropers are confusing \\\"Utter Bastard\\\" with \\\"No redeeming qualities period, does evil things for the sake of evil things, has no reasonable justification or excuse, nor any sort of goal beyond their own selfish reasons.\\\" So while Coldman is a bastard and ultimately on the wrong side of grey, he does have a small glimmer of aultustic qualities in him, which is enough to Disqualify him.
So at the moment for the Patriots we have a 2-to-1 concensses in favour of them being on the list (with 32 wanting a line for the mind-screw factor), and a 2-to-1 concenses against Hot Coldman. I don\\\'t suppose you know anyone else who could chime in on this discussion? I feel like these two examples need more people to look them over.
//
We technically left out one aspect of Complete Monster, most likely because we never saw a need for it. Basically, the character in question has to be perfectly willing to perform these actions. An artificial intelligence has to reach the point of being able to make acts of true volition in order to be able to perform an act that would qualify for this trope. So the question really is, are the AI characters in Metal Gear capable of willful actions?
//
The big problem here is that the game has screwed enough minds that it really is impossible to say. EJ01 makes some absurdly specious arguments about whether or not an AI can call a person a pawn if it\\\'s truly capable of volition \\\'\\\'\\\'(I can make a chatbot call people pawns today; this does not make a chatbot a Complete Monster)\\\'\\\'\\\'. That said, the flip side is that, between mind screws and flat out lies, we can\\\'t be sure if the information saying that they were incapable of such in the fourth game was true. For that matter, given some of the absurd super-science going on in the game (which they deliberately played up), it\\\'s quite reasonable from the series to conclude that it did develop volition and the people interacting with it simply didn\\\'t know.
So the shortest answer is, Kojima deliberately made it a giant mess that we can\\\'t adequately answer.
Since the idea that said AI constructs have true volition is at least plausible in the universe in question, I say that we hedge and say something along the lines of \\\"If it turns out that artificial intelligence in this setting can act on its own volition...\\\" in the description. We acknowledge the Mind Screw involved as well as not making a stand on it, while noting that such actions from a character with volition do count for this trope. Does that sound reasonable?
As for Coldman, I think he\\\'s a much easier case. It doesn\\\'t matter whether or not the character actually is right. If he thinks he is acting in the best interests of someone other than him, that\\\'s being a Well-Intentioned Extremist and disqualified for the trope. The bit about his not caring about whether the button is pressed is a non-issue - if he thinks that everything is already doomed regardless of whether the action is taken (given that he\\\'s dying and knows that he failed at what he tried to do, a reasonable assumption), then he really wouldn\\\'t care. So I think he\\\'s an easy removal.\\\"
His point about the chatbot is key; your arguement is that only a self-aware mind could call someone a pawn. 32 could make a chatbot that was programmed to belittle you and consider you beneath it, that doesn\\\'t mean it\\\'s self-aware. Same argument applies to the Patriot AIs. They were created by Zero to carry out his will, and \\\'\\\'\\\'he considered people to be pawns.\\\'\\\'\\\' Who is to say that Zero did not have the AIs programed to share his view on people? The Patriots share his vision of a world united, and they (in MetalGearSolid2 at least) share his methods in achieving his ends.
The bit about characters having disgust and anger towards the Patriots is irrelevant; half of them didn\\\'t even know the Patriots were AI (they were under the impression that they were the Wiseman\\\'s committe). And a person can express disgust and anger towards a hurricane, that doesn\\\'t change the fact that a hurricane isn\\\'t self-aware or even alive.
Finally, I must go to the end of MetalGearSolid4 and Big Boss\\\' said on them; \\\"In the end they\\\'re only a program. They can only repeat the same patterns over and over again.\\\" He, who suffered the most at the hands of the Patriot\\\'s system, didn\\\'t view them as sentient beings but rather just a program. You say that they have to be self-aware to call humans pawns? Zero programmed them to share his opinion on humans (evidenced by EVA saying he lost faith in humans and by the fact that he does use several people as pawns throughout the entire series) and that they were programmed to treat humans as pawns. Simple as that.
As for Coldman, again he does sincerely believe in what he\\\'s saying; that humans are incapable of ending the world, and thus MAD was broken and if the Soviets ever launched a nuclear strike Washington would not retaliate. His last word was \\\"Peace\\\" too. He seems to believe that all of his actions were for the good of the United States. Tropers are confusing \\\"Utter Bastard\\\" with \\\"No redeeming qualities period, does evil things for the sake of evil things, has no reasonable justification or excuse, nor any sort of goal beyond their own selfish reasons.\\\" So while Coldman is a bastard and ultimately on the wrong side of grey, he does have a small glimmer of aultustic qualities in him, which is enough to Disqualify him.
So at the moment for the Patriots we have a 2-to-1 concensses in favour of them being on the list (with 32 wanting a line for the mind-screw factor), and a 2-to-1 concenses against Hot Coldman. I don\\\'t suppose you know anyone else who could chime in on this discussion? I feel like these two examples need more people to look them over.
Changed line(s) 3 from:
n
\
to:
* \\\"Okay, after going through that loopy conversation about Metal Gear characters, here\\\'s my thoughts.
\\\\\\\\
We technically left out one aspect of Complete Monster, most likely because we never saw a need for it. Basically, the character in question has to be perfectly willing to perform these actions. An artificial intelligence has to reach the point of being able to make acts of true volition in order to be able to perform an act that would qualify for this trope. So the question really is, are the AI characters in Metal Gear capable of willful actions?
The big problem here is that the game has screwed enough minds that it really is impossible to say. EJ01 makes some absurdly specious arguments about whether or not an AI can call a person a pawn if it\\\'s truly capable of volition \\\'\\\'\\\'(I can make a chatbot call people pawns today; this does not make a chatbot a Complete Monster)\\\'\\\'\\\'. That said, the flip side is that, between mind screws and flat out lies, we can\\\'t be sure if the information saying that they were incapable of such in the fourth game was true. For that matter, given some of the absurd super-science going on in the game (which they deliberately played up), it\\\'s quite reasonable from the series to conclude that it did develop volition and the people interacting with it simply didn\\\'t know.
So the shortest answer is, Kojima deliberately made it a giant mess that we can\\\'t adequately answer.
Since the idea that said AI constructs have true volition is at least plausible in the universe in question, I say that we hedge and say something along the lines of \\\"If it turns out that artificial intelligence in this setting can act on its own volition...\\\" in the description. We acknowledge the Mind Screw involved as well as not making a stand on it, while noting that such actions from a character with volition do count for this trope. Does that sound reasonable?
As for Coldman, I think he\\\'s a much easier case. It doesn\\\'t matter whether or not the character actually is right. If he thinks he is acting in the best interests of someone other than him, that\\\'s being a Well-Intentioned Extremist and disqualified for the trope. The bit about his not caring about whether the button is pressed is a non-issue - if he thinks that everything is already doomed regardless of whether the action is taken (given that he\\\'s dying and knows that he failed at what he tried to do, a reasonable assumption), then he really wouldn\\\'t care. So I think he\\\'s an easy removal.\\\"
His point about the chatbot is key; your arguement is that only a self-aware mind could call someone a pawn. 32 could make a chatbot that was programmed to belittle you and consider you beneath it, that doesn\\\'t mean it\\\'s self-aware. Same argument applies to the Patriot AIs. They were created by Zero to carry out his will, and \\\'\\\'\\\'he considered people to be pawns.\\\'\\\'\\\' Who is to say that Zero did not have the AIs programed to share his view on people? The Patriots share his vision of a world united, and they (in MetalGearSolid2 at least) share his methods in achieving his ends.
The bit about characters having disgust and anger towards the Patriots is irrelevant; half of them didn\\\'t even know the Patriots were AI (they were under the impression that they were the Wiseman\\\'s committe). And a person can express disgust and anger towards a hurricane, that doesn\\\'t change the fact that a hurricane isn\\\'t self-aware or even alive.
Finally, I must go to the end of MetalGearSolid4 and Big Boss\\\' said on them; \\\"In the end they\\\'re only a program. They can only repeat the same patterns over and over again.\\\" He, who suffered the most at the hands of the Patriot\\\'s system, didn\\\'t view them as sentient beings but rather just a program. You say that they have to be self-aware to call humans pawns? Zero programmed them to share his opinion on humans (evidenced by EVA saying he lost faith in humans and by the fact that he does use several people as pawns throughout the entire series) and that they were programmed to treat humans as pawns. Simple as that.
As for Coldman, again he does sincerely believe in what he\\\'s saying; that humans are incapable of ending the world, and thus MAD was broken and if the Soviets ever launched a nuclear strike Washington would not retaliate. His last word was \\\"Peace\\\" too. He seems to believe that all of his actions were for the good of the United States. Tropers are confusing \\\"Utter Bastard\\\" with \\\"No redeeming qualities period, does evil things for the sake of evil things, has no reasonable justification or excuse, nor any sort of goal beyond their own selfish reasons.\\\" So while Coldman is a bastard and ultimately on the wrong side of grey, he does have a small glimmer of aultustic qualities in him, which is enough to Disqualify him.
So at the moment for the Patriots we have a 2-to-1 concensses in favour of them being on the list (with 32 wanting a line for the mind-screw factor), and a 2-to-1 concenses against Hot Coldman. I don\\\'t suppose you know anyone else who could chime in on this discussion? I feel like these two examples need more people to look them over.
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We technically left out one aspect of Complete Monster, most likely because we never saw a need for it. Basically, the character in question has to be perfectly willing to perform these actions. An artificial intelligence has to reach the point of being able to make acts of true volition in order to be able to perform an act that would qualify for this trope. So the question really is, are the AI characters in Metal Gear capable of willful actions?
The big problem here is that the game has screwed enough minds that it really is impossible to say. EJ01 makes some absurdly specious arguments about whether or not an AI can call a person a pawn if it\\\'s truly capable of volition \\\'\\\'\\\'(I can make a chatbot call people pawns today; this does not make a chatbot a Complete Monster)\\\'\\\'\\\'. That said, the flip side is that, between mind screws and flat out lies, we can\\\'t be sure if the information saying that they were incapable of such in the fourth game was true. For that matter, given some of the absurd super-science going on in the game (which they deliberately played up), it\\\'s quite reasonable from the series to conclude that it did develop volition and the people interacting with it simply didn\\\'t know.
So the shortest answer is, Kojima deliberately made it a giant mess that we can\\\'t adequately answer.
Since the idea that said AI constructs have true volition is at least plausible in the universe in question, I say that we hedge and say something along the lines of \\\"If it turns out that artificial intelligence in this setting can act on its own volition...\\\" in the description. We acknowledge the Mind Screw involved as well as not making a stand on it, while noting that such actions from a character with volition do count for this trope. Does that sound reasonable?
As for Coldman, I think he\\\'s a much easier case. It doesn\\\'t matter whether or not the character actually is right. If he thinks he is acting in the best interests of someone other than him, that\\\'s being a Well-Intentioned Extremist and disqualified for the trope. The bit about his not caring about whether the button is pressed is a non-issue - if he thinks that everything is already doomed regardless of whether the action is taken (given that he\\\'s dying and knows that he failed at what he tried to do, a reasonable assumption), then he really wouldn\\\'t care. So I think he\\\'s an easy removal.\\\"
His point about the chatbot is key; your arguement is that only a self-aware mind could call someone a pawn. 32 could make a chatbot that was programmed to belittle you and consider you beneath it, that doesn\\\'t mean it\\\'s self-aware. Same argument applies to the Patriot AIs. They were created by Zero to carry out his will, and \\\'\\\'\\\'he considered people to be pawns.\\\'\\\'\\\' Who is to say that Zero did not have the AIs programed to share his view on people? The Patriots share his vision of a world united, and they (in MetalGearSolid2 at least) share his methods in achieving his ends.
The bit about characters having disgust and anger towards the Patriots is irrelevant; half of them didn\\\'t even know the Patriots were AI (they were under the impression that they were the Wiseman\\\'s committe). And a person can express disgust and anger towards a hurricane, that doesn\\\'t change the fact that a hurricane isn\\\'t self-aware or even alive.
Finally, I must go to the end of MetalGearSolid4 and Big Boss\\\' said on them; \\\"In the end they\\\'re only a program. They can only repeat the same patterns over and over again.\\\" He, who suffered the most at the hands of the Patriot\\\'s system, didn\\\'t view them as sentient beings but rather just a program. You say that they have to be self-aware to call humans pawns? Zero programmed them to share his opinion on humans (evidenced by EVA saying he lost faith in humans and by the fact that he does use several people as pawns throughout the entire series) and that they were programmed to treat humans as pawns. Simple as that.
As for Coldman, again he does sincerely believe in what he\\\'s saying; that humans are incapable of ending the world, and thus MAD was broken and if the Soviets ever launched a nuclear strike Washington would not retaliate. His last word was \\\"Peace\\\" too. He seems to believe that all of his actions were for the good of the United States. Tropers are confusing \\\"Utter Bastard\\\" with \\\"No redeeming qualities period, does evil things for the sake of evil things, has no reasonable justification or excuse, nor any sort of goal beyond their own selfish reasons.\\\" So while Coldman is a bastard and ultimately on the wrong side of grey, he does have a small glimmer of aultustic qualities in him, which is enough to Disqualify him.
So at the moment for the Patriots we have a 2-to-1 concensses in favour of them being on the list (with 32 wanting a line for the mind-screw factor), and a 2-to-1 concenses against Hot Coldman. I don\\\'t suppose you know anyone else who could chime in on this discussion? I feel like these two examples need more people to look them over.
