[002]
ZenimaxShakespere
Current Version
Changed line(s) 5 from:
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Masser: Explain that bit about \
to:
Masser: Explain that bit about \\\"golems are actually weak to magic\\\"? That\\\'s blowing my mind.
Secunda: Most people see the words \\\"Magic Immunity\\\" and logically conclude that makes golems immune to magic. A reasonable conclusion. But if you actually read the definition of the ability, what it actually says is that golems are immune to all spells \\\'\\\'that allow Spell Resistance\\\'\\\', with a handful of exceptions specified. Which means it\\\'s a gigantic misnomer.
What it actually means is that golems effectively have infinite SR, with a few exceptions. Of course, SR is a joke, so even having an infinite amount of it is still a joke. Consequently you cast \\\'\\\'SR: No\\\'\\\' spells, of which there are plenty. Now check their Saving Throw lines. See how terrible they are?
\\\"Golems are weak to magic.\\\"
QED.
Masser: I know how SR works, I wasn\\\'t asking that. And what you say is largely technically true but I just don\\\'t see \\\"Golems are \\\'\\\'weak\\\'\\\' to magic\\\" as a proper conclusion to what you are saying. Being effectively immune to half the spells in the game and having \\\"standard\\\" resistances to the rest doesn\\\'t seem weak at all to me. I\\\'m not saying that golems are unbeatable or should be considered the creatures MOST resistant to magic in the game but weak? Where\\\'s the weakness?
Secunda: They have terrible saves. All of the good spells[1][2] still work. What is difficult to understand?
To be good against magic they would need to have one of the following:
Immunity to ALL spells. Which is actually impossible, as even if they are immune to all direct spells you can still use spells indirectly.
High saves, not low saves.
They have neither of these things. So golems laugh at blasters (casters who use magic missile and fireball, which is far less effective to casting spells like color spray, black tentacles, haste, invisibility, levitate, wall of stone, charm person...) a little harder than other encounters laugh at them. The competent casters[1][2] do not care.
[1] http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9749.0
[2] http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394
Masser2: I think his point is that blanket immunity to a category of spells is a strict improvement from the normal situation. They aren\\\'t particularly weak to magic, except to the same extent Undead are (by virtue of crappy hit dice, which they tend to have lots of as a mitigating factor). That their immunity doesn\\\'t actually serve to PROTECT them very well doesn\\\'t mean it accomplishes the opposite.
Secunda: Undead have good Will saves, which is half the battle. They are also outright immune to many of the good spells. This includes the same spells that Constructs are immune to, but is not limited to them. Most undead are intelligent. This makes them immune to many more shutdowns.
Seeing a golem at any level provokes the following response: \\\"Cute, I cast Silent Image/Obscuring Mist/Glitterdust from a throwaway slot, and auto win. Now where\\\'s the nearby Wizard?\\\"
Masser: Good point. Mindlessness does kinda mean \\\"Auto-lose to illusions\\\". I ever mention the time my party killed a Greater Siege Crab with Silent Image? Good times.
Secunda: Most people see the words \\\"Magic Immunity\\\" and logically conclude that makes golems immune to magic. A reasonable conclusion. But if you actually read the definition of the ability, what it actually says is that golems are immune to all spells \\\'\\\'that allow Spell Resistance\\\'\\\', with a handful of exceptions specified. Which means it\\\'s a gigantic misnomer.
What it actually means is that golems effectively have infinite SR, with a few exceptions. Of course, SR is a joke, so even having an infinite amount of it is still a joke. Consequently you cast \\\'\\\'SR: No\\\'\\\' spells, of which there are plenty. Now check their Saving Throw lines. See how terrible they are?
\\\"Golems are weak to magic.\\\"
QED.
Masser: I know how SR works, I wasn\\\'t asking that. And what you say is largely technically true but I just don\\\'t see \\\"Golems are \\\'\\\'weak\\\'\\\' to magic\\\" as a proper conclusion to what you are saying. Being effectively immune to half the spells in the game and having \\\"standard\\\" resistances to the rest doesn\\\'t seem weak at all to me. I\\\'m not saying that golems are unbeatable or should be considered the creatures MOST resistant to magic in the game but weak? Where\\\'s the weakness?
Secunda: They have terrible saves. All of the good spells[1][2] still work. What is difficult to understand?
To be good against magic they would need to have one of the following:
Immunity to ALL spells. Which is actually impossible, as even if they are immune to all direct spells you can still use spells indirectly.
High saves, not low saves.
They have neither of these things. So golems laugh at blasters (casters who use magic missile and fireball, which is far less effective to casting spells like color spray, black tentacles, haste, invisibility, levitate, wall of stone, charm person...) a little harder than other encounters laugh at them. The competent casters[1][2] do not care.
[1] http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9749.0
[2] http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394
Masser2: I think his point is that blanket immunity to a category of spells is a strict improvement from the normal situation. They aren\\\'t particularly weak to magic, except to the same extent Undead are (by virtue of crappy hit dice, which they tend to have lots of as a mitigating factor). That their immunity doesn\\\'t actually serve to PROTECT them very well doesn\\\'t mean it accomplishes the opposite.
Secunda: Undead have good Will saves, which is half the battle. They are also outright immune to many of the good spells. This includes the same spells that Constructs are immune to, but is not limited to them. Most undead are intelligent. This makes them immune to many more shutdowns.
Seeing a golem at any level provokes the following response: \\\"Cute, I cast Silent Image/Obscuring Mist/Glitterdust from a throwaway slot, and auto win. Now where\\\'s the nearby Wizard?\\\"
Masser: Good point. Mindlessness does kinda mean \\\"Auto-lose to illusions\\\". I ever mention the time my party killed a Greater Siege Crab with Silent Image? Good times.
Changed line(s) 5 from:
n
Masser: Explain that bit about \
to:
Masser: Explain that bit about \\\"golems are actually weak to magic\\\"? That\\\'s blowing my mind.
Secunda: Most people see the words \\\"Magic Immunity\\\" and logically conclude that makes golems immune to magic. A reasonable conclusion. But if you actually read the definition of the ability, what it actually says is that golems are immune to all spells \\\'\\\'that allow Spell Resistance\\\'\\\', with a handful of exceptions specified. Which means it\\\'s a gigantic misnomer.
What it actually means is that golems effectively have infinite SR, with a few exceptions. Of course, SR is a joke, so even having an infinite amount of it is still a joke. Consequently you cast \\\'\\\'SR: No\\\'\\\' spells, of which there are plenty. Now check their Saving Throw lines. See how terrible they are?
\\\"Golems are weak to magic.\\\"
QED.
Masser: I know how SR works, I wasn\\\'t asking that. And what you say is largely technically true but I just don\\\'t see \\\"Golems are \\\'\\\'weak\\\'\\\' to magic\\\" as a proper conclusion to what you are saying. Being effectively immune to half the spells in the game and having \\\"standard\\\" resistances to the rest doesn\\\'t seem weak at all to me. I\\\'m not saying that golems are unbeatable or should be considered the creatures MOST resistant to magic in the game but weak? Where\\\'s the weakness?
Secunda: They have terrible saves. All of the good spells[1][2] still work. What is difficult to understand?
To be good against magic they would need to have one of the following:
Immunity to ALL spells. Which is actually impossible, as even if they are immune to all direct spells you can still use spells indirectly.
High saves, not low saves.
They have neither of these things. So golems laugh at blasters (casters who use magic missile and fireball, which is far less effective to casting spells like color spray, glitterdust, black tentacles, haste, wall of stone, charm person...) a little harder than other encounters laugh at them. The competent casters[1][2] do not care.
[1] http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9749.0
[2] http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394
Masser2: I think his point is that blanket immunity to a category of spells is a strict improvement from the normal situation. They aren\\\'t particularly weak to magic, except to the same extent Undead are (by virtue of crappy hit dice, which they tend to have lots of as a mitigating factor). That their immunity doesn\\\'t actually serve to PROTECT them very well doesn\\\'t mean it accomplishes the opposite.
Secunda: Undead have good Will saves, which is half the battle. They are also outright immune to many of the good spells. This includes the same spells that Constructs are immune to, but is not limited to them. Most undead are intelligent. This makes them immune to many more shutdowns.
Seeing a golem at any level provokes the following response: \\\"Cute, I cast Silent Image/Obscuring Mist/Glitterdust from a throwaway slot, and auto win. Now where\\\'s the nearby Wizard?\\\"
Masser: Good point. Mindlessness does kinda mean \\\"Auto-lose to illusions\\\". I ever mention the time my party killed a Greater Siege Crab with Silent Image? Good times.
Secunda: Most people see the words \\\"Magic Immunity\\\" and logically conclude that makes golems immune to magic. A reasonable conclusion. But if you actually read the definition of the ability, what it actually says is that golems are immune to all spells \\\'\\\'that allow Spell Resistance\\\'\\\', with a handful of exceptions specified. Which means it\\\'s a gigantic misnomer.
What it actually means is that golems effectively have infinite SR, with a few exceptions. Of course, SR is a joke, so even having an infinite amount of it is still a joke. Consequently you cast \\\'\\\'SR: No\\\'\\\' spells, of which there are plenty. Now check their Saving Throw lines. See how terrible they are?
\\\"Golems are weak to magic.\\\"
QED.
Masser: I know how SR works, I wasn\\\'t asking that. And what you say is largely technically true but I just don\\\'t see \\\"Golems are \\\'\\\'weak\\\'\\\' to magic\\\" as a proper conclusion to what you are saying. Being effectively immune to half the spells in the game and having \\\"standard\\\" resistances to the rest doesn\\\'t seem weak at all to me. I\\\'m not saying that golems are unbeatable or should be considered the creatures MOST resistant to magic in the game but weak? Where\\\'s the weakness?
Secunda: They have terrible saves. All of the good spells[1][2] still work. What is difficult to understand?
To be good against magic they would need to have one of the following:
Immunity to ALL spells. Which is actually impossible, as even if they are immune to all direct spells you can still use spells indirectly.
High saves, not low saves.
They have neither of these things. So golems laugh at blasters (casters who use magic missile and fireball, which is far less effective to casting spells like color spray, glitterdust, black tentacles, haste, wall of stone, charm person...) a little harder than other encounters laugh at them. The competent casters[1][2] do not care.
[1] http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9749.0
[2] http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394
Masser2: I think his point is that blanket immunity to a category of spells is a strict improvement from the normal situation. They aren\\\'t particularly weak to magic, except to the same extent Undead are (by virtue of crappy hit dice, which they tend to have lots of as a mitigating factor). That their immunity doesn\\\'t actually serve to PROTECT them very well doesn\\\'t mean it accomplishes the opposite.
Secunda: Undead have good Will saves, which is half the battle. They are also outright immune to many of the good spells. This includes the same spells that Constructs are immune to, but is not limited to them. Most undead are intelligent. This makes them immune to many more shutdowns.
Seeing a golem at any level provokes the following response: \\\"Cute, I cast Silent Image/Obscuring Mist/Glitterdust from a throwaway slot, and auto win. Now where\\\'s the nearby Wizard?\\\"
Masser: Good point. Mindlessness does kinda mean \\\"Auto-lose to illusions\\\". I ever mention the time my party killed a Greater Siege Crab with Silent Image? Good times.
