Catherine- from the creators of Persona

Ok explain to me how I’m wrong

How about we avoid talking about drama in other forums?

Edited by captainpat on Feb 21st 2019 at 8:22:47 AM

1) Citations Needed on all the things I hightlight.
2) It's a gaming forum. It's a goddamn gaming forum like tvtropes. It has no thread calling to throw people into gulags or whatnot.
3) The mods banned people who don't follow the rules. You can say that it's too strict (and I would disagree because I haven't seen it yet, because again, Citations Needed), but say that they're the real fascists? Really?
I agree. This is derailing the thread. This is potentially derailing the thread. I've said my piece and that's done. If anyone wants to see how much of a fascist they are, just go and see their site yourself. I find it not that much different from tvtropes.

Edited by HottoKenai on Feb 21st 2019 at 11:25:45 PM

You know what I don't like?

Where this is going.

...seriously, what?

Called the mods. That seems very much like a death threat to me.

so anyway after really looking at the ending and taking Rin's true ending into account, I don't think the issue was as bad as people were making it out to be. Still pretty problematic though but the stuff in persona 3, 4, 5, and the original Catherine content is much more damning about the Persona team's handling of lgbt issues.

I presume you’re talking about Kanji and Naoto (sigh) them being LGBT was not the point of their arcs. Their struggles were with gender norms and societies acceptance towards women

Pretty sure they mean the offensive humor of an older transwomam hitting on teenage boys and then the boys being all EW GROSS!!!! and those two gay guys in P5.

And well, there is no objective interpretation of a story. I don't do it but I don't hold it against people reading Naoto as trans. It's none of my business. Besides, trying to make her wear a dress is awful no matter if she's trans or just struggling with gender norms.

And, really, Chie is right there if you want a narrative about a girl struggling with societal expectations of being feminine and masculine. Naoto is rather redundant if you're just looking at things from that perspective.

Edited by Nikkolas on Feb 21st 2019 at 10:01:15 AM

Or maybe they're referencing the recurring gag about gays molesting one of the team members. You know the stuff that is legitimately stupid, and even though it's an easily ignored one-note scene, it also means it wasn't hard to excise it entirely from the plot.

oh well, nikkolas beat me to the punch at it.

Edited by Yumil on Feb 21st 2019 at 10:01:19 AM

Naoto actively dresses like a boy and likes things boys do. Whereas Chie is more of an athletic girl and more into being physical while liking feminine things.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Feb 21st 2019 at 10:01:51 AM

I understand and that's probably why Naoto is read as trans. But if it is just a commentary on gender and society as the poster said, Chie already does exactly that in the same game and Naoto adds really nothing.

It wasn't even the Naoto and Kanji story lines that bugged me. It was all the gay jokes and "no homo" stuff with Kanji and Yosuke. And yea the parts part in P3 were you're supposed to be grossed out by the transwoman hitting on you and the part in P5 were involving that camp gay couple hitting on Ryuji were really messed up. Especially since you can't even avoid those scenes.

Edited by captainpat on Feb 21st 2019 at 10:26:31 AM

Naoto doesn't want any of the girly things and she tends to get forced into it, while Chie is much more into girly things.

Naoto is someone comfortable with being a tomboy, while Chie always wants to be more feminine even when she accepts herself. Its a distinct difference.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Feb 21st 2019 at 10:37:52 AM

I still argue actually having Yosuke romance-able would have alleviated a lot of the "No homo" shit with him and kanji. because suddenly the framing becomes the character acting dumb to cover for his own insecurities instead of "lol no homo"

Edited by Jetyl on Feb 21st 2019 at 10:27:31 AM

Fair enough. You make a good point.

Yu and Yosuke is always going to be the OTP OF P4 and I think everyone knows it. It works on every level, including helping to redeem Yosuke's behavior.

Edited by Nikkolas on Feb 21st 2019 at 10:30:35 AM

I'm pretty sure what Atlus was doing with Naoto was just a commentary on police work being a male dominated profession. Naoto presenting herself as male has everything to do with wanting to be taken seriously as a detective, and nothing else. The idea being that she ultimately doesn't need to pretend to be a man to be a good detective.

Of course, Atlus botched it with the theming of Naoto's dungeon and her shadow which is a big part of why people guessed she might be trans. It's basically just bad communication of their idea.

Naoto wearing a schoolgirl uniform for you despite it being uncomfortable for her is gross though.

New Atlus Player Survey asking consumers and players about their products, including "Catherine".

Naoto has enjoyed boy things all her life. Even before she became a Detective.

I personally never saw it as her being trans. I have a sister who's unambiguously a cis female, and she often says stuff like "Boys have it so easy, I wish I was born a man". This is her talking about stuff like periods or having to wear high heels to events. So I identify Naoto's issues as basically this but amplified hundredfolds.

Plus you know, shadows and dungeons are distorted. Rise isn't an exhibitionist and Yukiko isn't a slutty damsel. A leap from "Men have it easier" to "Let's have a sex change!" is a perfectly valid shadow logic.

Yeah, and she doesn't need to reject that she's a girl who likes boyish things. I find her P 4 D costume a really good reflection of her development. It's her boyish summer uniform but she doesn't bind her breasts tightly anymore.

Edited by TrueShadow1 on Feb 21st 2019 at 11:20:18 AM

Hey guys what did I mi-

Anyway I'll repeat what I said about Naoto the last time we had this conversation: She was never meant to be about trans issues and was instead about gender discrimination in the workforce. You're not wrong to want or see Naoto as trans, but I don't think it's fair to blame the game for anything other than some accidental symbolism. What really went wrong was that romancing Naoto involves making her more docile and feminine to her overt discomfort purely for the player's indulgence.

It's different from Kanji's resolution being "lol no homo."

Edited by RodimusMinor on Feb 21st 2019 at 2:30:49 PM

I'm pretty sure we're all in agreement that Naoto wasn't intentionally written as being potentially transgender.

I think the primary point is the fact that even though we know this, the writing was tone-deaf enough to not make that clear and make it seem like a botched transgender issue.

... wait, did the Persona and Catherine threads get switched?

Edited by Larkmarn on Feb 21st 2019 at 2:43:45 PM

I genuinely thought this was the Persona thread tbh.

The theme of the dungeon being "evil scary sex change" comes across really badly when paired with the "actually I'm cis!" conclusion. And it just exacerbates the issues with No Homo-ing Kanji, since if the dude he likes is actually a girl then they can just sweep that aspect of him under the rug (unless they want to make shitty jokes about it).

(and frankly "I present as a different gender in everyday life but it's not because I actually want to, it's because of [Galaxy Brain Reason]" has very rarely been done well)