Touhou

You tried to say that Suwako traveling to Eientei counted as doing something. I don't even know what standards you're applying anymore.

Edit: Another example of Kanako doing something: bringing the shrine to Gensokyo. Suwako didn't do it - she was good with fading away. I doubt Sanae had the know-how. By process of elimination: Kanako moved a building from one location to another. Not a huge thing. I mean, Eirin walks around with a mansion in her pocket just in case and Remilia or more likely Patchy achieved the same thing with the SDM earlier but its still a thing.

edited 11th Oct '12 10:53:11 PM by Bocaj

Just stop talking. While the lengths you'll go to justify your poorly-thought-out ideas are somewhat amusing, we're really not getting anywhere

Since when I did ever say Suwako travelling to Eientei was doing something? I said creating the rain was doing something. I have never once considered the mere act of travelling doing something. If that was so, Kanako clearly travels, which you can see, since she did go to the Hakurei Shrine.

My ideas are me being objective(as objective as possible that is) with the evidence I see presented at hand. I could care less if Kanako or Suwako appears in the game. I merely believe Suwako is more likely to appear based on what I see.

By that same argument. Travelling from Youkai mountain is a feat in and of itself. Anyone who does it is considered as doing something. No, I don't buy that.

Convincing Utsuho to take power is not doing something. It is talking, which I have argued she is good at. She appears in the So PM talking quite a bit. She appears at the Hakurei shrine, once again, talking quite a bit.
Now, about this Yatagarasu. So, now she found the Yatagarasu too? How did she find this?

Yes, I don't think the reactor came out of nowhere. Now who built it, is the question, is it not? Provide proof that Kanako built this thing. Tell me you are 100% certain with canon proof that the Kappa did not do this. Tell me Suwako had no involvement in this whatsoever.

I think where Starx was coming from started somewhere around this quote in Suwako's SOPM entry.

This support's the idea that Suwako's doing the heavy lifting while Kanako looks on. Especially as in Kanako's "Ability" section, it again points out that Kanako does it through "Cooperation" with Suwako. Based on that, it's certainly reasonable that Suwako's got the divine muscle, while Kanako's got the keen mind. After all, Kanako defeated Suwako not with power, but by abusing a good power matchup; rather than squash Suwako flat, Kanako demoralized her instead... And then Kanako had trouble ruling the land she had just conquered...

Of course, the very next sentence suggests it's not exactly Suwako who's doing the heavy lifting.

Suwako is middle management, Kanako is the CEO, Sanae is Marketing, and the Mishaguji are the rank and file workers.

Also...

I can't help but imagine Cirno looking pointedly over Akyuu's shoulder as she writes that, given the poor fairy's experiences in BAIJR.

Now we know the real reason Kasen made the glowy-jewel tree. To distract Marisa from the really dangerous/awesome stuff at the Moriya Shrine. All those computers (With no power source), guns (with no ammunition), Mopeds (with no gasoline), flashlights (Dead Batteries included!)... why, if Marisa got ahold of those, just thing of what carnage she could dish out!

edited 12th Oct '12 12:00:11 AM by Antimatter625

She used hypnotism. Its much better and more active than just talking. Talking is for stupid people who don't do anything.

INDISPUTABLE EVIDENCE.◊

That is the smirk of the proactive right there. I'm an expert on smirks, you see.

Its interesting that one of the MOF endings has Marisa try to do the Marisa thing and steal all the things and she gets caught and "put through a wringer" by Kanako.

edited 11th Oct '12 11:58:59 PM by Bocaj

I guess Reimu didn't do anything on the way to Utsuho, in SA, then? The Former Hell isn't exactly the easiest place to travel through. Kanako would have to deal with the hazards of the place, same as anyone else. Like, I think it's rather self evident that going in and out of Hell intact and without alerting the resident mind-reader is a significant feat.

The mountain isn't exactly a very easy place for ordinary people to go to and from either, or didn't used to be, what with the Tengu trying to keep people out. It's easy for Kanako, of course, since she's kind of established herself as a major force in that area at this point.

edited 11th Oct '12 11:58:41 PM by Enlong

Well, she had a yatagarasu corpse. My personal headcanon was that she chatted it up with Yatagarasu and told it "Hey, I could really use a corpse of you. Got some plans, gonna try bringing nuclear energy to some primitives. Mind if I give it a go?" Of course nothing's free, and he wanted Kanako's corpse for some weather control, so they killed eachother, then part of their split divine spirit went and grabbed the promised corpses.

Also, as a god, she can just kinda... manifest at any one of her shrines. In addition to the one at the Hakurei shrine, she probably got at least a minor one in the village proper. And the temple That she helped build. It's like what Tenshi did; building living quarters for herself without people really realizing it.

Well Marisa goes regularly to the old hell to drink with Yuugi, But she is Marisa. yet Kanako and Byakuren also warned her about the dangers of the evil spirits that reside there.

Plus, the first time is always the hardest. She knows some of the youkai down there now.

Yes, I already conceded that as one of the instances in which Kanako did things. I believed I mentioned several times that Kanako hypnotized Utsuho as doing something, but I was looking for more than that.

No, I wouldn't count the act of traveling to Former Hell or climbing the youkai mountain doing anything. However, Reimu did plenty of fighting on the way with Tengu and with underground people, so that's doing quite a bit. If we counted traveling, then everyone would be doing a lot, which makes it a useless metric.

I extend this to even traveling to the moon and traveling to makai. The act of traveling is not doing something. However, the method to get the traveling possible was doing something, like how they needed to build a rocket to get to the moon.

Yukari is really the only one who complains about all that traveling. As seen in SWR where she was like this gap traveling is very tiresome.

With all this said. Kanako has always been a planner and a talker. This is what she is good at and this is I see her doing. Suwako and Sanae are more of the grunts who actually go around and do things, like solve incidents or stir things up. By that I meant directly and not indirectly, that would be more Kanako's thing.

This is the reason why I believe Suwako is more likely to be in the next game than Kanako, if one of them are going to make it. Now, I don't actually believe either will be in the next game.
Just take a look at precedence, if Kanako was a doer, she should have been in Soku and not Suwako.

And you don't think she did any fighting or met with any sort of resistance when she waltzed into Hell? I find that really hard to believe. The place is still full to the brim with evil spirits, confrontational youkai, and fire. And there wasn't any convenient elevator hatch at the time, like in Hisoutensoku. I'm not emphasizing "she traveled to Hell." I'm saying "She traveled to Hell." And once she made it to wherever

I think they chose Suwako so as to have an off-the-wall fighter, and thought that the froggy goddess was a better fit for that. Also, Suwako was probably due for a bit of limelight at the time.

We know that Kanako can fight in a physical sense. Sanae's moveset suggests several combat abilities of hers that would be expanded on were Kanako given a full moveset.

I mean, under that sort of criteria, did Suwako really do anything in Hisoutensoku, or that chapter of WAHH? She just talked to a bunch of kappa both times, right?

edited 12th Oct '12 12:36:29 AM by Enlong

That will be expanded upon, presumably.

Interestingly, though, only like 1 or 2 of the Suwako-summoning moves have equivalents in Suwako's actual moveset. She doesn't get the shield bubble or "hide like a landmine" thing.

edited 12th Oct '12 12:38:54 AM by Enlong

...Seriously, I need a conclusion about all these pages of discussion and debating.

And by the way, keyboard crusher Rumia

Wait wait wait. Doesn't this count as Kanako doing something?

edited 12th Oct '12 2:29:10 AM by asterism

And Byakuren's been revealed as slightly clueless about the vices of her companions.

So that's why we'll wait for Kanako to eventually have charisma break.

The longer it takes for her to have one, the better the effect.

"No, no, it's all under control, really. *sweatdrop*"

Why? Its already more things than Suwako has done. She fights Sanae but only after Sanae catches her making shady deals with the kappa - by which I mean Sanae is pissed off that the giant robot wasn't one and takes her frustration out on her god. So that's one fight. She's also the extra boss fight in MOF. After the protagonists come to her. She also fights Reisen in Inaba/Inaba - after Reisen attacks her. Otherwise, she's just as inactive as you claim Kanako is. She wanders around - traveling to places. She plans and has the kappa build the Hisoutensoku. What does she do besides fight back when people attack her and commission a whacky waving inflatable arm flailing tube man?

Nothing that we see.

Kanako fights the protagonists in MOF twice - once when they come to her and again to prevent them from bothering Suwako. She goes to talks with the tengu and the kappa. She dug up a yatagarasu corpse and hypnotized Utsuho into letting her stick it inside. She has a reactor built. She thinks the reactor is weaksauce so she organizes a cold fusion demonstration in which she provides science and ham to spectators. She acts as her faction's representative in the symposium. She commissions the kappa to build a dam and then takes over the project to stop them from blowing up her mountain. She moves the shrine to Gensokyo, she invades Suwako's lands.

She's a doer, she's a schemer, she's a talker. Whatever it takes to get her goals accomplished. If she can sway the village towards faith in her by staving in some of her rival's skulls, well no hard feelings, she'll send them some get well sake. Fighting is talking in Gensokyo and Kanako represents her shrine among the tengu and at the symposium so there's no reason why she wouldn't represent it now. She enlists Suwako's assistance on construction projects because Suwako can enlist some curse gods' assistance. But she has never sent Suwako to represent the faith. And since the name of the game is convincing people, she's probably going to handle this herself (+ Sanae).

By the way, festival and thus 'playing' in MOF were equated with danmaku matches.

edited 12th Oct '12 7:06:20 AM by Bocaj

Ruining the moment

What exactly are we arguing about? It seemed to have started as who would or would not be playable in HM, but it's spiraled off into a dozen different arguments that I don't really understand the point of.

edited 12th Oct '12 8:42:18 AM by XionGaTaosenai

^ Me too...then again topic drift always happens...right now it seems to be...something...about Kanako...

edited 12th Oct '12 8:54:56 AM by onyhow

I think it's "Is Kanako more, lees, or equally proactive than Suwako?"

I might be missing since nuances though

edited 12th Oct '12 8:59:36 AM by hnd03

That's exactly why I'm asking for a conclusion for all these debating some posts ago.

But I think we still got the quote of the year from Clarste.

edited 12th Oct '12 9:00:56 AM by tryourbreast