Jupiterian Local
Zeta and ZZ were both about various groups wanting to overthrow the Federation and seize control for themselves — nothing to do with newtypes, just would-be conquerors doing what would-be conquerors do. CCA is debatable, since Char explicitly invokes Deikun's newtype theory as justification for his actions, but there's plenty of reason to believe that Char is full of shit and there are other motivations for his actions, which I pointed out in an earlier post. CCA was certainly resolved with maximum newtype shenanigans, but "newtype shenanigans saved Earth" isn't the same thing as "the conflict was generated by humanity's Newtype awakening", which was your claim.
Unicorn is another case of assholes being assholes — the Sleeves wanted to use Laplace's Box as leverage to blackmail the Earth Federation, nothing newtype-y about that. Of course, the contents of the box turned out to be relevant to newtypes, but it's such a ridiculously blatant retcon that I admit that I have trouble taking it seriously.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Zeta involved two Newtype-supremacist organisations (Zeon and Jamitov's Titan inner circle) getting taken over by the exceptionally powerful Newtypes they had chosen to empower, bringing in a new kind of supernaturally charismatic dictator, while their main opposition were Deikunist moderates who sought a slow, free Newtype awakening outside the oppressive power structures of the old world. CCA is basically a hothouse of supernaturally-overheated Newtype emotions erupting into a conflict that kills hundreds, if not thousands - as individuals gain more power, their personal feelings begin to have vast social consequences. Unicorn is a three-way war between two factions who wish to use Newtypes as a control mechanism (in the case of Martha's faction, by weaponising them, and in the case of the Sleeves, by using Newtype necromancy to resurrect the dead in a more pliable form) and a group of dissidents who subvert a Newtype weapons programme in order to get the truth out about how Newtype freedom has been suppressed by the powers that be.
The transformation of humanity is pretty key to all three works.
What's precedent ever done for us?
Hmm, at least the pilot of Gremory appear to be a girl. So I can put down a pitchfork for now.
I may be out of the loop, but why should Gundam Gremory have a female pilot?
edited 25th Sep '17 10:03:57 PM by DarkHunter
Because out of 72 demons in Ars Goetia there're only two girls and the other one (Vepar) is mermaid. So Gremory is the most female among them.
In-Universe, are the Gundam frames named after the demons or does the Ars Goetia not exist in the verse?
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The Hope, The Hero
I'm pretty sure they're named after the demons. It's hard to come up with the exact same seals to represent them if said demons didn't exist.
Spelunking through a Halo Ring is something else...
They're named for the demons in-universe. It's revealed that the things the Gundams were originally built to fight were named after angels, so it fits the theme that the Gundams be named after demons.
Why they decided that exactly 72 Gundams were sufficient and necessary to win that war, no more and no less, is the more curious part. I know the Valkyrie-class mobile suits were designed to support them, but nobody wanted to make additional Gundams? Given the threat they were facing you'd think more would be better.
edited 26th Sep '17 6:31:17 AM by DarkHunter
Jupiterian Local
The Hope, The Hero
I would personally argue that Dáinsleifs deployed in a mass bombardment fashion was super taxing on resource gathering methods. You would think that with how durable the Gundam-Frame itself was, they were created with some super-secret method, like a super-refined version of half-metal.
Spelunking through a Halo Ring is something else...
We get through this already. But basically, remember Barbatos' final rampage despite being teared apart and implaed by dainsleif. Now imagine it's Hashmal instead of Barbatos, with unfeeling AI instead of bleeding (and eventually pass-out) Mika. NOW, add Pluma army which are likely able to pull those pikes out and repair Hashmal using them as material too. Also remember that while Hashmal might be Last of Its Kind, they were many of them back then, enough that we heard how the war badly damage the Moon and leaving tons of wrecks in shoal zone. So it's unlikely that orbital bombardment can be easily done as against Mika. And since Dainsleif Graze can't even reload the pike on it own, they're just beg to be teared apart by Pluma.
In fact, despite being fearsome weapon Dainselif isn't that good if you're inferior in number. Iok and Rustal have BIG advantage in number against Turbines/Tekkadan. So after launching Dainsleif, the other side will suffer too much to counterattack while Dainsleif squad are too busy reloading. In contrast, when Shino's Super Galaxy Cannon miss, he's overwhelmed by despair and get killed fast. Again, there used to be many MA, and with support from Pluma army the number isn't their problem.
Now, if Dainsleif hit Hashmal where the AI locate it should be able to take it down along with all Pluma. But it seem that precise sniping isn't Dainsleif's strong point.
Jupiterian Local
That said, I could see someone deciding that reusable mobile suit frames is a better use of limited material compared to disposable dainsleif rounds. But that does assume that there was a bottleneck of that material, which we don't actually know is the case.
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None of that actually makes any sense.
Advice. If your main point is "it's cheaper", then try to stay away from "keep throw them in until it work". Eventually the cost of things need to accomplish will make the "cheaper" point obsoleted.
Fail to connect two points? It's isn't easy to destroy, so if your strategy of disabling Pluma is "destroy the MA", then it isn't easy.
Well, except what we saw is that they are indeed shoot and stop for lengthy reload.
It mean back then they're everywhere. Mars, space, moon. And so orbital bombard isn't safe. Heck, and since back then MA keep moving for resupply and killing people, orbital bombarding is surely much harder to prepare. We have no idea how long it require, but they have whole day to adjust everything for bombarding Tekkadan base, a very specific area.
Except from what we saw, it isn't easy. As noted, number isn't problem for MA. Despite they effort to black Plama from Hushmal, Tekkadan still have to used most of their MS to engage Pluma AND we saw some of them still get through. Clearly it isn't easy.
Being lost technology or cheap are irrelevant. One is about knowledge, another is about cost. Heck, Tekkadan even able to effort only one dainsleif pike. And as I said, advantage of being cheaper is loss if you require infinite number to accomplish the job.
See? Your strategy rely on having infinite ammo and that the target would remain still the whole time without acting. Something that's completely unlike what happened in the story.
edited 26th Sep '17 10:55:24 AM by Kuruni
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Frame-alloy is specifically mentioned to be rare and expensive, which is why not even the melee weapons of the elite Gundam regiment were automatically made out of it (the Kimaris's lances weren't, for example, while its shoulder shuriken were). Rustal was literally shooting money at the rebels, and it's far from clear whether humanity had the manpower or resources to engage in massed bombardment at the end of the Calamity War, when Dainsleifs were apparently invented (they show up as a prototype weapon on one of the last of a line of late-war suits).
What's precedent ever done for us?
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
On Zeta, the thing is that Jsmitov wasn't just going for a power-grab. He was specifically choosing to sacrifice his base of operations, the Earth, by making it uninhabitable, and was using an army of anti-spacenoid bigots to do so (who he presumably expected to get killed off in the process). He may have eventually planned to make himself a dictator, but his efforts to kick-start humanity's Newtype ascension didn't naturally gel with that (and in fact would have been a significant impediment to that, since they'd leave him without resources and without an army), and he decided to go for it anyway. It's also worth noting that the rise of Newtypes makes dictatorship much easier, at least in the early stages - superpowers naturally concentrate power towards individuals, as seen when Char uses his shared Newtype connection with a thirteen-year-old girl to get a superweapon capable of soloing a fleet. I think it's pretty telling that after a whole movie of a small group of superhumans' petty grudges and unhealthy relationships leading the entire human race into mortal peril, the day is saved by the first, faint beginnings of a general Newtype awakening, as all that power starts to get democratised again.
What's precedent ever done for us?
Jupiterian Local
Of course, we can't get too specific on this because we don't know exactly what the relative costs of mobile armors, mobile suits, and dainsleif rounds are. But I'd be very surprised if there wasn't at least an order of magnitude or two of difference between each of them.
If you can just fire dainsleif barrages from orbit (and I don't see why you couldn't), then you don't have to worry about the conventional MS or the pluma. Just keep shooting until it's dead. It can't attack, can't defend, and can't run away. As long as you have enough ammo you literally cannot lose.
Besides, it's not like a mobile suit battle in the middle of a city is going to a surgical strike free of collateral damage. Giant robots and buildings don't mix. Your city is going to take damage in any case — it's just a question of whether it's caused by a rampaging MA (kills literally everyone), by MS combat (random destruction in a wide area), or by dainsleif bombardment (total destruction in a narrow area).
Now, it is entirely possible that the Gundams went into production before dainsleif weapons did, and the technology was only completed for the very tail end of the Calamity War. I find this an unsatisfying explanation for several reasons, though. Most importantly, dainsleif seems to be conceptually very simple (make a projectile out of frame alloy, coat it in nanolaminate armor, fire it out of a railgun) and all of the technology needed to make it actually predate Gundams (frame alloy, nanolaminate armor, and railguns were all used by mobile armors), so I don't see what would delay its development.
But Jamitov as secret newtype revolutionary? You've completely lost me.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
IIRC, Jamitov is the one who comes up with the 'starve the Earth until everyone moves into space' plan that Paptimus later adopts and repurposes. It's mentioned in one of the later episodes - I think he confides his plan to Jerid, who complains that the Titans and AEUG are fighting for the same thing during Dakar.
As for Dainsleif expense, I'd guess, from their relative size, that you can get about twenty Dainsleif shots from a single mobile suit frame. Rustal's fleet-level artillery team consisted of fifty-one Dainsleif Grazes. In other words, each time they fired cost two and a half mobile suits, and they fired once every few seconds. Assuming a reload time of roughly six seconds, they spent approximately twenty-five mobile suits a minute (or, in other words, a little under half of the core mobile suit fleet of Teiwaz, the owners of the second-biggest military in the solar system). That's an insane attrition rate, and it's clear that it's the sort of idea that only an organisation as ridiculously wealthy and profligate as Gjallarhorn could have come up with.
It's also worth remembering that PD scientists seem to have had some difficulties with powering railguns. The Magnetic Weapons used by other Gundams (the Bael's wing-guns and the Kimaris's shuriken catapults) are fairly small, and the Flauros, one of the most powerful suits in existence, has to massively contort itself in order to adequately power its guns. Similarly, the only 'modern' railgun seen prior to the Dainsleif squadron's debut is Iok's cannon, which is specifically an experimental prototype and is much smaller than anything Dainsleif-compatible. It's not implausible that scientists during the Calamity War couldn't figure out a way to fit Dainsleif railguns onto single-reactor suits, which would have made it even more difficult to create the massed bombardments that truly let the weapon shine.
edited 26th Sep '17 2:55:11 PM by Iaculus
What's precedent ever done for us?
Jupiterian Local
Of course, you could also just cut out the middleman and mount dainsleif launchers on warships or dedicated mobile worker style ground vehicles. But that breaks the cardinal rule of Gundam that giant robots must be better than non-giant-robots at everything.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
True, but they hype up the rarity and value of frame-alloy so hard in the manuals that it's clearly one of the biggest parts of a suit's budget.
On railguns, it's important to note that Dainsleifs aren't just frame-alloy bullets, they're [i]giant frame-alloy spears[/i]. If you want to fire one of those with any sort of range or accuracy, you're going to need a gigantic amount of force. Plus, most conventional railguns don't seem all that overpowered for their size (even if they do literally punch above their weight) - the Bael's wing-guns seem about as effective as the Barbatos's 200mm autocannons, while Iok's railgun matches up fairly well with Tekkadan's 300mm howitzers.
On ship-mounted versus suit-mounted Dainsleifs, I think an important question is how effectively Ahab reactors scale up, especially since we know from the continued nonexistence of Gundams that you can only have one per vehicle. Basically, how many Dainsleif launchers can a ship power, and will the increase in firepower compensate for sticking them on a bigger, less agile, and less easily-replaceable target?
If the enemy gets too close to a Dainsleif Graze bombardment team, they can scatter, and there's no guarantee that the enemy will be able to get them all before reinforcements arrive. If the Dainsleifs are all mounted on a few ships, though, then the chances of having the entire battery wiped out increase dramatically.
What's precedent ever done for us?
From what I understood the Valkrie frames were a parallel design with the Gundam frames. My guess is that the Gundams were judged to be a better design and construction on Valkyries was halted and the few that were already finished were put to use.
As for there only being 72 gundams: apparently making a duel reactor suit is much more difficult than just throwing a second reactor on a frame. Its been mentioned that Gjallerhorn doesn't have the know how to make duel reactors anymore, and their the only ones with the knowledge to make Ahab reactors.
Fate Grand Order players will know me as Ryusei-Go.
Exactly my point, you have no idea how many is needed for it to be "enough".
First, you're assume that the MS side have infinite resource for 1) Dainslief and ammo, 2) reloading MS, and 3) enough MS for effectively guard the Dainsleif team (which as seen in the story, Takkadan use most of their MS and it isn't enough). So follow your scenario, it's more likely that 2) will be "some of Pluma get pass your defense, tearing the Dainsleif team spart. At this point your Hexa and Rodi trying to retreat until.... 3) some Pluma that remain behind finally patch-up its boss. Game over music."
Which make me remember, Graze was developed post war. So back then they have Rodi and Hexa frame, neither have high power sensor like Graze (although it's likely can equipped with one).
No, it's actually more simple. We saw them fighting one in story, but back then there were many MA, including in space. Just because you're sniping at one doesn't make it safe from another.
Plus, we never saw how well Dainsleif pike shot under gravity. The closest thing is when Shino shoot the cliff, which isn't very far.
Except that...
No this is what you said.
Except I didn't argue about that. My point is the MA doesn't has disadvantage in number, so it isn't the same story. The strategy that work when you outnumber opponent by two to one simply won't work when the opponent is the one that outnumber you. While single Dainslief will deal enough blow that Tekkdana can't effort counterattack beyond the Super Galaxy Cannon, MA would have more than enough Pluma to counterattack and repair the MA at same time.
Indeed, you're right that with enough of Dainslief, enough of ammo, and enough of support force it can be done. But my point is that nobody known how many would be enough. We also don't known what other angels are capable of. So really we're arguing based on incomplete data. What bug me is your argument that "just keep add them until it's enough", which imply that you're asking for "infinite".
And it's just occurred to me, if Flauros' cannons are really the original Dainselif, then they already field 63 Gundams by that point (as noted in Dantalion's manual, the ASW-G-71 is one of the final Gundams to completed and they developed many things since the first, so it's safe to assume that they're built in order of number and years has passed from Bael to the later Gundams). So it might simply be that they already have many demons run around the battlefield with all strategy and pilots' training to support them. By the time they make 10th or so Dainsleif, the Calamity War might be in closing stage.
edited 26th Sep '17 10:04:57 PM by Kuruni
Jupiterian Local
Dainsleif weapons are staggeringly effective against nanolaminate armored targets. Nothing we see in IBO regarding either dainsleif weapons or mobile armors suggests that dainsleif would be any less effective against mobile armors than it is against mobile suits and warships. If you want to assert otherwise, the burden of proof is on you to make an argument in favor of that position. "We don't know for sure" is not an argument in favor of that position, and that's all you've offered so far.
Brightness
They're actually bringing back fucking Moon Moon of all things.
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Deranged X-Mas Figure
...The hell am I looking at?
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Zeta, in which the villains are an elaborate false-flag by Newtype supremacists who want to destroy the Earth Federation. CCA, in which the Zeon-Federstion conflict was totally derailed by a Newtype miracle. Unicorn, in which the source of the conflict was a secret Federation contingency plan for the rise of Newtypes. Are you reallly not seeing the significance here?
What's precedent ever done for us?