It's a Gundam thread!

The Federation is a good bad guy as well, a series about their downfall in general would be pretty cool.

That's a very narrow, unimaginative take on the UC. The main narrative current in it is humanity's painful transcendence into something posthuman, and the Federation versus Zeon is simply the first crisis that arises from that. There's a reason that the Crossbone Vanguard and Zanscare Empire both employ even more powerful, sophisticated, and horrifying perversions of Newtype power than Zeon ever dreamed of.

What's precedent ever done for us?

Its kinda funny tho that there's a lot of permutations of Zeon that show up in this series. That's not even counting Garma's Real Zeon from the Gihren's Greed series or that Casval Zeon stuff from the same (or was it one of the VS games? I forget)

I'm quite confident in my shitposting you know

That sounds more like 00 than UC to me. UC is very clear on the fact that, magical space psychic powers or not, newtypes are no wiser or more virtuous than everyone else. Some are good, some are evil, some are patient, some are short-sighted. The entire point of newtypes in the UC timeline is that Deikun was wrong, and understanding does not eliminate conflict.

The reason the Crossbone Vanguard and Zanscare Empire are things is because they wanted to make more Gundam shows while leaving the baggage of the Federation/Zeon conflict behind and they hadn't come up with the "let's just set it in an alternate universe" thing yet. I pretty much consider F91 and Victory sort of proto-AUs, given how little connection they have to early UC (or each other). Which is admittedly just headcanon, but still, that's what I was getting at with the comment that the UC timeline is defined by the Federation/Zeon conflict.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Sunrise attempted the idea of an alternate universe Gundam with Metal Armor Dragonar.

I never mentioned a moral component. Newtypes being good or bad has no bearing on whether they exist and are important, and they are extremely important to the Universal Century. I mean, every UC show ends with a Newtype miracle, and humanity's psychic awakening grows ever mightier until it literally threatens all life on Earth at the end of Victory. That's the core conflict of the UC - whether humanity can take advantage of its evolution, or whether it will eventually be dragged down by its terrible past and adapt it into the same old habits until its failure to adapt destroys it, and it's a conflict that transcends the Federation-Zeon war (just look at Zeta, where you had multiple factions jockeying for the opportunity to psychically awaken humanity, and Zeon was the least important) and that only becomes more perilous and pressing long after Zeon has died off, until the ultimate, tragic failure that leads to the Reguild Century and the regression of humanity.

That's a premise with plenty of other stories in it.

edited 24th Sep '17 8:11:22 PM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?

Newtypes were eventually determined not to mean much in Crossbone.

I disagree — this is the argument Amuro and Char have in CCA. Char believes that for humanity to grow, they need to be forced off of Earth so they can become newtypes by living in space. Amuro believes that humanity will grow and develop on their own if given the chance — meaning as long as assholes like Char don't screw things up in the meantime. Ultimately, Char has no faith in humanity, only in newtypes — he's willing to sacrifice the former for the sake of the latter. Amuro, on the other hand, doesn't consider them separately — in Amuro's mind, they're all just people, and killing a bunch of people for the sake of humanity (which is also just a bunch of people) is unnecessary if not actively counterproductive.

I really don't think we're meant to side with Char on the issue.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

If they're going to make post-Victory era, they better give us another reminder that "Yes, G-Saviour exist".

Personally, I think the one they should explore more is the remaining titles of Knight Gundam series. At least this, this, and this, just to give proper ending to what old OVA started. And if they continue to the three in Shin SD Gundam Gaiden series (this, this, and this), we also got FC and AC stuff without return to those timelines.

edited 24th Sep '17 9:59:44 PM by Kuruni

While I do not side with Char's extremist views, I do believe that Newtypes as presented in UC may represent a potential new age of humanity.

Amuro says that they are all just people, and that is true: being a Newtype does not make one morally or intrinsically superior to other humans. However, I also think it's undeniable that Newtypes have abilities that ordinary humans do not, and that if all of humanity were to become Newtypes, then a new age for humankind would dawn.

Basically, I think Char was correct in principle, but he was trying to force that development to happen too quickly, and at the expense of too many lives. I side with Amuro in letting it happen on its own terms and in its own time.

I can totally see the UC timeline as the beginnings of a species-wide metamorphosis, similar to what happens in 00 but on a much more gradual timescale... or at least, that seemed to be what was happening until Reguild Century, where Newtypes don't seem to be present.

Honestly, we might as well consider F91 and Victory to take place in a version of UC where Unicorn didn't happen.

Reguild Century, though? I have no idea.

Spelunking through a Halo Ring is something else...

I always figured Newtype stuff was just a thing that certain people could do, and in the end there was a lot less meaning and evolutionary implication than what people expected from it, in-universe and out. If I recall correctly, Tomino himself only ever used it as a bit of a writing crutch at first; it's rather notable than in Turn A Gundam, Newtypes don't even get a mention.

Wasn't the Loto supposed to be a predecessor to the old Guntank from the Mobile Suit museum at Side 6 in F91?

edited 25th Sep '17 5:28:51 AM by EndlessSea

but HOW?

Well, yeah, but the Loto's probably a Mythology Gag more than anything else. See, the problem I find with F91 and Victory (and I haven't seen them) is that their existence essentially makes Banagher's and Mineva's struggles entirely worthless.

F91 takes place 30 years after Unicorn, yeah? Even if you disregard the whole "oh, it was made before Unicorn was even a thing", it's pretty jarring to see that the opening of Laplace's Box did virtually nothing in the grand scale of things.

edited 25th Sep '17 5:36:39 AM by G2BattleConvoy

Spelunking through a Halo Ring is something else...

@Jovian: You're still not getting it. What matters is not who is right or who is wrong (although Tomino makes it clear that his sympathies lie with a gradual Newtype awakening, even if he's not sure if it's possible) - what matters is that the conflict exists because Newtypes have power, and that they can drastically impact human society. We see the biggest manifestations of this with Newtype cults like the South Sea Brotherhood and the Zanscare Empire, where entire nations are brought together by the undeniable existence of Newtype miracles, but when the original Universal Century saga ends with Newtype pilots wiping out entire fleets, followed by the literal light of a Newtype dawn as Newtypes save the human race from extinction, it's pretty blatantly counterfactual to assert that the conflict over Newtypes is meaningless and that they haven't changed anything. If humanity fails to awaken and ends up literally eating itself, then that is simply an end to the conflict. It doesn't mean the conflict never existed.

edited 25th Sep '17 5:46:32 AM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?

Aside from the Federation being so weak-ass that they couldn't stop a bunch of space aristocrats from taking over a colony by force?

I prefer how the Crossbone series sees Newtypes. They're just people who have adapted to live in space, that's where their advantage lies. Meanwhile Oldtypes boast a different set of advantages, such as walking in gravity without drugs or getting winded.

Sure Newtypes may be the future, but humanity is still tied to the planets, no matter how much space is needed.

Let's not forget the VERY END of the UC and that series of Gundam. Turn A Gundam, where the motto seems to be "space is empty, let's go home".

UC goes out of its way to deny this. Newtypes show up and nothing changes. Conflict and war still exist, even between newtypes and their perfect understanding. Deikun was demonstrably wrong. I see no reason why this would change just because there are more newtypes.

Conflict exists because that's human nature. Newtypes existing does nothing to change this one way or the other. You could remove newtypes from UC Gundam entirely and it wouldn't change the course of history. Zeon did not attack the Federation because of newtype powers. Maybe CCA wouldn't have happened as it did (because Char wouldn't have "because newtypes" to use as an excuse for dropping Axis), but he had other reasons for doing it as well (to settle his score with Amuro, to give a giant middle finger to the Federation, to go out with a bang instead of fading away and being forgotten) that have nothing to do with newtype powers, so that's no guarantee.

I never said that newtype powers aren't real or that they didn't have a huge effect on individuals, I just said that the emergence of newtypes didn't alter the course of human history as Deikun (and Char) asserted it would. The idea is that because newtypes can perfectly understand one another, they will end conflict. The unstated assumption here is that misunderstanding is the root of all conflict, and if only we could eliminate that misunderstanding, we would be able to eliminate conflict as a result.

UC Gundam repeatedly demonstrates that this is false. Lalah is killed regardless of her newtype understanding with Char and Amuro, because they all want incompatible things (Char wants to kill Amuro, Amuro wants to kill Char, and Lalah wants all three of them to live together). Four is killed despite her newtype connection with Kamille, because she wants the Titans to give her memories back more than she wants to live in peace. Scirocco uses the understanding granted by his newtype powers to manipulate people into joining his cause and amassing more power to himself, rather than using it to end conflict peacefully. Haman's newtype connection to Judau drives her to suicide. Amuro and Char's newtype connection in CCA only makes their conflict more bitter, rather than allowing them to resolve it without fighting.

As far as I'm aware, there are zero examples in the UC canon of newtype powers ending a conflict because enemies come to understand each other and agree to stop fighting. So why should we believe that more newtypes == less conflict?

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Oh, ffs, I never said I believed that Newtypes would bring an end to all conflict. That aspect of the Newtypism Char subscribed to is clear bullshit.

When I said a new age for humanity I didn't have anything particular in mind. Some form of development, but not a perfect utopia. Hell, it might not even be a step forward in the long run. All I meant was that humanity would change in some manner or another.

New PD suits from the Gekko manga. Two Gundams and a Valkyrie.

edited 25th Sep '17 10:01:00 AM by TheAirman

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They

Yeah I don't really get why Unicorn's ending seemed so...final and happy unless they planned to retcon F91 and Victory out of the UC timeline. I mean if Turn A is still a thing then I can at least maybe get that, I just want to think that Banagher and Mineva's efforts actually worked for a lot longer than two pissing, piddly little decades.

I'm quite confident in my shitposting you know

Fenice's PD counterpart?

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.

It ended the Side 3 (Zeon) / Federation conflict in its entirely, however those events really didn’t interfere with Side 2 becoming Zanscare.

So, what, Side 2 conveniently ignores Mineva's worldwide plea to have hope for the future and instead create their own answer to Zeon? Idiots.

Spelunking through a Halo Ring is something else...

Zanscare was a product of humanity's Newtype awakening, a cult based around a particularly powerful Newtype that got weaponised. It also happened fifty years after Unicorn.

And Jovian, you initially argued that the UC wasn't about the conflicts generated by humanity's Newtype awakening. Nothing you've posted has refuted that - Deikun being wrong about humanity's chances at attaining a Newtype utopia doesn't change the fact that they exist, and that they are powerful, and that wars are fought over them. I'm also not sure where you got the idea that Newtype miracles have never stopped a war, given the end of CCA. I mean, the collective will of humanity preventing its own extinction through sheer psychic force is a little more than 'personally important'.

What's precedent ever done for us?

The main UC conflicts have nothing to do with newtypes except that newtypes were one of the weapons used to fight them. Everything from MSG through Unicorn happens because Gihren Zabi wanted to rule the Earth Sphere with an iron fist and the fallout of that. I'm not even sure how you can claim any of it is about newtypes.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.