Shin Megami Tensei Series

I was thinking for a few days about how Clap Your Hands If You Believe is, like, the trope underpinning MegaTen and associated universes. But it's not that straightforward. Otherwise someone like Metatron wouldn't be powerful given the small number of practicing Jews in the world.

I think in-universe it's a bit of a chicken and egg thing, where things are real because people believe in them because they're real because people believe in them because they're real because etc. It all depends on what universe we are talking about (because everything has a multiverse nowadays).

Cognition is just Persona 5's way of contextualizing this idea.

Sometimes when they existed before humanity it’s because they came from a previous universe ala the implication of IV’s YHVH, who Krishna and the Divine Powers learned the truth about reality from Dagda in Krishna’s backstory as Kokuten.

That’s why at some points they mention losing to YHVH even though the current universe was made by YHVH to begin with, and why the goal is to undo it with making another universe.

Others like Strange Journey make the point humans are not the only living things. The Scharzwelt is an antibody of the Earth, and the earth itself is not only alive, but will use demons to purge any intelligent life that threatens it, with Mem Aleph and Shekinah as different extensions of its will.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Apr 5th 2024 at 10:41:17 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

So Earth is an asshole as well in SJ.

I gotta say, the spirit of the Earth hating humans and wanting to purge them because of pollution feels very Square Enix for some reason.

I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.

It’s also not the first or last time sentient life evolved and repeated this either, which is stated in the story.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

One of the more interesting things about SJ is that, while they might have completely different methods of achieving it, Mem Aleph and Shekinah ultimately have the same goal; which is why to get the best endings in R, you have to kill both of them.

inb4 the dinosaurs were actually wiped out by the schwartzwald

Edited by asterism on Apr 5th 2024 at 6:53:24 PM

Song of the Sirens

Eh, I kind of sympathize with the Earth a bit here. Obviously I don't think mankind should be wiped out in-universe or IRL because a lot of us (especially those in power) are a bunch of greedy, short-sighted, irresponsible assholes, but if I were Planet Earth, I'd be a bit miffed that humanity was fucking me and themselves over for the sake of quarterly profits.

I don't even remember if Earth itself was sapient in SJ. I don't think it was, so the Schwarzwelt could be considered kind of an autonomous reaction. Like a fever in the human body. It's just trying to kill the thing killing it, in the most simple and reactionary way possible.

Make your own comparison to real life climate change here.

Edited by Nofix on Apr 5th 2024 at 10:55:23 AM

Something something, Law and Chaos are two sides of the same coin and are both ultimately bad for humanity.

Granted, SMT IV has been emphasizing this as well.

Which is why I'm glad the remake made the endings less shit.

Yeah, but Shekinah and Mem Aleph are jerks about wiping out humanity so there's that.

Also, I find it kind of interesting that Lucifer and YHVH take on female forms this game. I think this is actually the first time Lucifer started being gender fluid.

I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.

Ah, it all makes sense; the demons are those chosen by the Planet.

...Yeah, I still find it funny that three major characters in Strange Journey are voiced by people who played major characters in Final Fantasy VII.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Apr 6th 2024 at 1:15:28 AM

Aerith quit her job as a flower seller to get into the music business.

I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.

And funnily enough, it was Sephiroth who talked her into it.

@Dragonfire: A mix of that and The Lifestream itself did chose them. It’d be like if the Lifestream willingly decided to work with Sephiroth and opposed Aerith.

Edit: In fact it’d be the Lifestream supporting Sephiroth/Jenova AND Shinra and doesn’t care which wins while wanting Avalanche dead.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Apr 6th 2024 at 12:28:39 PM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

Yeah, that's definitely a bit more accurate; I just wanted to make a dumb Final Fantasy VII joke since Strange Journey Redux features three big-name voice actors from that game.

Speaking of voice actors, I'm listening to the Japanese version of the latest Vengeance trailer again, and Mastema's Japanese voice actor doesn't quite sound like Morikawa's take on him in Strange Journey Redux. His voice sounds a bit closer to how he sounded in Shin Megami Tensei IV (apparently he's voiced by Wataru Takagi in that game?), but I'm not exactly a good judge when it comes to voices, so take that with a grain of salt.

Speaking of Final Fantasy VII, I love how Aogami shares voices with two major antagonists from that series. In Japanese, he's Sephiroth; in English, he's Weiss the Immaculate.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Apr 6th 2024 at 11:18:43 AM

If we're on about the voice actors, I do find it quite amusing that Louisa Ferre and Rhea have the same actress.

I've compared SMT and Three Houses a lot.

I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.

3 Houses is on my ever expanding list of games I need to play. At least my Switch backlog isn't that massive, but it's still a fair number of games.

Well my good friend, here's the alignment:

Blue Lions is Law, Golden Deer is Neutral, and Black Eagles is Chaos.

Heck, Blue Lions is the house consistently aligned with the Church, while the house leader of the Black Eagles eventually dons armor that makes her look like a devil.

I've said it before, I genuinely think Lucifer and Edelgard would unironically get along.

I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.

All the Houses feel like Law to me, at least the fifth game’s interpretation of Law.

None of the Houses feel particularly Chaos-like to me.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Apr 6th 2024 at 12:33:39 PM

When I was playing Persona 3 the scenes of Ikutsuki being a nutjob were extra-silly to me because I couldn't stop thinking "Hanemann's lost his marbles!"

Well on that note, Three Houses came before SMTV.

I'd argue each house fits the traditional mold and traditions of each alignment albeit with some of the worse actions like genocide not happening. Heck, on the Golden Deer route, Edelgard and Dimitri die, much like how neutral endings need you to kill both alignment heroes to progress. Granted, you don't kill Dimitri, but he is still an opponent.

And I could spend quite a lot of time explaining why Black Eagles is Chaos since both Edelgard and Lucifer preach meritocracy, and a free humanity, but maybe next time.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Apr 7th 2024 at 3:36:12 AM

I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.

Gods in the Persona world are manifestations of collective thought, except for Nyx. You can think of them akin to like Primals in FFXIV more than SMT demons.

Okay yeah that's what I was thinking as well, but I always assumed that Morgana's speech and Maruki's later actions were something of a call forward to SMT 2 where Cognition had become far more powerful and the demons and Gods are now able to interact more closely to the physical world.

Like, because of the divergence, Persona's setting is less bleak because the nukes were never launched and the cognitive world is weaker.

A LOT Of Persona 5 and SMT IV, particularly apocalypse happens to overlap in terms of lore.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Apr 7th 2024 at 3:42:34 AM

I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.

Its straight laid out in Persona 2 Nyarlathotep is the living embodiment of Mankind's collective chaos. While Philemon is basically the embodiment of potential (personification of The Fool if you will)

Erebus is humanity's grief constantly seeking out the end by awakening Nyx, with a yearly respawn time. Awakening Nyx will essentially start SMT III Nocturne.

In P4 Izanami was once a peaceful god of Inaba but was gradually corrupted by man's thoughts and cast out the part of her that objected in Marie. Then set out a trap to test the people by gifting 3 people with the power of Persona. One of which gains the attention of Philemon.

Edited by Memers on Apr 6th 2024 at 1:01:43 AM

x4 The V interpretation of Law is something that's been around longer than Three Houses has; V just puts a bit more focus on the "status quo" angle of Law, especially since its Law ending is about upholding the status quo on how the Top God works.

That's one reason that all three Houses feel like Law to me. All of them are about returning to a status quo of when the continent was united under one nation, with the big difference being which nation is calling the shots.

If I had to assign SMT alignments to the Three Houses House leaders, I'd personally go with:

• Edelgard is Law, given the major focus Fire Emblem: Three Houses puts on her imposing her will on others and her intent on returning Fodlan to the old status quo of when the Adrestian Empire was in charge of pretty much everything. Her wanting Crests gone is a form of shaking the status quo a bit, but considering the God of Law trying to get rid of Nahobino still put him in the Law alignment...
• Dimitri is Neutral, given he's the most balanced in terms of introducing new change and keeping up traditions. He wants things to change, but goes with a slower approach because he thinks it's easier to handle dissention that way. Less charitable people would probably say Dimitri is more wishy-washy, but he does seem to be the more moderate of the two in terms of "shake up" vs. "status quo." He kind of calls to mind Krishna's words about how Law and Chaos are fine in moderation, but can cause issues if taken in too large doses.
• Claude is Chaos, in that he wants to introduce a LOT of new things to Fodlan and really shake up the way the people of Fodlan see the world. He wants the people to listen to more voices and consider more perspectives, which actually puts him pretty close to what the V version of Chaos is like.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Apr 6th 2024 at 1:08:50 AM

SMT 1 and 2 aren't in the Persona timeline, just If.

Claude: I want a world where people with many views and ideas can come together and discuss their differences, which is why we need to fucking kill Rhea and all of her followers. They didn't agree with me!

Yeah, Claude is definitely a Chaos rep.

Edited by MisterTambourineMan on Apr 6th 2024 at 8:38:49 AM

Nach jeder Ebbe kommt die Flut.

Personally, my justifications for alignments are as follows:

Edelgard is Chaos because she she explicitly wants to destroy the current status quo through war, and install her new order of meritocracy to replace the crest system she sees as stagnating Fodlan. Her emphasis on power, desire for a world where the strong can shape the world as they see fit, willingness to cross moral boundaries others aren't and disregard for current power structures like the crest system she sees as corrupt, puts her in Chaos IMO.

And we see Chaos reps who do want some semblance of order, we see Lucifer at the end of SMT 4 lament that the sons of man killing each other in blind slaughter isn't something he wants, and would prefer Flynn take over since she prefers humanity to lead itself but still co-exist with the demons and that leadership come from strength proven.

Also Edelgard is the most anti-church character. Nuff said.

So in my opinion, her wanting to install her own version of Order doesn't really put her in law. And while she does want to put the Adrestian Empire back to power, it's not really bringing back an old status quo because the Empire will have a new system to govern things and even she's not immune to her own rules since she steps down once she finds a better leader than her, which feels very Chaos IMO.

Dimitri is more law because he tends to emphasize the importance of working together, importance of traditions, is very patient when it comes to changing current laws feeling that stability right now is more important than risking changing things too much in too little time which has logic to it considering what happened to his father. He also explicitly states that traditions that stand the test of time do so for a reason and that there's no reason to remove all traditions.

Also he's the one aligned with the Church most consistently. Even stating his logic that part of the reason he defends them is because they offer stability to his people and legitimacy to his position as king.

Heck, Byleth's title at the end of Blue Lions is Guardian of Order.

Claude is neutral because he tends to reject the extremes of both Dimitri and Edelgard in favor of a more moderate position, and as stated before the latter two are dead at the end of his route. Neutral is all about rejecting the extreme position of both Law and Chaos in favor of humanity.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Apr 6th 2024 at 11:22:25 PM

I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.