The Dresden Files

Yeah, it bears mentioning that Molly being the Ragged Lady and later the Winter Lady isn't actually a positive development for her. Being the Winter Lady is not great. It's even worse than Harry becoming the Winter Knight given the different ways their Mantles work.

Harry's not the only reason Molly ended up that way, but he bears a lot of the responsibility for it.

Is it any wonder Maeve fell to Nemesis? Being the Winter Lady sucks.

Edited by M84 on Feb 21st 2024 at 12:03:58 AM

Molly being the Winter Lady sucks. The Winter Lady being Molly is actually kind of awesome. She’s already starting to prove that she has the toughness and will to change the mantle and the office before they change her. She’s vowed to come up with a better way to fight the Outsider War than by drafting Winter’s child soldiers, even if it takes forever—she has the time.

For anyone who hasn’t yet, check out the Molly microfiction “The Good People.” She’s doing this job her way. It’s Dresden who gave her the tools to do that.

The one good lesson Harry taught her — don't take shit from anyone else.

Mab's reaction to Molly basically being 'Oh god there's two of you' is one of my favorite moments in the short stories.

Come to think of it, my perspective on Winter Lady Molly is similar to my perspective on Blackstaff McCoy, as I've mentioned. I don't understand Harry's (and some readers') view that being the Blackstaff makes Ebenezer a hypocrite. If we stipulate that, given what the White Council is like and that they have access to the Blackstaff artifact, they're going to have someone use the thing, it's obviously better for it to be someone like Ebenezer, who holds the Laws in high regard and will consider his actions carefully before breaking them. I doubt he takes any pleasure at all in the job, but sees it as Necessarily Evil. Much better than some of the other powerful wizards who might overuse the thing given something of a free pass.

To paraphrase myself, Ebenezer being the Blackstaff sucks. The Blackstaff being Ebenezer is... better for the world than the alternative.

That tracks from a logical perspective but Harry isn't thinking of it this way.

Ebenezer is his teacher, the person who mentored him after he was nearly put down for black magic. Harry's disdain for black magic and what little regard he has for the White Council are a result of Ebenezer's teaching.

To find out that person wasn't really practicing what he preached is going to hit hard.

Ebenezer taught Harry that Black Magic was absolutely evil, could never be justified, and that he was a monster for what he did to Justin in self-defense and defense of his girlfriend.

Harry is a man who has spent decades of his life since then atoning for what he did, fighting evil as a Vigilante Man.

Morgan treated him as a monster because of that one incident too.

Now Harry finds out that Ebenezer uses Loophole Abuse to do Black Magic ALL THE TIME and the only thing that is different is he has a way to avoid the side effects of With Great Power Comes Great Insanity.

Remember Harry's pentacle can hold off vampires, it is his RELIGION.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Mar 1st 2024 at 12:03:58 PM

That seems a little strong. To the extent that Harry internalized the White Council's loathing of him, it's in spite of McCoy's teachings, not because of them. He taught Molly the same way—she had (mostly) good intentions when she modified her friends' minds, but it still damaged their sanity and her own. He doesn't treat her as a monster, but as someone potentially dangerous who should be carefully taught and managed, and he learned that from McCoy.

Harry's motivation isn't primarily to atone for doing black magic one time, either. He has Chronic Hero Syndrome and believes in Comes Great Responsibility, because of Eb's teachings, but not because he was told that's the only way to keep from Jumping Off the Slippery Slope or anything.

I do wonder about Morgan. He's the sort of true believer who, from what we know of him, would think the Blackstaff is an unjustifiable position for the Council to employ. But it's not believable he doesn't know about it as second-in-command of the Wardens. I wonder how many rank-and-file wizards do know, though.

(Sidenote: the Blackstaff itself is totally Mother Winter's missing walking stick, right? I wonder if she'll get it back before the series is over?)

I think it´s pretty clear that Ebenezar did not teach Harry that he´s a monster for killing Justin with Black Magic. Eb taught him that magic is tied to ones idea of what´s the right thing to do and to be aware of the slippery slope of self-justification. That if one tries hard enough one will always find a reason why the present situation should be the exception to ones principles, if it´s convinient. And according to Harry he mostly did that by leading by example and giving Harry a father figure to model himself after. It´s no wonder Harry feels betrayed. The philosophy Eb taught Harry leaves no room for justifications when it comes to magic and Eb being able to use Black Magic at all shakes the pillars Harry has build his morality on.

Alos yes the Staff is 100% Mother Winters walking stick. If i remember correctly Ebs shadows during Battle Ground even resembles Mother Winter and her cackling can be heard when Eb uses it. I´m also convinced she will get it back, at least for a short while. Personally i believe the storyline will be something like this: 1) Mother Winter orders Harry (in his role as Winter Knight) to retrieve her staff by X date. 2) Harry accepts grudginly, but internaly makes it clear he doesn´t want/plan to. 3) Harry and the Council have a common enemy, which leads to Harry working with Eb in the field (my money is on revenge against Drakul). 4) Eb and Harry win the final battle but Eb is mortally wounded and gives the Staff to Harry as his last act to protect his grandson. 5) Harry can fullfil Mother Winters original order and is then gifted the Staff by Mother Winter, since she makes it clear he will need such a weapon for the coming battle.

The microfiction paints a very different picture of Morgan: He associated with Margaret after she was a warlock on the run from the council, and did not have Ebenezar's familial reason for doing so.

He was aware of the Blackstaff, and was clearly more on the ball than Harry ever gave him credit for. All the rabid zealotry was an act designed to push Harry, and Morgan's own thoughts are nuanced but unshakeable in a different way: opposing Nemesis. In Proven Guilty, I think, Harry compares Morgan's zealotry as amateur hour compared to Michael's unshakeable conviction: in reality, the frothing maniac mien was a mask for the same determination in Morgan, and a lot more self control than Harry perceived.

Edited by ViperMagnum357 on Mar 1st 2024 at 7:34:46 AM

Oh right, I think I ran across that story before I finished BG and forgot to go back and read it. Thanks for the insight. Clearly, I still need to read for more info, but you’d think there’d be an easier way for Morgan to help Harry than by harassing and terrorizing him. 🤔

Morgan was utterly terrified that Harry might have been turned fully warlock by Du Mornes teachings, had been Nfected, or both. Morgan fully believed that people are only forced to show their true character when they are truly pushed and when Harry didn´t show himself to be a warlock or Nfected Morgan was unsure if Harry simply had very high levels of self-control or was an innocent man. Morgan found the situation to be too serious to trust, so he kept up the pressure and wasn´t even convinced by Turn Coat (all he was sure of was the Nemesis had invaded the Senior Council and that Harry wasn´t involved in their plots amongst each other).

From the looks of it Morgan had three great regrets in his life (that we know of) 1) that he never managed to have a romantic relationship with Luccio 2) that he failed his promise to Margaret to protect her son and 3) that he persecuted and hounded an innocent Harry based purely on suspicion.

Edited by Samaldin on Mar 2nd 2024 at 11:24:40 AM

Once you know Nemesis is a thing, it's hard to figure out whether someone has been affected by it or not. Justine was apparently its host for years with no one the wiser.

Yeah, it's a shame too that Nemesis is such a cop out. The Black Council is much more interesting as a freely chosen evil.

I really hope Cowl isn't infected.

How does Nemesis infect people, anyways?

Not known as far as i know, but i suspect physical proximity to someone Nfected is needed.

Maybe wait until stuff is confirmed or we actually know how Nemesis works before calling it a copout? We know very little about Nfections. We can assume that Nemesis likely can´t Nfect an infinite number of people or assimilation would be a much more logical play instead of the spy/assassin stuff Nemesis usually does. But besides that nada, not even if Nemesis could actively control two beings at the same time. The Black Council could be composed entirely of Nemesis marionettes. Currently however i believe it´s much more likely that the Black Council is allied with Nemesis, but only one or two members are Nfected so the two parties can easily communicate, but don´t use up resources that would be better spent elsewhere.

I think they've all been infected, but only one or two at most are being directly puppeteered by Nemesis.

Nemesis isn't even that good at controlling people against their will. Remember that Maeve on some level wanted what Nemesis had to offer. Which makes one wonder what exactly Nemesis offered Justine.

IIRC Lea was infected via the athame she was given at Bianca's party, so clearly some form of physical contact is needed.

There's also Cait Sith, to whom it happened while he was fighting Ace's goons in the botanical gardens, presumably done by Maeve.

Cait Sith seems to indicate that being infected by Nemesis can happen very quickly.

Even without knowing the details, we know that 1) it can infect basically anybody, from the Winter Lady to a regular-ass mortal human, 2) it can break normal restrictions (eg an infected fae can lie and break promises), and 3) infection can remain dormant and undetected for years.

Whiiiiiiiich is basically a giant cop-out. Anyone could be revealed as secretly infected at any time — having been infected for any length of time — and it would be entirely consistent with the rules as we know them. Until and unless the story gives us a way to reliably detect and/or prevent infection, we're firmly in Only the Author Can Save Them Now territory. The threat presented by Nemesis is everywhere and can do anything. The only mitigating factors we know of are 1) starborn presumably can't be infected, and 2) infection can be cured (though it's a long and painful process).

Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that Butcher will use it badly. I don't expect him to suddenly start going "yeah literally all of Harry's friends are infected lol" or anything. But that doesn't mean that Nemesis isn't a huge narrative copout. Literally any character behavior could be explained with "lol Nemesis infection". How did that character get infected? Another infectee passed them on the street once thirty years ago (they've just been in deep cover since then). Why did Nemesis make them do that specific things? Lol Nemesis has plots within plots within plots (or maybe this is just a deliberate red herring meant solely to distract and confuse).

So yeah. Even if having it doesn't instantly make the story bad, Nemesis infection is absolutely a terrible narrative device to have in the story.

I don´t really disagree. Nemesis infections come pretty close to my least favourite plot-device (which is memory manipulation, which makes absolutely everything in the story unreliable), but the copout complaint wasn´t about Nemesis role in the story.

There´s nothing about the Black Council being controlled by Nemesis in the books, only that the two work together on certain things, with no indication as to the nature of said alliance. So i stand by my point that people should wait for confirmation before complaining about (specific) copouts, or at least until the details are there to make founded speculations. Otherwise it´s basicly just complaining about headcanon one doesn´t like.

When you look at Justine's life, it's not hard to imagine. No matter how charitably you paint it, she has a real lack of agency. It wouldn't be hard for Nemesis to work on her.

Yeah most likely Nemesis just offered her recovery so she could be with Thomas again, if it even had to offer anything. I think it takes serious willpower to resist just being taken by force and Justine wasn´t exactly known for that while she was with Thomas.

That is if my assumption is correct that she got Nfected while she was still being catatonic after Blood Rites and not that she got taken when she was already Laras assistant.

The Justine that we saw in Grave Peril is very different from the competent and collected Justine we see in the more recent books, so it could even have happened that far back.

Which kind of creates another issue with the Nemesis plot: there is NO reason for it not to have infected Thomas and used him to infect as many people around Harry as possible, as well as infecting Lara.

Edited by Galadriel on Mar 3rd 2024 at 12:50:11 PM

Maybe White Court members are unable to be infected because they already have a demon inside them.