The Dresden Files

As the person who started this particular offshoot discussion... I wasn't saying no corruption was going to happen. And I agree, he's got plenty of destructive potential on his own, and always has. Also, yeah, unintended consequences, agreed.

I was specifically talking about Harry's state of mind as he's accepting the Mantle, though: as a magic link and therefore based on his will at that instant, his specific mindset at that instant is possibly relevant. And, however much he might crave power at other times, he wasn't focused on it then. He also knows the potential for it to corrupt him. So might his subconscious as he was accepting it (as well as his conscious mind) have tried to do something about how the Mantle affects him?

edited 29th Oct '14 10:15:13 AM by PointMaid

It's possible. I know there was a Word of Jim (and apparently my Google-fu has failed to re-procure it) where he talked about how the mantle might actually come to have an adverse effect on Harry's magic over time.

And I think that might be because of that inherent cognitive dissonance between the wishes of the mantle and the wishes of Harry. If he keeps up his (so far rather successful) stubborn streak when it comes to letting the mantle exert his influence, it might end up negatively impacting him. It'll be an identity crisis waiting to happen, basically.

He did get a nice boost to ice magic without seeming to need to explicitly draw from the mantle, though. Although I suppose he's always drawing from it, per his unbroken spine.

Yeah, but that's because he's still reining in the mantle as best he can in terms of it exerting its personality. Right now there are basically two binary states in Harry's mind - that of being 'possessed' by the Winter Knight, and that of being Harry, with a few intrusive thoughts from the former in periods where he can't exact that much control.

But assume that control eventually starts slipping (as per something like cognitive automation) and suddenly he might be faced with the notion that he doesn't know where he begins and the mantle ends or vice versa. And that's when it'll start having an adverse effect on his power.

I could see that happening, yeah. Hopefully Butcher tones down the whole rape thing if it does — I get what he was going for, and it did have the intended effect, but it was still uncomfortable to read. As far as we know, mantles are for life, yeah?

Well, they can be shed, as Vadderung so neatly demonstrated.

So there's a way for Harry to get rid of it, he just doesn't know how yet.

EDIT: I just realized that there are newbies in this thread, and now I'm not sure whether or not to frantically spoiler tag ALL THE THINGS.

edited 29th Oct '14 10:30:06 AM by math792d

Are they still around? Well, I wouldn't read the discussions if I weren't caught up, at any rate.

Native Jovian's getting close though, right? Wasn't he on White Night last we heart of him?

@Ninety, I agree, though something tells me that the winter mantle's going to get worse before it gets better... And I really wish it would get better before I have to sit through another uncomfortably extensive description.

I think the most satisfying sex-related thing to occur in the Dresden Files was the one with Murphy because its conclusion was so jarring that it became one of the funniest scenes in the book.

Thank you inner Harry. Best. Warning. Ever.

I've finished up through Turn Coat at this point, but the stuff you're discussing is all the same stuff that was already spoiler'd, so no worries.

Regarding the conversation on intentions vs consequences, the story is pretty clear that your intentions when casting a spell change the nature of the spell. When Molly messes with her friend's head and her friend's boyfriend's head, she just wants what's best for the friend (so the spell goes alright) but she's angry at the boyfriend (so the spell gets warped and messes him up). It's also pointed out in Turn Coat that mind control can't really force you to use magic for the same reason — if some part of you doesn't want a spell to work, then it won't.

I think the best way to put it is that your intentions with magic have consequences in and of themselves. I don't know if it's to the point where you could shoot a fireball at someone's face without meaning to kill them (ie, you just wanted to scorch them a bit) and they'd definitely survive, but it's definitely been established that what you're trying to do with a given spell has a large effect on how that spell comes out.

edited 29th Oct '14 11:18:26 AM by NativeJovian

What did you think of Turn Coat? It's my favorite of the pre-Changes batch. Also, maaaaaan you're up on Changes. Prepare for whammies.

And yes, intentions do matter. They do effect how magic effects you, and they mean quite a lot.

What I think that Word of Jim was saying that, while intentions might matter for results and alter how things happen or effect you, legally, and even morally, it's the results that matter. If you kill someone with magic, it doesn't matter if you meant to or not, you are still guilty of it. You are still responsible for the consequences and results of your actions, no matter what your intentions for going them were.

Turn Coat was good! I complained a little about White Night because it seemed a little too much like self-contained filler, but Small Favors and Turn Coat definitely made up for that. The ending of Small Favors (specifically, Michael getting crippled, plus Ivy's torture) annoyed me, mostly because it seemed like unnecessary grimdark, but I'm pretty sure the former, at least, was to set up future plot points. Turn Coat was better about that overall, I thought — it was still a Bittersweet Ending, but it was much more satisfying overall.

Though the Dramatic Reveal at the end was extremely un-Genre Savvy. I mean, come on, you decide to unmask the mole in a room with hundreds of bystanders, most of which aren't (as far as you know) combat-ready even if they knew what was going on (which they don't) and some of which could be your mole's ally without you knowing about it? No wonder it blew up in his face.

edited 29th Oct '14 12:03:38 PM by NativeJovian

Yeah, but typically the mole is almost always revealed in a scenario where nobody is going to believe the revealer. I practically liked this version better because at least ''for once' the higher ups on the "good" side finally knew and had no choice but to admit that such a mole existed at the time rather than after it was too late.

And I agree, White Night always felt like filler to me. It had a lot of important stuff going on but it always felt a little disjointed from the rest of the series for some reason I can't quite explain.

Turn Coat was great. It did an amazing Job of making sure I, to some extent, respected Morgan, but also made sure that I would always dislike him far more than I could ever respect him.

Not me. Morgan's the man. Anyway, Michael's crippling, per Word of God, is his happy ending — now he's free from the responsibility of a Knight of the Cross and can raise his family in peace. Sort of.

Well, as to Micheal's bit, first off, read the short story "Warrior" it, deal s with that so well, and is my favorite of the short stories, and as to main series, well, keep reading.

As to the Ivy stuff, bad yes but, not really detailed and, kept vague enough not to really be grim dark.

As to the reveal, there really wasn't a better option. He had to do it in a way that made sure it wasn't just swept under the rug, then everyone knew it was true, and that would actually prove, to everyone, Morgan's innocence. Without the Council being able to ply politics with it.

Oh, I understand the restrictions they were laboring under, but the way they went about it practically invited a parting shot from the mole — and he obliged them, which got a bunch of people killed.

Harry probably just assumed that with the whole senior council there, there was nothing Peabody could do that would actually work.

Or his sense of drama got the better of him.

That too.

And really, who just carries around a lump of deathstone all the time for those "just in case" moments? I mean that trial should have been when Peabody was the least prepared for needing to make an escape, and yet he just has that stuff around on the ready?

edited 29th Oct '14 12:23:41 PM by MousaThe14

Also, The Warrior is not my favorite short story, but that's only because Heorot exists.

And while Heorot's subject matter is kind of uncomfortable, it has Sigrun Gard who is the second best character.

edited 29th Oct '14 12:48:17 PM by math792d

Why do you find it uncomfortable? (Also, it's kinda funny how each of our favorite characters corresponds to the mythologies we associate ourselves with the most.)

I've never liked sexual violence as a frame narrative. I haven't had any personal experience with the subject matter, it's just kinda icky for me, always has been.

That and in a series that otherwise tries to muck with the damsel in distress trope (at least that's what Susan was envisioned as,) it's surprisingly damselly.

edited 29th Oct '14 1:04:47 PM by math792d

As Halloween gift, Evil Hat has published the entire Vegas chapter of Paranet Papers for free.

here

Las Vegas is basically Demonreach's Evil Counterpart

APPARENTLY MURPH WRITES IN ALL CAPS?