Fallout: New Vegas

I just see telling them to establish a new khanate, whilst admonishing the NCR for imperialism, as grossly hypocritical. Apparently imperialism is bad when the NCR does it on-screen, but it's totally kosher when the Khans do it off-screen.

If the NCR forcibly spreading their control over new people and lands is bad, it follows that the same act is bad when anyone else does it, too. And unless you think there's nobody in Wyoming to get trampled under hoof, the Khans are going to have to subjugate some people to "carve out a mighty empire".

There apparently IS barely anyone up there. A few people but it's mostly wild lands by now. Not the settlement laced areas the NCR are grabbing up.

The funny thing pretty much is . . . if it weren't for fucking imperialist warmongers out there, the No Masters No Gods ending would be the best for humanity even in the real world. But, hey, since there's imperialist warmongers out there, the best thing for everyone is to be an imperialist yourself and drag everyone kicking and screaming into your "good" empire to prevent the bad ones from enslaving them instead. It's a catch 22 even in the real world. Can't do better than what they do, do what they do better than them.

There are barely any people in Wyoming now. The impression that I had was that the 'carving out' the Khans would have to do would be more of a battle against the wilderness, like in Zion. Roving yao guai, deathclaws and the like, the lack of agriculture or trade routes. That's not to say any potential Khanate would never absorb any other communities, but hopefully the Followers would encourage them to make peaceful overtures rather than conquering them by force.

Imperialism is bad when the NCR does it, when the Legion does it, when House does it, and yes, if the Khans did it that wouldn't great. The point isn't that the Khans will be inherently better than the NCR, but rather that it's not like the only two possibilities are 'the NCR is terrible' or 'everyone should join the NCR, period'. If you're going to argue that the Khans shouldn't exist because they're just as imperialist as the NCR, then by extension the NCR shouldn't exist either, and no one's saying that. It's a false dichotomy. The world is more complicated than Join Or Die when there isn't a war on.

I never actually said they shouldn't exist. I said that I have little sympathy for them and that their current situation is to the detriment of everyone (except the Legion) such that any change in the status quo that we are allowed to make is a net gain, as well as that I find simultaneously being mad at the NCR for imperialism and encouraging someone else to carve out an empire to be hypocritical. No Khan ending is to the benefit of everyone involved, and even their best ending simply has them turn around and do to others (and given their current numbers, unless they're conquering others or breeding explosively, their empire isn't likely to be mighty any time soon because there just aren't enough Khans to do it alone) what the NCR did to them.

Also, current population of Wyoming would seem like a poor indicator of post-apocalypse Wyoming, seeing as it presents few countervalue targets, unlike the heavily-nuked coasts.

The Khans can go be imperialist if it's okay that the NCR is doing the same (and given the nature of the beast that is a nation-state, I have little problem with either of them doing it). But if it's unacceptable that the NCR is imperialist, then telling the Khans to go act more like actual Mongols is also unacceptable for the same reason.

edited 15th May '17 1:21:56 PM by Balmung

An empire doesn't necessarily have to form exclusively through violent conquest. Enough people banding together can accomplish the same thing, and the NCR in its current state seems to have managed to squeeze out marginal people like the Khans and Followers of the Apocalypse. There could easily be others who prefer an alternative, particularly if and when the Legion collapses under its own weight. The infighting that's already occurring is hinted at driving people out of the Legion's expanding territory even in the present.

The example of the Mojave illustrates how it's not necessarily population size which determines power in the postwar world. The Boomers, the Families, Freeside and Westside, they're holding their own, for now, albeit not in the face of an actual Legion (or NCR) push. Knowledge, weaponry, and individual prowess mean a lot more without nations being able to bring the weight of billions of people or massive economies to bear. The NCR is noticeably overextended, and the Legion's vast numbers seem to come largely at the expense of bringing basically every warm body they've got to the Dam.

Even without breeding explosively (and why wouldn't they?), from the sounds of things the Great Plains are empty and isolated enough that the Khans could build their empire without too much in the way of interruption, and Fallout 4 aside, there's been about, what, 80 years between each numbered entry in the series? Plenty of time, generationally speaking.

The problem with the NCR isn't that they're absorbing other communities, it's how they're doing it. If the Khans did the same thing or worse, I would have a problem with that too. But I don't agree with the assumption that that's the only way for them to build their empire.

edited 15th May '17 3:29:46 PM by Unsung

Speaking of those who'd like to build empires, and usually fail, I finally managed to get Historical Propriety. By flensing Sallow with a Knife. Not a Combat Knife, or one of those fancy ones from Dead Money, or one added by a mod, but a plain, ordinary Knife. It helped that I had a few of my Amazon Brigade members with me, but they all got dropped when Sallow's lifebar had about half left, leaving about three or four highly pissed off Praetorians plus Vulpes Inculta, and there was no way I was going to pull out my Nyx Shotgun to mow them down until I'd remedied that situation. Stimpaks were the only things keeping me alive.

As soon as he dropped, boom! went the shotgun. We then wiped out everyone in the Fort that was wearing Legion uniform, along with that traitor Dale Barton.

First time I ever got Historical Propriety to pop. Which is nice.

On Wyoming: so, how many people or what percent of people have to object for it to count as "imperialism"? And which outweighs?

because if Wyoming being sparsely populated means that letting the Khans set up there is acceptable, then the reduced population density of the Mojave should also mean the NCR setting up there is just as acceptable, if not more so because the NCR at least offers something resembling a stable society with functioning infrastructure.

The Mojave already has cities. Traders. Farmers. It's already a society. I'm not saying I disagree that the NCR probably is their best bet, but still. False equivalence is still false.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you

It's not the expansion itself, it's how said empire treats the people it encounters. Opening up negotiations, forming mutually beneficial alliances, good, Strongarming them into a defense pact, setting up shop at their doorstep with no intention of leaving? Bad. It's how it happens, not the expansion or colonization itself. Wyoming's low population density isn't to say those people matter less than the people of the Mojave. Rather it could mean being able to colonize territories that are unsettled when the Khans' new empire reaches them.

As for stability and infrastructure, the Khans and Followers seem fairly stable at this point (other than being pushed, culturally speaking, apart from external forces breathing down their necks. Infrastructure and stability are things you can build, it's not like the NCR has a patent on the concept. If that's your argument, House offers stability. Caesar offers stability. Stability and infrastructure aren't the only factors worth considering here.

edited 16th May '17 11:59:57 AM by Unsung

Real equivalence is real. You cannot condemn the NCR for its ambitions in the Mojave and then turn around and say that encouraging the Khans to live like the actual Mongol hordes (albeit with some Followers helping them) is a-OK. If strongarming is your issue, even if Wyoming has large swathes of unsettled land, what do you suppose happens when the Khans find a small settlement on some land they want? Even your best case scenario is the Followers merely maybe influencing them to possibly seek a diplomatic solution, and even then it's a matter of convincing the Khans that it's actually better than just taking what they want (again, remember, you told them to follow the ways of the actual Mongol empire).

And if you're going to bring other factors into it, Caesar offers stability, yes, with about zero other advantages that any of the other factions bring, including infrastructure because their whole schtick is that that they raid others for everything. And yet the Khans' lifestyle doesn't even offer stability or infrastructure. Stability and infrastructure aren't the only things worth considering, yes, but when you have a world still in recovery from almost getting destroyed, they count for a hell of a lot more than some irrational attachment to a made-up culture that's less than 100 years old.

It's not the NCR's ambitions that are the problem, it's their actions. If Khans go about raping and pillaging across the land and leaving a surprisingly tidy infrastructure and trade route system in their wake, then the Followers aren't who I thought they were, but it's the Followers' influence that makes me think that they can do this without simply murdering their way throughout Wyoming and beyond.

I don't believe the Khans want more war. Mostly it seems like they just want their own land to live in without constantly being forced to relocate again and again.

I'm not honestly suggesting that Caesar or House are better than the NCR. That's the point— stability and infrastructure aren't the only things that matter. Freedom and human dignity matter as well. Do they matter as much as the progress of the whole human race, ie. restoring the prewar infrastructure? *weighing motions* It's a matter of degree. Ultimately you're going to have to prioritize one over the others, but it's which one you choose that's at the heart of the ideological skirmish in the Mojave.

You're assuming that the Khans can't possibly create a stable infrastructure, but the whole NCR sprang from a tiny farming village that didn't even know about crop rotation. The Khans certainly can't do it on their own, but they have the old world enlightenment of the Followers on their side, and there's nothing to say they won't find others to join them willingly as they build that empire the game's talking about.

It's not a guarantee that it will all work out perfectly, but what is? It's still better than wiping them out, turning them over to the Legion, or letting the NCR go on stepping on their head until they finally die out.

Looking at their past and their actions of everyone who has been known to lead the tribe, war is the only thing the Khans have ever wanted. The original Khans wanted to violently exploit their Vault 15 brethren in Shady Sands and got beaten down by the Vault Dweller for it. The survivors founded the New Khans to try to take down the young NCR and got beaten so hard they had to flee to Nevada. Papa Khan continues this trend, refusing House's offer and trying to do to the Families what the his ancestors did to Shady Sands and getting spanked by Securitrons and the advanced weapons House could offer the Families, and he also immediately reignited the old Khanate-NCR feud when the NCR arrived, culminating in Bitter Springs. Hell, they allied with the Legion because they wanted more war with the NCR.

Furthermore, to be a full member, you must go through their warrior initiation. Being good at chemistry or knowing how to administrate or any other conventional productive skills isn't what they're looking for, only the ability to take a beating and dish one out.

Also, having the Followers on their side is absolutely no guarantee that things will turn our well, or need I remind you what happened the last time a Follower helped a tribe form an empire? And hey, that time, they also used a highly militaristic Old World empire as a model. Getting the Followers involved guarantees somewhere between jack and shit. It could be great, it could be naught but Rape, Pillage, and Burn writ large. All we are told is that they form a "great empire".

Yes, the Khans can have their empire, but let's not pretend that they have any moral high ground or that their empire is likely to be any better a neighbor than the NCR.

edited 16th May '17 2:53:35 PM by Balmung

Never said they had the moral high ground. I can hope for the mediating influence of the Followers, but whatever happens, letting them make the attempt is better than grinding them down for the actions of a bunch of dumbass raiders 200 years ago, or preemptively punishing them for their hypothetical future empire's supposed crimes.

The Khans have been a warrior culture for a long time. But Papa Khan is old and set in his ways, and not all the younger Khans want to keep fighting the same old war with the NCR, because they know they can't win. There's a lot the Khans have to offer, warrior prowess included, that doesn't have to come down to a war of conquest. There are battles that need to be fought out in the Wastes, but putting down raiders and carving out a kind of safety on the great plains is different from a full-on war of aggression like the Legion is waging. I think the Khans like the idea of war, but I don't think they really want it, not if they actually knew what it was.

The point isn't that the Khans will be better, just that the NCR isn't so perfect that they'd be all that much worse. Got to take the good with the bad in both cases. The hope is that the Followers will be able to use the Khans muscle to spread their influence, not that the Khans will turn the Followers into a bunch of Sallowites.

I dunno, Joshua did a good job keeping his tribe protected.

Yep. Then he got help from the Left Hand of God to finish the job and crush the White Legs. And was talked into letting Salt Upon Wounds go rather than shooting him in the head with his customized 1911 A1 pistol. Because Cruel Mercy and all that kind of thing.

... Anyone know of a way to get every post in this thread into some kind of readable document, because there's a lot of good discussion therein, some I disagree vehemently with, some I like a lot, and some I contribute? I've heard of Ph D theses that weren't anywhere near involved as this thread gets.

I don't know if the forum has that tool, at least not in a way that the average poster can access.

...Also, apparently I said a bunch of this stuff last year, and said it slightly better, so here it is again, starting with this post.

The problem I see at least with the claim that the Khans don't necessarily have to be warlike is that you literally convinced them to be more like the actual Mongols, who were known best for...waging their wars of conquest that created the largest empire the world has ever known (well, a toss-up between them and the British Empire, depending on how you count).

Sure, you gave them the Followers.

But based on actual history, that just makes them the [[Yuan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan_dynasty]] rather than the Great Horde.

Which isn't necessarily bad, it's just...not superior to having the NCR rule everything.

I'll withdraw from that side of the argument. The only Fallout I've played to completion is 3, and I haven't done the Khan questline in NV.

I will say that not everyone wants to see Manifest Destiny repeat itself. Not every American is enamored with their state being locked at the hip to 49 others, and games like this give you an escape from that. Even if the only good way to do that is to set up rival Empires to keep another one down.

I'm just wondering where they got that Sherman tank, 'cuz I'd love to roll 30 tonnes of armor steel all over Caesar's Fort.

Yeah i always thought vehicles went funny in Gamebryo.

Just installed NV on my PC after having played through most of it on XBOX.

It really doesn't like windows 10. I've only put on the NMC texture upgrade, the 4k ram upgrade, no crash mod and a couple of clutter mods... but as soon as I put anything to do with new story quests, or NPC overhaul mods, the damn thing crashes.

So trying to do a delicate test of getting it working. Im going to do a vanilla run until I'm out of the Docs house then try to slowly turn on Mods til it breaks (Though I think its the NPC one that breaks it)

It seems to crash on loading or when trying to enter structures. Disappointing as this is my first experience of an Obsidian game actually dying on me (I KNOW!)

What's your graphics card? Some of those spit the dummy when confronted with New Vegas and Windows 10.

GTX 1060.

I hear that win10 and newer cards do go a bit wibble.

Reinstalled NV and the mods last night - got rid of the NPC overhaul and the Schoolhouse quest and so far no crashes. Textures are a bit better but Gamebryo is really showing its age now.

Once I've done a few of the stories / quests I may do the Bison Steve restoration quest or try the Goodsprings school one - I like mods that improve visuals and add immersion, rather than companion mods or additional weapons (Not sure how I feel about completely accurate M4 rifles in Fallout... but then again the SMG from F1 was clearly an MP 5...)

Gamebryo works fine in Fallout 4. Even modded. (er, well, now it does. I wouldn't have made that claim on its release a couple of years ago). It also looks quite nice. But that's due to I think Bethesda actually spending time optimizing the sucker in the long period they took to release it after Fallout 3, and bolting on some swanky new features like volumetric lighting and the rest. In New Vegas, Obsidian just had to make do with the version used in Fallout 3, which was way more shonky than in 4.

I know Bethesda call Nu!Gamebryo the Creation Engine internally, but that's just for tourists.

edit

I won't leave home without Nordic Firearms - that's got some really lovely weapon models in it.

edited 12th Jul '17 4:17:52 AM by TamH70

The fallout games before 4 do not like win 10, Fallout 3 wont even run on Win 10 sadly.

edited 12th Jul '17 4:54:58 AM by Memers