The Wheel of Time

It's not that, at least not specifically. I like (and I say this with the risk of being burned at the stake) the Twilight books and their author is Mormon.

It does have to do with his beliefs however, and the condescending callous, and highly ignorant tone he takes in his stance in regards to gay rights and other issues. Mostly it's the fact that he used his fame as a successful writer to endorse those beliefs.

edited 8th Mar '12 5:19:27 PM by LMage

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

Looking a bit back through his reddit, it seems like he's making a legitimate effort to progress on these issues, and he now realizes how damaging tone can be.

I can't really condemn a guy who admits his faults and improves on them, especially when it doesn't seem like he has any real hatred for gays.

It's not even so much that as it is that he used his fame and following as a writer, rather then the content of his writings, to push his own views. If he wrote openly homophobic angels into his books that I would argue against his presentation of the issue and discuss the flaws in it, and I would still respect him as a writer and a person, as I respect Terry Goodkin and Stephine Myer despite finding their personal beliefs abhorrent at worst, foolish at best.

But Sanderson didn't do that (to my knowledge), he used his popularity as a soapbox from which to push his views. I can not, and will not, respect a man that would do that.

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

That's the power, and there were five elements of the power if you recall. There's more to reality than just the power.

Fight smart, not fair.

It's been a long time since I read the series. Does anyone know when the next book will come out?

Sony fan here.

The last one comes out next year.

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

Damn, I understand that Sanderson's being cautious and all, but it still sucks that this series won't end until next year. I mean, I just REALLY want this series to end. I've waited too long for this conclusion.

Sony fan here.

Blame the Editor, she is the one being overly cautious, Sanderson finished the book a month or so ago. Then again, it's her husband's legacy, so you can't blame her.

L Mage, I think you have a personal issue with Sanderson, since I have not felt him to use his books as a soap box. Oh, I have many issues with his take on Wheel of Time(like the infamous Mat and the rambling about women and dice bit, totally not Jordan) but I think you are making a non issue. So the guy has religious beliefs, let him have it. Doesn't affect his writing Wo T one yot, there is an editor to keep him in check.

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Except for the part where he wrote a whole long statement about his views on the subject and posted it on his website, that's the definition of Soap Boxing.

I would be fine if he just had the beliefs and kept them to himself, I would be fine if he used his books and writing as an actual means of presenting those beliefs (though not in the case of this series), what I'm not fine with is him using purely his fame and influence to push any belief.

And yes, everything about Mat has bugged me in The Gathering Storm, except for maybe his meeting with Verin. I think Sanderson was trying to overplay Mat's comedic relief tendencies (that have been sort of absent since A Crow Of Swords) without any of the subtlety that actually made him funny.

edited 11th Mar '12 8:16:05 AM by LMage

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

Well...it *is* his website, his personal space, he can ramble whatever he wants on his own space, I guess. But I would like a link to the article before making an opinion.

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Link He latter went back and added a bit to it for...some reason.

Like I said I don't have a problem with him espousing his views, but I can't respect someone who uses their fame as a Soap Box. Say what you will about Myer and Goodkin but at they very least they have the courage to use their actual books to defend and push their views, even if I disagree deeply with those views.

Back On Topic: I finished the Gather Storm two days ago and I have to say that while it might not be the best in the series, it defiantly has some of my favorite moments. Egwene blasting raken out of the sky is now "Most Awesome Moment Yet" in my book. :P

Can't wait to start Tower Of Midnight.

edited 11th Mar '12 6:52:26 PM by LMage

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

I would rather someone keep their personal views out of their books (This may be impossible to do 100%) than to put them in and make the book unenjoyable for me.

@L Mage: I'm not sure I understand your point. Authors will always have political viewpoints. Does it suddenly become wrong for them to write about what they believe in when they have fandom, in their own personal space? How big does the fandom need to be? Should you also hate Neil Gaiman, Lemony Snicket, Tamora Pierce, George R. R. Martin et. al. because, by your logic, they're forcing their ideas on others by posting about it while they have a fandom?

Neil Gaiman wrote that he has to be careful about what he does, in case it mobilises his fans to act unthinkingly, but there's a difference between trying to force views on someone, and simply writing what you think as an individual, and leaving it up to the reader's judgement. I see the latter in what Sanderson has written there. In fact, I was wondering if you meant some other article, because that's the only gay rights article I could remember, and it didn't strike me as forcing beliefs on anyone. Yes, I disagree with him strongly, and I hope he changes his mind. That's exactly what I like about that article: that he is open to change and reason, he advocates frank discussion of it, and he makes it clear that it's his own personal view, unlikely to be shared by others.

I'm glad that Sanderson is able to distance his personal views from his books. Just imagine if he were to write Wo T politically. Distancing himself allows him to write compelling characters who think differently from him, like Jasnah (an atheist, and not a flat or unbelievable one) in The Stormlight Archive.

"Doctor Who means never having to say you're kidding." - Bocaj

I'm with Galeros. If you have to bury your views in a story to people people to listen, that's a good sign that you shouldn't bother.

Fight smart, not fair.

That's not quite what I'm saying.

I would much rather read a story in which the beliefs of the author are thematic or allegorical to the story (C.S Lewis for instance, I disagree deeply with him on many issues but his stories are among my favorites), because even if I disagree with the author I can respect him or her for making their point in their work itself. What I can't respect about Sanderson is that he used his fame rather then his skill to push his views.

I may not be making sense here.....

Also in no way would I want him to use Wo T for this purpose (since I don't count it as his series) but rather his own books.

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

I read the article... and actually found it long winded and frankly...BORING. But in any case, I feel he was just trying to plug the gap between conservatives and Rowling, and I took as that.

Also, when he wrote this, he was *unknown* (the article originally being five or so years ago) so I don't see how he was using his success as a soap box, when he had no success in the first place back then.

Frankly, I have read authors that believe worse *cough*Pern*cough* and compared to that, I find Sanderson...tame.

BTW, I belong in the camp where we believe authors should *NOT* force their issues in to books (Narnia and the Suddenly-Stocking-Smitten-Susan, how I hate thee) so I am actually happy he confined it to a blog post that vanished under the load of his other posts. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Actually, I think we are digressing from the point of this thread, which is discussing WOT, and if we have to continue this discussion, we should continue it in the Brandon Sanderson thread.

---

I would like this opportunity to remind you that our favourite Blue, Moiraine Damodred, is going to participating in the SuVuDu Cage Match, and her first opponent is going to be... Tarzan. yeah....

SuVuDu has it's own thread, so discuss there, but make sure to vote for her, I would die of shame if she lost to a tree swinging monkey boy.

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I heard about that on Tumblr

It might be a problem for Moraine if she can convince herself he is a Darkfriend/Shadowspawn,since she want be able to use the One Power in battle until he attacks her directly, but I still think she should win.

I've started Towers Of Midnight and I have to say that this far.....the time disoance is killing me.

Like...it feels like Elayne's first few scenes and Perrin's entire arc this far (I'm as far as Morgase being selected as judge to try him for killing White Cloaks) should have either have been moved to the last book or Rand's whole Epiphany Therapy should have been bumped up to this book. Probably I would have preferred the former (since I am getting a kick out laighterandtears!Rand).

Otherwise I am generally like this book a lot :). Mat still feels OOC a lot of the time and Gawyn is still boring and annoying to read about (though he's gotten marginally better with his whole "lost puppy warder/pinning over Egwene shtick") but so far so good.

edited 12th Mar '12 9:13:47 AM by LMage

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

Mat's character has proved to be a big problem for Sanderson, but I think he got a lot better in Towers of Midnight. Maybe Sanderson just isn't very good at writing humour?

"Doctor Who means never having to say you're kidding." - Bocaj

My big grip with Sanderson in these books is that he's subtle at all the wrong times-during Nyneave's testing and Semirhage's attack for instances, both moments that should have huge emotional impact I was bored to tears with how much he downplayed the gravity of it all, then during Mat's scenes it's like he's trying to slap us in the face with all of Mat's more "funny" qualities, even at it's height Mat's humor had a subdued subtle nature to it that was left mostly up the reader to interpret, but with Sanderson he throws subtlety out the window and plays Mat to the point of caricature.

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

I think it's more of a problem in that Sanderson seems to see Mat as primarily a clown. He always had a sense of humor, and the stuff he'd get himself into could be funny, but he had an edge to him, as well. Under Sanderson, it seems like his IQ has dropped several points and he's become a bit of a buffoon.

^That could be it, though I've also noticed that Sanderson doesn't do humour that well in his other works. Shallan in The Stormlight Archive comes to mind, though the Wit is rather better at it.

"Doctor Who means never having to say you're kidding." - Bocaj

I just finished Towers Of Midnight, and while it was good over all I liked The Gathering Storm better.

Moraine x Thom just sort of came out of nowhere with very little explanation, but I didn't mind the whole Tower of Ghenjei sequence as much as I thought I would, though it did still feel rushed.

Egwene continues to be one of the most badass characters in the books, though laughterandtears!Rand comes close. Perrin's whole plot line kind of bored me, as did all the time I had to spend in Gawyn's head (when did he become a major character? why do I care about his angst again?), but neither was as bad as Mat's whole bit.

But the most clearly disturbing part of the books was the "Way Forward ter'agnrel" bit....it caught me completely off-guard and made me down right terrified mostly because well...I never conceived a ending where the Seanchan didn't get there asses whooped all the way back to their own continent. I mean....there shouldn't been an ending where such a horrible group of people are allowed to remain un-crushafied....right?

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

Emotionally, I'd agree with you, but I think the Seanchan are going to be "allowed" to remain in control of those places that were only thinly controlled by anyone to begin with (like Ebou Dar). I imagine the reasoning is going to be that they're a force for stability. I imagine Rand and/or Egwene are going to wring some concessions out of 'em, though.

I honestly don't know what is going to happen with the Seanchan anymore with their whole "collar ALL the damane" initiative, and Tuon's utter refusal to bend on the issue.

It wouldn't be so bad if they where confined to Ebou Dar and similar places, but short of a complete 180 on the invasion by Tuon and company I don't see how that's going to happen.

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

Other than that, I don't think they'd be easy to dislodge. Beyond that whole "collar the damane" thing, they're one of the more aggressively intelligent groups you see.

Fight smart, not fair.