Vampire: Bloodlines

Is gangrel intersting? it look like barbarian/furry brujah and dosent really seen that intersting to begin with, compared to tremere and assamities

Gangrel are more like outdoors/survivalist vampires whose connections w/ their Beasts tend to be more literal than other Clans. While Brujah tend to be stereotyped as "every angry counterculture & rebel stereotype across the sociopolitical spectrum and across all cultures all rolled into one"

Anyway, mildly disappointed that neither the Hecata/Nagarajah, Tzimisce nor Salubri were revealed as a playable clan, though I do understand why those 3 couldn't be considered playable.

Edited by KRider on Dec 6th 2023 at 8:59:02 AM

Hectate and Nagarajah are distinct (the latter is a bloodline, not a clan, and pre-V5 unrelated) and have far too much baggage to make for a good Elder PC. Likewise Salubri are a bloodline now and there are only meant to be 7 in canon so again, far too much baggage. And the Tzimisce disciplines would be so difficult to implement into a PC name, on top of most of the clan being walking masquerade breaches.

Much like djoki on the previous page I'm ultra bummed out that Toreador isn't one of the starting clans since its my favorite of all the vampire clans. I don't even like any of the chosen four so I don't have much reason to buy the game till some manner of dlc hits that adds in the missing clans.

Edited by Silentedge89 on Dec 6th 2023 at 11:40:09 AM

Hecata was formed when all the Necromancy-using Clans combined together w/c is why I added a / between Hecata and Nagarajah to indicate a character who's Hecata now but either had a formerly Nagarajah sire or was a Nagarajah before the unification happened. There's even a Hecata Lore Sheet w/c you can apply to your character during character creation in the pen and paper that allows you to be a Hecata of Nagarajah Ancestry. And the last book to feature Salubri (Lore of the Bloodlines in 20th Anniversary Edition) did explicitly say that there are more than 7 Orthodox Salubri, not just counting the Salubri Antitribu and Wu Zao, and the 7 were akin to Bodhisattvas. But that would deviate too much from this specific thread and delve more into the actual Vt M thread.

Edited by KRider on Dec 6th 2023 at 9:47:56 AM

Ah, and it is done! The core clans are named!

I'm not a huge fan of Ventrue myself—but I do think that it likely makes for a good "social" clan, one that might be useful if there's significant non-combat gameplay present.

It is, perhaps, a bit obvious.

Depending on how much social gameplay there is, it may be little surprise that Nosferatu aren't included—they seem to me like they could be rather difficult to work around under certain social conditions.

As to which clans are interesting...

I'm quite intrigued by this "assassin" clan, my favourite right now is Tremere, and I kind a like the "rebellious youth" vampires—plus the last of those again seems like it might be good for social gameplay—so... this roster actually looks pretty interesting to me, personally, at least.

Which suggests, then, that it might be less that the devs wanted to hold back the interesting clans for paid DLC than that different people find different clans interesting—perhaps these are the interesting clans to the devs.

(Well, the interesting clans that play nicely with the sort of game that they want to make. As noted, I could see, for example, Nosferatu being a pain to work with, depending on what they intend.)

Since Banu Haqim is 1 of the playable Clans and the game did mention that you're an Elder here, that made me wonder whether you're an Assamite who was part of the group who officially joined the Camarilla (as per 5th ed) or you're still associated w/ the Old Clan who're loyal to Ur-Shulgi. At least it's 5th ed so you no longer go blacker w/ age.

Edited by KRider on Dec 7th 2023 at 5:04:03 AM

Which Clans people find interesting will likely depend on what they like about VTM to begin with, as well as vampire-fiction in general. I like vampires primarily as unholy monsters who are losing their humanity, with vampirism as a corruption. I generally dislike attempts at making vampires genuinely romantic beings, because I prefer any romanticism about vampires to be fake, as they pretend to not be monsters. Depending on the story, I like my vampires as monsters with nuance, brought from how they choose to handle their undead state of existence.

Toreador are among the Clans most in touch with their humanity and might often try to keep some of their humanity intact, which does offer interesting roleplay fodder, if we go with the tragedy of a vampire becoming monstrous even when they do not want to. But I prefer the Clans that are more obviously monstrous, who have a better understanding of their sucky situation and try to unlive with it as they see fit. That's why I like Nosferatu so much, but also the Gangrel.

Superficially Gangrel are similar to Brujah, by being stereotyped as violent thugs, but the Brujah are more connected to their human side and capable of very human passion in spite of being walking corpses. The Gangrel are more in tune with their Beast and more anti-social than the Brujah generally are, which makes them often more adept at accepting their unlife and that they are no longer human. What I like about the Gangrel for roleplaying is that there is so much potential to explore the dichotomy of civilization vs savagery, city-life vs wilderness, or humanity/control vs monstrous abandon. You could go with an anti-social misanthrope who sees their vampirism as an opportunity to finally be rid of the shackles of society, only to be told that no, you will still have to play by the rules of undead society, causing great frustration to be driving force of characterization. Another opportunity could be a Gangrel who isn't really anti-social to begin with, or even that bothered by modern society, but who upon undeath starts to feel an internal conflict, when instincts incompatible with human life start to get expressed. You can follow the stereotypes as much as you want, or subvert them as much as you want. While also being a vampire who takes a literally predatory aspect. That's why I find the Gangrel interesting.

Is gangrel intersting? it look like barbarian/furry brujah and dosent really seen that intersting to begin with, compared to tremere and assamities

Gangrel have the ability to grow claws and shapeshift into animals, along with animal control, giving them a Feral Vampires aesthetic and a really unique flashy set of powers. Brujah have generic Boring, but Practical Super-Strength and Super-Speed, along with a Charm Person power that's already covered by Ventrue, and the only thing particularly unique about them is their stereotypical anarchist/revolutionary aesthetic, which technically applies to all Anarch. So yeah, as far as I am concerned, Gangrel are more interesting. There's a reason Brujah always was my least favourite Clan back in the original game, and I didn't remotely miss them when moving to Vampire the Requiem.

No offense intended to any Brujah fan, but personally they just never did it for me. They're literally the only Clan I never bothered to do a complete walkthrough of in the original game, because I got too bored.

Edited by Theokal3 on Dec 7th 2023 at 6:19:05 AM

Funny thing is Brujah's old gimmick before modern nights was that of passionate philosopher kings. The angry revolutionary stereotype happened during the Anarch Revolt and stuck around after multiple human revolutions. Plus they're still sore after their pet project of Carthage fell to Ventrue's Rome.

You forgot mist form and merging w/ the earth while sleeping w/c helps w/ their nature survivalist aspect.

EDIT: Wait mist form and earth meld fall under flashy power sets.

Another thing Gangrel have mechanically is Fortitude as a Clan Discipline w/c allows them to soak even sunlight if they're lucky. Brujah are Glass Cannons w/ megaphones by comparison.

Edited by KRider on Dec 7th 2023 at 7:04:39 AM

They released a gameplay reveal earlier today:

I've watched the video now, and I think my first impressions lean positive. Or at least, more positive than they were prior to seeing the gameplay. They don't show off a lot of stealth, but the levels look relatively open and traversal seems interesting enough that it could be fun. They do some gliding and there's a bit where they use telekinesis to grab a bottle and throw it as a distraction. Which, yeah, is really some of the bare basics you'd hope from a game with a stealth element, but is still nice to see, albeit I don't know how interactable the environment will ultimately end up. Combat and its animations look a bit janky, but otherwise serviceable enough for a game with a focus on atmosphere and story. The illusions seem to make shouts about "thinblood justice" which seems... odd?

I think the general approach to dialogue might turn off a few people. Aside from the dialogue options being summaries, there's plenty of bits where Fabien and Phyre just automatically talk and discuss things as you go through the level. It's not something I'm inherently against but is obviously a shift from the more blank-slate of the original game. I'm somewhat curious about the conversation at 14:10 — if there's any other way that plays out or if you can "win" the conversation somehow. If it just always ends up in Willem being exploded that's obviously something of a letdown, at least if this goes for most social encounters.

They also don't really show off any character progression, build-type stuff. I don't know what that side of the game will look like, or if they're moving in a more action-oriented direction.

A week ago they posted a dev diary where they talked a bit more about what they want out of the combat and what sort of approaches they want the game to have.

Edited by Lavaeolus on Feb 1st 2024 at 6:34:50 PM

The trippy visuals during the illusions remind me of recent games like Layers of Fear, but otherwise I am getting vibes of a noir-ish detective thriller. Very different from the original Bloodlines, but it does feel like it could be set in the World of Darkness.

That was... a lot more fun than I expected. They mentioned intentionally picking the more aggressive options, so I assume things could go differently if other choices are made. It also seemed like stealth was an option.

We don't see the character progression, but we do see the character gaining experience (100/500), so there is some sort of leveling.

Interesting!

I don't know whether they'd mentioned the effect of the mark before, but I'm guessing that its function of limiting the protagonist's powers serves as a part of character progression: instead of gaining new powers, you recover old ones. I kinda like that.

The combat and stealth gameplay reminded me of what I've seen of Dishonored, and I quite liked it. The gliding looks pretty cool and fun, as do the various uses of telekinesis.

The actual combat looked okay to me—I might have liked some more options, but those might come later in the game.

I did quite like their application of what I imagine was a form of Celerity, allowing the player to place in slow-motion targets for punches—and potentially on multiple foes—and then see them executed at inhuman speed.

On the social side, it does sound from the commentary that dialogue choices will have some impact on the way that conversations go. In particular, they mention that a Brujah trying to angrily intimidate people will work on some, be laughed off by others, and incite anger in return by another—which last may have advantages...

I do like that they mention that there are "quite a few" puzzles in the game, albeit specifically using the "heightened senses" ability. It's not clear whether all puzzles will do so—I'd be a little disappointed if so. Still, I think that there is some good potential there.

They also touch again on the question of the protagonist's backstory: it sounds like the player is never definitively told the backstory, but rather picks and chooses what is true—what suits the character that they want to play—from what they hear from others. It's a neat approach that I rather like.

Also, I really like Phyre's voice, both in the acting and in the sound of it. ^_^

17:50: I like the idea that this is all about someone drawing moustaches on our protagonist as she slept, and the plot follows her trying to find the prankster. :P

Indeed, they mentioned that a Banu Haqim would likely stealth through the encounter, as I recall.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Feb 1st 2024 at 7:32:39 PM

I'm just eight minutes in and I hate everything I see. Phyre's presence is even more obnoxious than I expected, not only does she have a goofy-ass name and a frankly uninspired VA but she's also accompanied by some random annoying-ass dude commenting on everything. It's like the devs specifically wanted to go out of their way to murder any hope of immersion.

The combat and stealth is tolerable but that was never what made Bloodlines 1 great, improving on it doesn't earn you points if you're actively rejecting the original's strengths. It's like a less competently made Dishonored but without that game's focus on immersion.

Way to show you respect the series Chinese Room -_-

Edit: Oh, and there's a Fallout 4 style dialogue system. Amazing. The devs have genuinely learned nothing.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 1st 2024 at 10:59:16 AM

The Female VA is Sypha from Castlevania, BTW.

Mostly my reaction is much-much more positive than previously. This a lot funner than the original gameplay shown for stealth and combat in the previous game trailer by Hardsuit Labs.

I'm ignoring any and all Youtube reactions, though. One thing I've decided is that if anyone complains about the social aspect of the game and refers to this trailer, you should definitely ignore anything they have to say on all future posts. Because this is about showing off the combat gameplay, which they say repeatedly, and anyone who is ignoring that isn't actually interested in the game but just trying to sell clickbait.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Feb 1st 2024 at 11:04:36 AM

Holy shit, really?

Damn, then it must be writing and vocal direction. That's incredible.

I mean, it didn't just show combat. We also saw a fairly large amount of the dialogue between Phyre and Fabien, which is both a social element (albeit one that players have zero control over- great RPG design devs) and a major component of the atmosphere. I'm not sure why you're acting as if people couldn't get anything from it.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 1st 2024 at 11:10:36 AM

I assumed that they purposefully chose for the video all the aggressive options that would lead to the bloodiest results, but that there is also a possibility to minimize bloodshed by taking a different approach. There could be future videos that showcase the same basic scenario again, except with a focus on stealth or social interaction. I hope that there is a possibility to talk down Willem in the confrontation, but this being Vt M, I would not be surprised if it were All for Nothing and his collar is remotely detonated.

One thing I do notice looking back: killing enemies gets you XP! I know this is something almost every RPG does, so maybe this observation comes off as a bit trite. I'm not surprised Bloodlines 2 is using a slightly more traditional XP/level-up system than the original. But one thing I did like about Bloodlines was that, for the most part, it only gave out XP for achieving quest objectives or resolving encounters.

Depending on the game's progression, this might be a bit nitpicky: I assume completing quests is still going to give you the bigger chunks of XP and that stressing over 10 XP from Mook #83 probably isn't worthwhile in the long-run. It does mean you're incentivised to play the assassin over the ghost, though – which admittedly might fit in more with the vampire fantasy angle they're going for.

Edited by Lavaeolus on Feb 1st 2024 at 10:09:51 AM

I wouldn't say this is nitpicky at all, as you say VTM 1 went out of its way to only reward exp for completing objectives and for good reason. It meant that peaceful or stealthy playstyles were just as viable as their action-centric counterparts.

Ditching it is simply more evidence of how indifferent (at best) the devs were to the original's many strengths.

You assume that it's not the same here, even though we have not seen how things work if you use stealth instead of brute force. While you might be right you should wait until we know for sure instead of making assumptions.

I personally both like and dislike this. On the one hand, getting quests only from quest was an issue for me since it means the number of exp you got through the game was finite - which was a bit frustrating since if you chose the wrong stats or Disciplines to increase, you were stuck. On the other hand, getting xp for killing enemies.... kinda begs to encourage murderhoboing.

Frankly if they want to convince me that their XP system is comparable they need to give evidence. So far they've shown a change that is at best unnecessary, at worst negative. Their other design decisions have not pleased me so I don't feel the need to give them the benefit of the doubt.

There's nothing wrong with waiting for more evidence but it's not necessarily owed.

To be fair this is more of a reason to add some kind of re-spec option then to ditch the system.

But both of these are good points.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 2nd 2024 at 10:06:32 AM

What?

Where are you getting that? I see nothing in the video to indicate that the player has no control over the dialogue.

After all, we only saw one path through the dialogue tree here—why would we think that all paths necessarily lead to the same ending?

Well, not necessarily, depending on how they implement their stealth: I could easily see them awarding XP for enemies avoided (or perhaps for enemies who never detected the player); possibly at the end of a given encounter.

(In fact, I seem to vaguely recall some other game doing something to that effect.)

We'll see, I suppose!

I'm talking about the dialogue between Fabien and Phyre, there's no evidence that the player can determine what they say.