Bakemonogatari

Ah, but you didn't get my point. In Kizu itself, she found out that this "star" (she always calls him a star)was really a weak boy driven by his own desires who rushed forward even in tears( if I remember Neko White right, it has been awhile since I read it),she describes him as such, though she still thinks of him as a hero. So she was initially curious about the "hero" but fell in love with something else.

She fell in love of him more for his weakness, which she goes on about in Tsubasa Tiger when she says "I'll get into when I actually fell in love with him later". Which was more trolling by Nisio, since we won't ever get to hear about that.

Edit: Actually looking back on past conversations, holy crap Clarste, did you really say that the end of Neko White was a happy ending? The epilogue showed that getting her room was just her asserting herself, it didn't magically fix the family, the only thing she got out of that was her emotions and self-identity back. It was made plain her life is still somber, though Nisio didn't really dwell on that part. Her crying because of going back home after staying with Hitagi post-arc kind of made apparent that the bad blood wouldn't just go away with her asking for a room.

edited 22nd Apr '14 4:21:42 PM by AOG

I'd say it's at least a hopeful ending, since she's now able to assert herself, which she didn't really do before. While those family problems will remain, she now has a better chance of moving on and living a healthy life one day.

Becoming like the University Quartet of Quirky Adults, is not a normal or healthy life.

edited 22nd Apr '14 8:32:16 PM by vandro

Indeed. Even Kaiki points this out when she offhandedly says she planned a nomadic lifestyle of helping people after high school, which while you can see it as cool, is heartbreaking when you realize she spent New Years all alone (even if there was that whole evading Gaen thing)and nothing really changed for her in the long run except her attitude, she just takes it in stride.

edited 23rd Apr '14 5:28:33 AM by AOG

She chose to be human, not to be happy. Happiness is less important in this series.

She ain't becoming human, she is becoming omniscient.

Too bad that has been what has been her bane since childhood, and why Gaen's words almost got her visibly angry.

Happiness means different things to different people. Take her final "No, its not okay" in Neko Black in refuting Araragi's assertion to accept being miserable. In her current incarnation, she seems to take a different path than we saw Kaiki do with Nadeko, which is accepting being unhappy to avoid hollow happiness, and going a different route: finding what happiness means for her even in her screwed up life.

edited 25th Apr '14 11:00:19 AM by AOG

And just in case you all missed it, the actual OP for Shinobu Time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CckYk8Aw7bQ

While I agree that the situations are different, the fact that you cited something she said way before her final change of heart and self-resolution kind of undermines your point. She said that when she was literally at her worst.

I cited that because it seems that what she says in her sleep is the absolute truth of her feelings (which is why Oshino took advantage and got her to spill how she created Black Hanekawa for his story gathering on apparitions). Her telling him "no, its not okay" blind-sided his self-satisfied notions that his savior was just as messed up as he was. It was odd, that fight, it almost seemed as if he thought he found a kindred spirit in a way, but at the same time, he wanted her to be the same guide/savior for him. I might be wrong, but her response seemed like she stubbornly wanted to be happy, which us why she rejected that, some part of me thinks that was why she didn't kill her parents.

His answer of, "you're right, everything you say is right." has many interpretations. Was it disappointment, self-loathing, understanding, or a mix of those? I can't decide which.

The end of Tsubasa Cat was very much the same if you analyze her talking her sleep and his response. The two even talk about that on the character commentary.

edited 25th Apr '14 5:07:09 PM by AOG

Both Tsubasa Family and Tsubasa Tiger ended with her in a bad place. It doesn't matter if that's the truth of what she was feeling, what she was feeling was screwed up at that point.

True enough I guess, although you'd never guess that from the anime version of White, which cut out the epilogue and her instability. Her story is moving forward with those "bad" feelings.

And no opinions on the new version of Oni's OP? I thought it was pretty nice for an alternative.

edited 26th Apr '14 5:01:50 AM by AOG

Which part of the epilogue was left out in the anime? I seem to recall it does mention her newfound emotional instability.

The OP's pretty interesting, though I do find it slightly curious that there's a brief frame of Shinobu(?) standing on a bridge looking down at Araragi on the road below. It doesn't bring to mind any major scene in their time together. Symbolic? Or perhaps just artistic licence?

They didn't mention her crying when leaving Senjougahara's place, or the talk the two had where she mentioned taking in the Enflaming Tiger and Meddlesome Cat made her really unstable and she and Senjougahara fought often during her stay, a lot of stuff, including tracing the origins of the Enflaming Tiger talk with Shinobu.

They actually missed plenty of internal dialogue that was really important, same reason they added the part about abuse in the letter they left out later on (if they showed her whole letter monologue, it would have taken another ep, but it still had important points).

As for the OP, yeah, its Shaft's symbolic imagery at work. Probably highlighting their separation in that arc.

The bit about Hanekawa fighting with Senjougahara was definitely included, albeit only in narration. They might indeed have left out the discussion about the tiger's origins though, I can't remember entirely.

It was in passing though, and that was one of the scenes that was very important in understanding why she and Hitagi had such a strange bond (beyond just being about Koyomi), their real feelings on Araragi, and cleared up Hanekawa's mindset during Bake. Plus an adorable scene with Hitagi and her father that really humanizes her.

It also why I think Shaft added the other parts of the letter not in the show on the B Ds, it was critically important to the narrative and paints an almost entirely different picture without it.

Shaft being Shaft, Hanamonogatari is now delayed until August 15th. Good news is that all 5 episodes will air that day.

Hmmm

I'm ok with this, if it will keep Hana high quality

Damnit. And here I was waiting for the season to start. I sure hope the quality is worth it.

Obviously the episodes will be rushed but fixed for DVD. Just like always. To be honest I never really expected Hana to air this season.

I know the whole facing your own demons is a major theme in series (and it is a fairly universal theme in most cultures) but does that Araragi shouldn't not had done anything at all? Nisio uses Jungian concepts such as the Shadow Archetype and The Self in Monogatari to expose its characters as flawed humans but Araragi only seems to hinder the girls from solving their own problems. There is also the whole 'do not intefere with someone's else's problems' Japan has although it can also be applied anywhere as you can actually make the situation worse by interfering. My question is, should Araragi has stayed out of everyone's problems? Or should Araragi had assess the situations he gets himself into?

Though he does often make things worse, the problems exist before he gets there and generally come to be controlled through his help.

I suppose it's like having some weird medicine which temporarily worsens a disease's symptoms in the process of curing it. That said, he's still usually no more than a catalyst in that regard; he doesn't cure the girls, he gets them to cure themselves.

edited 18th Jul '14 4:33:31 AM by Ernie

I can agree with that. A few characters would have been outright dead without his intervention (Sengoku, anyone Hanekawa Black potentially attacked, Tsukihi.) and some would have suffered a fate they didn't like (Senjyogahara, Hachikuji).

Due to how spiritualism works in this show (Jungian concepts overlap very well with old Japanese folklore), it's up to every person to fix their own issues at the core, but they might need a push from someone else.

In some cases he should have done nothing. In some cases he should have done something different. In some cases what he did was fine. It tends to depend on how stupid and self destructive his first idea is.

I think Araragi's conversation with Senjougahara's father contains the series' stance on this issue: being there for someone is more important than doing something for someone. Araragi's presence isn't a problem in and of itself, but sometimes he tries to go further and screws things up.

Honestly this is a classic "relationship advice" problem: in general people don't want you to try to solve their problems for them. They just want you to understand them. Trying to solve them yourself implies you think they're incompetent and is generally kind of rude. People constantly trying to solve things for each other ends up with broken relationships.

edited 18th Jul '14 11:46:04 PM by Clarste