Does anyone else wanna join me in bitching about how utterly horrible this show is?
I liked it better when Questionable Casting was called WTH Casting Agency
Takat Empress
Go ahead. :V
Mileena Madness
I cannot believe that the writers had the gall to end this mid-season like this.
I actually think that, as hard as losing Carl would be, I may actually be even more mad if they find some cheap way to keep him alive.
Why don't the writers go full cop-out and have the whole show turn out to be Rick's Dying Dream when he's in the hospital at the beginning?
edited 10th Dec '17 9:28:11 PM by BearyScary
I liked it better when Questionable Casting was called WTH Casting Agency
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Nah-that would imply the world was not a sack of crap. Instead, have most of the show being Rick's break from reality while he is begging Shane not to kill him-this time, for real, Shane gutshoots Rick and leaves him to bleed out.
Alas, I think you were going for gall, not gallery.
Darn autocorrect. Thanks for the heads up.
Probably the best part of the whole damned episode was when someone finally told Negan he talks too much. Better yet, it was Rick that did it, in one of the few smart things he's ever done.
I liked it better when Questionable Casting was called WTH Casting Agency
Takat Empress
I will imagine Negan won't be happy about Carl getting killed.
Mileena Madness
Nope.
Another part of the episode that I liked was Carl asking Negan an Armor-Piercing Question: "Is this who you wanted to be?"
I liked it better when Questionable Casting was called WTH Casting Agency
S.E.A captain
nope don't buy it for a second....
" I did the right thing, didn't I? It all worked out in the end." "In the end? Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends."
Takat Empress
How many soldiers does Negan have? The outposts were raided, but Negan still had like a freaking army.
Mileena Madness
As many as the plot needs him to.
Ceterum censeo Morbillivirum esse eradicandum.
This. A quick gander at the wiki suggests Rick and co have killed around 150 saviours, captured nearly 40 more, and Negan still has a larger army than all the militia combined, not counting all his slaves back at Sanctuary.
What you said.
This story, such as it is, has grown way out of control. Nothing is well-defined. No matter what Rick and the others do, there are always more Saviors. They're like weeds.
I liked it better when Questionable Casting was called WTH Casting Agency
Takat Empress
Saviors = HYDRA
Mileena Madness
Here is something juicy: Chandler Riggs' dad William was less than pleased with this turn of events, and he expressed himself in a now-deleted Facebook post.
edited 11th Dec '17 6:19:37 PM by BearyScary
I liked it better when Questionable Casting was called WTH Casting Agency
Well shit. I don't know how to feel about this.
On one hand, it shakes the status quo.
On the other hand, no they f'cking did not just do that. First Sophia, then Andrea, and now Coral. They already whacked Andreaand that shook things up, and they whacked Dale and Sophia. But now Carl is biting it too? What madness is this?
Well I could see this working for a couple of reasons:
- With Judith alive in this version, they can easily reset the father-son dynamic that Rick and Carl had in the comic, which the show has been sorely lacking since Season 4, the last time Rick and Carl were fighting over something. note
- I was looking at Carl walking next to Rick at the start of this episode, and they're almost the same height. It's hard to believe that only a year or two has gone by and Carl has grown this much.
- And really, Carl has felt pretty superfluous for awhile now. He's not fitting the role of Morality Pet that he did in the comic - they tried it in this episode with him guilt-tripping Rick and it didn't really stick. I'm nowhere near as invested in Carl's survival (that could be said for a bunch of characters really)
- note
Solution to this without replacing Carl's actor? Kill him off and use Judith instead. It works. Judith will/can grow to be about where Carl's age was in the comic post-All Out War, the time skip between The Whisperers and All-Out War could be larger, and the Papa Wolf role that Rick fills can shift from Carl to Judith.
Makes me anxious about where they're going with future storylines:
- Obviously Rick recovers from this somewhere down the line but... still, it's hard to believe that he does.
- The most telling scene in this show, and one of my favorites, is when Team Rick gets situated in Alexandria and Rick almost loses it after he loses track of Carl for more than a minute. He's become so fixated on keeping Carl safe that he can't even be away from him for long without panicking. It's hard to see him actually moving past this.
- But then I guess they telegraphed him having that capacity, during the scene when Negan outright said to his face he was going to kill Carl and Show!Rick decides to give him a Shut Up Hannibal, rather than beg like Comic!Rick did.
- Alright, so they killed Carl. I guess that means they're willing to really break away from the comics - so where does that leave Negan?
- Morgan built a Chekhov's Jail in Season 6 and that was a pretty good Call Forward to Negan being imprisoned during The Whisperers. So where does this leave Negan?
- There's an excess number of anti-Negan people on Team Rick who want him dead no matter the cost. I've been snickering at articles that ask the question if and who will be the one to finally kill Negan, snickering at friends who think so-and-so will kill Negan. I mean, I know what happens, even if they change it around a bit, I know what ultimately happens because they foreshadowed it with Morgan building that jail. But, now, I'm not so sure.
- Morgan built a Chekhov's Jail in Season 6 and that was a pretty good Call Forward to Negan being imprisoned during The Whisperers. So where does this leave Negan?
Given what Riggs' father said, it seems like TWD intended for Carl to stick around. This feels like a cheap tactic somehow, a way to scare the audience back into thinking Anyone Can Die.
They needed to kill either Rick, Daryl, Carol, Jesus, or Carl in order to shock me. They needed to kill one of those four, or Maggie, or Michonne, or Rosita, or Eugene or Dwight to make me feel anything. Anyone else would have lacked stopping power.
Killing Carl definitely wasn't what I expected. But it puts so much into question I'm not sure how the writers will handle it.
- They killed Sophia but they had Enid, and I thought we'd see something with Carl and Enid that mimicked Carl and Sophia in the comic. NOPE.
- They had the grenades but... the Saviors had grenade launchers, instead of just throwing grenades. The f'ck?
- They had Negan and Rick fight... and Negan hit Rick's hand. So maybe it's busted now? And Rick seems to be limping. They've had so many chances to finally cripple Rick and they've missed every single one of them.
- If Carl dies we lose the weird friendship him and Negan later have in the comic. Are we just writing that out or...?
- Maybe Gabriel will be the one talking to Negan?
- Siddiq was introduced. This wins ethnic representation brownie points and it's canon-compliant, because Siddiq, IIRC, becomes a blacksmith in the Kingdom, and later mentors Carl. But, with Carl bitten, this probably won't happen.
- What of the Whisperers and the Junk people? Carl can't chase down Alpha's daughter if he's dead.
- I guess Rosita helping Dwight up is a sign that she's able to forgive on some level, so maybe there's a chance she'll forgive Eugene and, years later, even grow to care for him again.
- Seriously. Just f'cking do it.
- Look I have platonic feelings of adoration towards Norman Reedus. Daryl went about a Heel Face Turn that was pretty touching to see, from crying in front of Beth, to embracing Carol when they reunited after Terminus, to being shaken at the sight of Negan beating Glenn to death.
- But it's time for him to go. If Negan had killed him it would have been clean and understandable and poignant enough that it wouldn't feel like a cheap death. But because you waited AMC and decided to kill Carl, a canon character, before your precious
Britishredneck fanfic character, who has killed more people in the current group than any walker... because you waited AMC, now, it's basically impossible to kill him believably. - Daryl's so popular that he outright beats Rick in a fight. Rick, a cop, just lost to Daryl, a hardened survivalist yes, but a non-canon character nonetheless
- What is it with Rick losing close-quarters combat situations anyway? If you wanted him to be the weaker party, CHOP OFF HIS DAMNED HAND. He has two here, let him use them. The only people he's beaten were Tyreese - who was pussified in this version anyway - and Pete - a doctor.
- I'm 80 percent sure pthe only reason they haven't killed Rick and replaced him with Daryl is because Kirkman wouldn't allow it
Hrh-hrm.
So, eh, not a terrible season finale. Just... they keep doing this weird flashback-in media res-closeup on the face thing that makes it hard to follow. They step away from the comics making it harder to predict where everyone is or what might happen. They're not giving us any character-centric episodes or flashbacks that make us care about the newer characters.
And they've just killed off another of our central characters - and it feels less like a Shocking Swerve and more like a desperate bid to save ratings.
edited 12th Dec '17 11:05:30 PM by Soble
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
This article sums up my feelings, but more paid professional television critic-allyish.
The showrunner seems confident they can tell the post-Negan arcs through other characters.
edited 12th Dec '17 6:12:49 PM by Soble
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Takat Empress
What about riding with Norman Reedus? :V
Mileena Madness
Soble, what do you mean by "British redneck fanfic character"? I'm a bit confused is all.
I honestly enjoy Ride with Norman Reedus.
I can say that TWD has given me plenty of great actors to love. Too bad I can't say the same about the writers. How the hell did Scott "the Gimp" Gimple's writing dip in the span of one season? How did he go from episodes like "Bury Me Here" to the hackwork of Season 8A?
I thought that Daryl, Carol, and/or Morgan would bite it before Carl. I thought he was untouchable. Shows what I know.
I liked it better when Questionable Casting was called WTH Casting Agency
Research failure on my part.
In light of the new development, I must say, this scene is... just as sad as it was back then. I just feel like posting it.
...does Rick's accent sound different in Season 2 to anyone else?
edited 19th Dec '17 12:54:32 AM by Soble
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Daryl is canon of a sort as he's the guy Dwight is based on.
And everyone hates show Dwight because he's an awful poor substitute for Daryl.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
To clarify, I said British redneck fanfic character in jest. I assumed British, but it turns out Reedus isn't hiding an accent on the show like Andrew Lincoln, Lauren Cohan, and Lennie James are.
I said fanfic character because Daryl isn't in the comics. Dwight is, but I wouldn't say Daryl is anyway based off of him. Their only similarity is having a crossbow and names that start with 'D'. The show just happened to pit them against each other.
I don't hate show Dwight. I mean, heck, he's probably a little more nuanced than comic!Dwight. But, given this show's track record, the character development he receives later will probably be ignored.
edited 19th Dec '17 2:01:50 AM by Soble
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
I see.
I had no idea that Show!Dwight was so hated.
I liked it better when Questionable Casting was called WTH Casting Agency
Takat Empress
Imagine if Dwight actually shot Eugene here.
Mileena Madness
Some thoughts to share, the bolded part was interesting:
Season 5 was kind of a let-down after the build-up to Eugene's reveal. The Beth stuff didn't really go anywhere - and Tyreese, Noah, Beth, and Samson all bit it in ways I thought were kind of dumb. Really, I'd have liked it if they used Samson as a contrast for Rick - a cop who maintained his morality and showed that peaceful negotiation could still kind of work.
Then they teased Morgan coming back to bring back interest. I liked the latter half of Season 5, what with the group readjusting to civilization.
Season 6 started off rocky - even the characters pointed out that the "plan" Rick's group came up with didn't make a whole lot of sense and wasn't properly explained. I can't think of anything good happening in Season 6 except that Carl got shot, the Anderson family deaths were brutal and unexpected (I hadn't read the comic at the time), Enid and Carl got closer, Enid's backstory was pretty chilling, and I personally didn't think the Negan introduction was bad.
Season 7 did what Season 4 did and put the characters through a new challenge, and tried to stay faithful to the comic. The first, main bit of BS I found was Rosita failing to kill Negan because of his baseball bat. Honestly, this could have made for an interesting change of pace instead of just being some physics-defying bullsh't.
If they REALLY wanted to toss the script and change things up, Rosita should have killed Negan right there. Since the show already establishes this Negan-ology thing that the comic didn't - what with Saviors calling themselves/zealously claiming that each and every single one of them "is" Negan, and we'd already been introduced to other dangerous, cunning, and similarly charismatic Saviors - as thrilling as Jeffrey Dean Morgan is in the role, not only would it save the show's budget to have him killed off, it would:
- be pretty damn shocking to comic book fans because Negan
- hell pretty much anyone watching, because Negan is billed as the Arc Villain just like Gareth and the Governor
- it wouldn't even be that much of a swerve from how Kirkman writes his antagonists; several get killed off anti-climatically
- change the status quo and really messed with the comic's plot which is exactly what they're doing by killing off Carl, at least this wouldn't have been such a frustrating gut punch like Carl mysteriously getting bitten off-camera since Rosita had already plotted to assassinate Negan anyway
- you could extenuate the conflict with the Saviors in a believable fashion. To hammer in the point Dwight was making about how "killing Negan isn't enough when guys like Simon and Gavin are still around", having Rosita kill Negan would start a power struggle within the Saviors yet still fail to actually stop the Saviors from oppressing the other communities
- remember that Regina chick we barely met in the season 8 premiere? What if "she" was Negan too? What if Eugene was Negan?
Season 8 I've been watching in bits and pieces. Only really caught the premiere, the fight Rick had with the junk people, and the midseason finale. I don't really want to admit it because this is one of the better story arcs in the comic and I like the show a bunch, but, if my own subconscious refusal to follow the show from week to week counts as proof, from what little I have seen it does seem kind of stale.
It's strange because it's a change of pace for the show - moving from "dealing with walkers" to "full-scale walkers being used as an offensive measure." I should be happy with this, but the premiere just didn't grab me. I loved Rick showing up to smack-talk Negan and then just opening fire on him. But with the way they cut those flash-forwards of Rick after the war, this season feels messy.
If could change it, I would have started the premiere off just showing a part of Rick's face, his arm, maybe his watch, and leaving us to wonder what was going on. This would be like how in Season 4 we got little clips of what was happening beforehand - those worked really well. (My favorite was the finale when we just saw Rick sitting against a car, blood all over his face. We had no idea what had happened, where Carl was, and it was terrifying because of how disturbed Rick's facial expression was.)
By showing bits - kind of like Breaking Bad - it makes me actually tense. Why is Rick in a hospital bed? Well he's the main character so obviously he survives this war, but in what state? Not only does it feel nostalgic because of how Rick started the show, but it's a little creepy. Why does this look so familiar and yet not familiar? They didn't need to show Rick walking through his house with Judith walking and talking. Just show Rick struggling to get out of bed, maybe with an odd look on his face - bewilderment, anger, fear? - and end the episode with him getting out of bed, to parts unknown. Right there, I'm hooked, I want to know why there's a pink teddy bear in the water.'
The cuts between Rick giving the speech, the future, and the staging of the attack on the Sanctuary weren't too great either. I don't know why this show has such a hard time framing things - they made the same mistake in Season 5 starting with "The Plan" Rick's group suddenly had without actually explaining any of it.
I hadn't considered Rosita killing Negan, at least not that far. That... could have worked. I don't know if she'd have survived that encounter, but I could see the other Saviors clawing for power afterward.
Negan dying > Carl dying.
edited 24th Dec '17 10:33:01 PM by Soble
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Warning Major Spoiler.
rip coral
Mileena Madness