What/s defined as an RPG game?

^ If number-crunching was what defined an RPG, grand strategy games like Civilization or Europa Universalis would be RPG's.

^ Yes, but the things for which the number crunching is used are different enough to distinguish those two with a single look.

^ Which means that your original proposition ("RPG's are about stats and number-crunching") falls on it's face.

Distinguishing RPGs from “player skill”-based games is pretty easy, but more statistical “character-skill” based games do present a bit more of a conundrum. I think the primary distinction between RPGs and strategy/tactics games like Freedom Force or X-Com is how disposable your characters are, how detailed/plot-important they are, and how customizable they are. I can only recall a few RPGs where you routinely do something like hire (the old SNES/Genesis Shadowrun games) or create (Geneforge) shallow disposable party members, but they both involve a typical deeply detailed permanent protagonist character. Still, I admit this side of the border is a tad fuzzier.

edited 8th Nov '10 5:09:30 AM by EricDVH

@ Arilou: Why?

I think he means that if number crunching=rpg, and civilization has number crunching, then civilization is an rpg. If you find that not to be the case, then the number crunching definition needs to be more specific.

^ Precisely.

In RPG you influence and develop your character through use of stats and number crunching. In Grand Turn-based strategy you influence and develop your empire/village/nation/whatevers through use of stats and number crunching. The change of object influenced by stats and numbers changes the gameplay enough to distinguish those two as different genres.

I am first to admit that my definition is far from perfect and needs work. My point is that RPG should be defined by gameplay mechanic, like pretty much every other video game genre there is, and not by the way it structures its story. And Stats and number crunching, while not perfect definition, are vital part of pretty much every RPG I know.

So, could we then claim its about the "level" of control where things go? In civilisation it all branches out in a completely different direction, which creates a completely different esthetic?

As for Mass Effect: One of the biggest improvements was that they dropped more or less useless features such as the inventory and the loot, which was useless and partially unbalanced. They also managed to fix the difficult level, which was sorely broken in higher level playtroughs of the first one. And well, I think i agree, RPG is not story, we could make THE GRAND SHOOTER which had awesome branching plot. But still... Mass Effect? Why is it an RPG? They more or less removed the bad gameplay elements that klogged it down, what we are down with are classes and branching of skills along with preferred skillset and favored weapons and favored skills. Should todays classification need a reclassification to make sense.

Image games being labeled with: "Mainly RPG and Shooter, with flavours of RTS and Choices".

Like I said, the two things an RPG does are story development and character building, with varying focus upon one or the other.

Mass Effect is (in my opinion) still an RPG because of its focus on both. You are building Shepard's world, layer by layer, yourself (to the point that Mass Effect 2 has an entirely different plot at times depending on your choices). The overall plot to stop the Reapers doesn't change, but almost everything else in that world does.

You also get to build Shepard into the type of character you want him/her to be. Not just through stats/equipment/etc, but through choices and actions. More than most protagonists, you ARE role-playing.

If you define RP Gs by story development, what do you call story-less games with stereotypical RPG mechanics?

Such as?

I'm sure there are some older RPGs with excuse plots, but I don't see why you need an example. If I took Dragon Age's combat system but removed all the plot and just plopped you in a dungeon, what kind of game would it be? Surely it would be some kind.

Or something like Maple Story, where you just kill things and level up. I think there's probably a setting of some sort, but most of the players certainly don't care.

edited 8th Nov '10 12:33:58 PM by Clarste

If you just described them as "RP Gs with excuse plots", didn't you answer your own question?

That's how I define them, but I was wondering if they had a name in your schema. I'm using this as an argument against defining them by their plot developments.

RP Gs have some level of plot development. I don't know of any that are completely plotless.

But can you conceive of one that is? Categories are not only meant to encompass things that are, but must also be flexible enough to encompass things that could be.

That seems like an unrealistic expectation of "genre", to me.

I don't know of any genre, in any medium, that encompasses flawless criteria or accounts for every variation.

All I asked if you have another name for "stat based gameplay that may or may not have plot" given that your definition of RPG doesn't include that. If I make a game where you walk through a dungeon fighting monsters until you kill a dragon at the end, and the gameplay involved leveling up and raising stats but there's no dialog whatsoever, what kind of game is that? Is that a new, innovative kind of game that we need a new name for? Clearly not, it would be considered derivative. What do you call this kind of game, if not an RPG?

edited 8th Nov '10 1:18:46 PM by Clarste

Then the plot is "you're in a dungeon fighting monsters". Which is an RPG subgenre called a "dungeon crawler".

Oh, in that sense everything has a plot, which again makes your definition completely meaningless. So basically you're admitting that RP Gs have nothing to do with story development, and are in fact a merely gameplay genre.

@ King Zeal: Some of the old games that lack the story development and character buidling elements: Early TES games, Wizardry series, Might & Magic Series, Dungeon Master series, Ishtar series, Shadow over Rivia, just off the top of my head. In fact if it is a RPG before Baldurs Gate, there is high chance that it has excuse (or at least completely non-interactive) plot and PC whose only personality are its stats and class. Many of them are also codifiers and inspirations for UI and mechanics, that are considered standard in modern RP Gs.

Clarste: Well on the other hand, we lack a "genre" which revolves around the plot.

Roguelikes pop to mind immediately, also the first one or three installments of most older franchises.

Ninja edit @del diablo: I think that might be Adventure Games, though mechanically speaking the adventure genre seems to be “A series of puzzle games linked together through a story” by most measures.

edited 8th Nov '10 1:37:41 PM by EricDVH

@Drakovic: I didn't say character "development". I said character building. Stats/equipment and such are a part of character building.

Oh, in that sense everything has a plot, which again makes your definition completely meaningless. So basically you're admitting that RP Gs have nothing to do with story development, and are in fact a merely gameplay genre.

No. Because if it was simply gameplay, then Farmville is an RPG and the line between RPG and simulation blurs. And everyone agrees that it isn't.

So I guess both definitions are flawed. Congratulations...you've proven genres have loose boundaries.

edited 8th Nov '10 1:44:03 PM by KingZeal