Dragon Ball Z Abridged

And had Goku never been sent to Earth, Raditz would have had no reason to even come here in the first place.

I did forget about Raditz tail thing. Still, that's the same kind of irrationality we we're already talking about only a different family member.

I don't think it's even a country thing so much as it is a demographic thing. This is a series, for the large part, written for children and kid like to envision themselves as taking part in the action. It's why so many shonen anime have teenagers and adolescents as their protagonists, why Harry Potter was once the most popular book series in the world, and why the super hero medium introduced more and more younger characters.

I would imagine Chi Chi probably assumed Gohan was not going to needed to fight and Goku needed someone to train with. Bonus being that Goku spends time with his son in preparation for taking out Cell.

I doubt she had any idea that he intended to have his pre teen son fight Cell. It could be assumed that she at least expected that if Gohan had to fight it would be sometime far in the future and not in a few weeks.

Well, even Goku didn't realize Gohan was going to fight Cell, so that's no shock.

A single week.

About Chi Chi: Remember, education in Japan and Korea is pretty much forced cram school. It is disgustingly antipedagogical and fails to take into consideration personhood and the fact that kids are not supposed to live to study.

Chichi happily runs with that, and that's her joke post-Dragon Ball. The half-alien kid who has show a large degree of intelligence and maturity for his age, as well as enormous fighting potential, would benefit from an education that allowed him to reach his potential in both areas. Yet his parents seem to only be able to see him for what he could be, not what he is.

If Gohan is the person in the world who can defeat Cell, Goku should coach him on that, giving him support once he realices that mid-training. Meanwhile, Chichi is right in everything but methodology and degree of enforcement, but alas, Japanese values.

Anyway, I am looking forward to seeing how they deal with Goku being so out of character when he comes out. That was a big thing originally and here it should be even more so.

This call forward.

As for Cell having Goku's face and being a destructive force in the nightmare, that might just be because like Piccolo in the nightmare, it's illogical. Note that:

• Gohan had already worked out a bunch of his aggression to his dad by that point, verbally and with fists
• With the whole "No [Piccolo] wouldn't, and he's smarter than me!", Goku talking about fighting, etc, it's starting to happen that Gohan see Goku isn't a complete idiot
• Goku had the same nightmare, for a week
• Cell is part Goku, and Goku is his prime target

etc.

And he was actually happy his mother was dead for a second...

I imagine it's at least a little he's always thought about it (with a mom like Chi-chi, and a kid as messed up as Gohan, it'd be hard not to) but when it actually happened in front of him (dream or not) the reality of the entire thing smacked him in the face.

Man, I both look forward to and dread the moment when Gohan fights Cell. So much shit is gonna bubble to the surface. It's gonna be a pretty dramatic situation all in all.

Goku may say "pretend you're fighting me" to get him to start throwing punches.

Then Android 16's last words in order to spur Cell to fight may be "This 'Cell' is composed of 10% of Son Goku's DNA. These paramaters are acceptable." in order to motivate Gohan to fight Cell as if he were fighting a version of his dad with no redeeming qualities.

That would suck.

That would be awful writing.

So, TFS will probably do it.

Unless you think Gohan physically turned into a literal missile (seems very likely given your overall argument) you miiiight want to look up what hyperbole means.

It's just false equivalence, especially with the argument that someone can use the argument to justify Gohan to justify child soldiers. Like, they literally could say the same things, but they'd be wrong. Because Gohan and child soldiers are in separate situations, so the same argument doesn't apply to both of them.

People might say crap like "it's a dangerous world" "they need to defend themselves" "if they don't, we will all suffer" about real world child soldiers, and none of it is true. The fact that those arguments actually work for DB has nothing to do with romanticizing child soldiers or twisting the narrative, because it's a fundamentally different universe where children could be as powerful as adults well before world ending threats came along.

On Goku "abandoning" Gohan because of Raditz: I'd like to point out, Goku didn't even sacrifice himself willingly in the Abridged version. Piccolo murdered him, by attacking while Goku thought he was going to give him forewarning.

The start of Goku being a bad dad is a bit iffy. Plus let's not forget about the brain damage. And the brain damage. And the brain damage.

Doesn't sound like you're a fan of some of their writing :V

Well, yeah. Not talking about their humour, but any attempts to be serious or make a cohesive story. Their joke writing and one liners are great, but nothing holds up under scrutiny.

Their own jokes undermine the attempts at serious points they try to make, most of the time. Or they try to use their jokes to make a serious point about the series, which doesn't work when their humour changes things from the original too much.

edited 1st Sep '16 5:53:01 AM by Saiga

The child soldier analogy fell apart to me when it seemed like he was implying that any work, even that aimed at children, that dared to show them in dangerous situations or fighting the villains/bad guys was advocating child soldiers, despite the fact that it's wish fulfillment and children love to project themselves just as much as adults do.

I mean, yeah, it would be horrible in real life, but we aren't talking about real life, and that's the entire point. Things that could never happen happen and people rebel in it. Forcing children to soldiers in wars isn't something most people fantasize about.

Projecting more onto it just seemed a bit sanctimonious on his and unnoun's part to me. I mean, there are certainly some troublesome betrayals of children is such positions but I still don't think this fits the bill.

edited 1st Sep '16 7:01:08 AM by LSBK

It's not about children in dangerous situations. It's about the behavior of the adults around them. Most works with kid heroes show the adults at least trying to keep them out of the action and protect them. Because that's what decent, not-terrible people do. Even if it's just a token gesture, the kids often wind up in danger either despite the best efforts of the adults or because the adults are no longer present to have a say in the matter.

Dragon Ball has the adults going out of their way to weaponize their adolescent children with a level of enthusiasm not often found among protagonists.

That's where the Child Soldier analogy comes from. It's not about Gohan fighting. It's about Goku building him up to fight Cell and then unleashing him on his foe without an ounce of remorse for the fact that he's effectively put a gun in an 11-year-old's hands and told him to go kill some enemies.

The issue isn't really Gohan. It's how Goku is portrayed as approaching the prospect of having his preteen son murder some bad guys for him, and how the narrative rewards him for this horrendous behavior.

edited 1st Sep '16 7:31:21 AM by TobiasDrake

Yeah, you keep talking about the narrative "rewarding" Goku, but besides him being right about Gohan having it in him. I'm not seeing it at all. Goku himself died, all of is friends got beaten almost half to death, Gohan turned into a sadistic asshole for a bit and it almost cost the world. I do not call these rewards.

Going by your logic, the only sensible thing would be to either keep Gohan out entirely or just have him lose, neither of which makes narrative sense or would be very satisfying.

Edit: Another place I think it falls apart is that I don't think anyone expect the child soldiers to win, or even survive. Goku didn't always intend for Gohan to have to be the one to beat Cell, and his confidence comes from knowing for a fact that Gohan could definitely win with no problem with his awakened power. He went out of his way to confirm both of these things before Gohan actually fought.

edited 1st Sep '16 7:34:08 AM by LSBK

The fact that it worked out for the best is the reward, because it means Goku was right. It means Child Soldiers are awesome and can win the battle for you, even if a bit of collateral damage happens in the meantime.

The sensible thing to do would be to have Gohan involved through no fault of Goku's. Like, he goes to the Cell Games on his own because all the adults are losing and only steps up to the plate after Goku, Piccolo, Vegeta, etc. have already been beaten and are in no position to protect him.

Not only would that eliminate the message that real heroes weaponize their children and send them off o die in battle for them, but it would also give Gohan more agency in what's supposed to be his "taking up the torch" moment. He'd be doing it by HIS choice, not because Goku threw him in the ring to die without even consulting him.

edited 1st Sep '16 7:34:58 AM by TobiasDrake

I'd like to point out that child martial artist/fighter/warrior/whatever and child soldier are different things

Seriously, soldiers and fighters/warriors/whatever don't really have much in common besides violence

edited 1st Sep '16 7:34:48 AM by SpookyMask

In order for things to get to that point Goku is going to notice Gohan is stronger than him and Cell and he's going to have to know he can't beat Cell. There is no way for Goku not to be involved.

edited 1st Sep '16 7:36:37 AM by LSBK