Dragon Ball Z Abridged

I'm no sure if he could. We really don't have much to compare that last Spirit Bomb blast to, in terms of power. It massively dwarfs previous Spirit Bombs in power, and greatly eclipses Vegeta's explosion. I figured the important part was that it was able to rip through Buu's regenerative properties, when it finally exploded. Many things are able to "damage" all forms of Buu. The sticking point is that he always was able to regenerate before.

No, they only "damaged" him because he let them. That's why bullets tore through him. When he wants to, he can tank just like everyone else. Like when he tanked Gotenks' ki barrage; each of those blasts was more than enough to kill a Pure Buu-level fighter, but Super Buu tanked dozens with no damage and remained solid. Buu is not simply someone you can tear through no matter what. That's stupid.

And we can: we know that the majority of the power came from Gohan's genki (see Goku commenting on the bomb before the humans donate), and that the boost from the humans was just the tie breaker. Meaning it's not twice as strong as Pure Buu. We also know that there are 6 billion Earthlings in the DBU, and that Gohan is certainly more powerful than the combined ki of those 6 billion by simple math. Super Buu is over twice as strong as Pure Buu; a lot more. Therefore he'd have tanked it.

The Spirit Bomb killed Pure Buu because it was physically large, allowing it to engulf his completely, and because it was stronger than him, so he couldn't tank it. If it was tried on Super Buu, it wouldn't have worked, because it would be far too weak.

edited 23rd Sep '13 11:03:45 PM by sockpuppet1

How do we know how much stronger Super Buu is (if that)? And what about Goku and Vegeta struggling against Kid Buu when Goku was confident about soloing Super Buu w/Piccolo? That always confused me when people say Super Buu was stronger.

Also, a question. Was the "The Spirit Bomb can be bounced/pushed away by those with a pure heart" thing in the original translation? Because Kid Buu was certainly pure evil.

edited 23rd Sep '13 11:06:25 PM by Enlong

This "physically large" argument is a fairly stupid one that has nothing to do with anything, to me. If it were as tall as him, it'd have done the same. If it hit any form of Buu, it wouldn't have mattered how big it was.

It's like they say: size doesn't matter, it's how you use it.

Well, it was big because it was powerful. That's how the Spirit Bomb looks, I suppose, so one as tal as him wouldn't have been as strong.

edited 23rd Sep '13 11:07:18 PM by Enlong

Goku claiming he can take on Piccolo Buu was just inserted by the anime/dub, if I'm not mistaken. It creates quite a nasty plothole since he's supposed to be weaker than even base-form Super Buu, let alone Buu with Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks absorbed.

Goku said SS Gotenks was stronger than SS 3 Goku, and Piccolo was confident that SS Gotenks could beat Fat Buu, a SS 3-level fighter. Gotenks needs two transformations on top of that to bring him to Super Buu's level.

Goku never said that, except in the Funi English dub (hopefully that bullshit will be taken out of Kai so as to avoid confusion). In the Japanese anime and all versions of the manga, Goku says again and again that he stands absolutely zero chance against Super Buu, and never contradicts it.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't feel like checking right now. It would be dumb if it was true though, since Freeza was able to hold it back (only going down because it was STRONGER than him). There really should be no difference between the Spirit Bomb and any other considerably large ki blast.

It DOES matter; if it doesn't completely engulf him, it can't take him down. To completely engulf him, it must be BIGGER than him, not just stronger. He can regenerate from anything, so you have to destroy every bit of him to take him down. A concentrated Special Beam Cannon can be ten times stronger than the Spirit Bomb that killed Pure Buu, but it's still not gonna do shit because all it does is make a small hole in him.

Power is the deciding factor, but the shape of the blast changes a lot. That's why Krillin was able to cut off Freeza's tail, and why Piccolo's SBC pierced Raditz.

If the blast was smaller than him, it would only take off part of him, and he'd regenerate with what's left and be good as new in a few seconds.

edited 23rd Sep '13 11:14:29 PM by sockpuppet1

@Wander

Rood!

The pure of heart thing comes up when Goku tells Gohan to repell the Genki Dama at Vegeta. However, this was after Kuririn locked it on to Vegeta's evil ki (as he couldn't follow Vegeta with his eyes). Goku specifically says he can bounce it back because he's not evil. It's not a special property of the Genki Dama but of the lock-on method.

The logic for SS Gotenks being stronger than SS3 Goku is fine but by no means is it the only way to interpret it. First of all, Goku only says Gotenks will be more powerful than him prior to Gotenks even being formed, he hasn't even seen the fusion. You'd have to assume fusion produces the same "boost" in all cases which I find unlikely, as a slight mistake in the dance results in a massive difference in the fusion. Personally, I don't think it's that consistent, I think it makes more sense for the strength to depend more on the two fusees, and I don't think it'd be predictable.

And Piccolo never showed confidence for Gotenks defeating Boo - he only said that base Gotenks didn't stand a chance. He never made a comparison between Fat Boo and Super Saiyan Gotenks, and his ki sensing is consistently unreliable (ie He couldn't tell the difference between base Goku and Freeza, he didn't know for sure if Majin Vegeta was stronger than Gohan, while Vegeta was able to tell at a glance from SS2 Goku that he was stronger, and Goku and Vegeta were equal, and he couldn't tell the difference between Fat Boo and Goku, despite Goku being stronger) anyway.

Mind you, I have no problem with anyone interpreting it that way, as we really don't know anything beyond SS3 Gotenks being quite a bit stronger than SS3 Goku, it's just not indisputable.

If it was true than SS3 Gotenks would be 8x stronger than Goku, because SS3 is 8x stronger than SS1, just so everyone can get an idea of how strong Gotenks could potentially be.

Some also believe that base Gotenks is stronger than SS3 Goku, which would make him 400x stronger than Goku as a Super Saiyan 3. There's even a basis for that, although it's pretty damn shaky.

@Tobias

Not even sure what point you're trying to make but you're completely wrong about your Freeza and Boo comparison. First of all, Boo destroyed the planet instantly, and the explosion scattered debris further than the explosion of Namek. And Vegeta and Goku, two beings stronger than Freeza, couldn't stop the blast. It's a more impressive feat than blowing up Namek.

And you really, really shouldn't use Abridged to support your argument. Abridged gleefully sacrifices accuracy for the sake of comedy, and it's probably a bad sign if you're using it to support a point. Vegeta's line in wrong because at that point Vegeta can create a shockwave, but he can't create a shockwave that will throw back three fighters of Vegeta, Gohan and Kuririn's calibur. That's what's impressive about what Freeza did.

If Vegeta says he's 10,000x stronger it means he's 10,000x stronger than him because he knows the battle power system and he can sense ki. Unlike in real life, numbers can be attributed to power because it's a fictional universe and that's how the fictional universe works.

edited 24th Sep '13 2:02:58 AM by Saiga

We know that energy balls can be compressed. Also, how is engulfing relevant for one form but not the other? Also, shouldn't both Buus have been more than fast enough to DOOOODGE it?

edited 24th Sep '13 5:00:32 AM by wanderlustwarrior

It's not. His assertion is that Super Buu would be able to swat away the bomb before it hit.

So, what, in the original, was the reason for Goku to hold off on using the potara after Gotenks de-fused within Super Buu? Or was even that hesitation not in the original?

I suppose I've been operating under the impression that it was absorbing Gohan that really tipped things in Buu's favor. Until Vegetto/Vegerot/however his name is spelled this week, anyway.

The order of events as I remembered it was: SS 3 Gotenks humiliates Super Buu —> Gotenks gets cocky, makes a mistake, gets absorbed by Buu along with Piccolo —> Goku comes to fight Super Buu, is totally outclassed because he's got the power of Gotenks in their SS 3 state on top of everything else, desperately searches for someone to fuse with —> Goku nearly fuses with Gohn, then Gotenks' fusion runs out within Buu —> The fusion is nearly called off —> Gohan is absorbed by Buu, and things really go to hell. —> Goku and Vegeta fuse, and utterly humiliate Super Buu B/W Gohan in base Super Saiyan state.

On the subject of using Abrodged for evidence: he wasn't, really. The line was from Abridged, but the main point was that we've had potential planet-busters as far back as the Saiyan saga.

edited 24th Sep '13 5:28:48 AM by Enlong

Your order is a little off.

SS 3 Gotenks and Buu fight, are relatively even with Gotenks having the edge -> Gotenks defuses, Buu seems to just wait for Gohan -> Gohan arrives, kicks Buu's ass. Buu explodes -> Buu approaches them later, goads Goten and Trunks into fusing, absorbs him and Piccolo -> Gohan and the new Buu fight, Buu wins -> Goku arrives, Buu's fusion wears off so he absorbs Gohan -> Vegeta arrives, he and Goku fuse into Vegito -> Vegito absolutely wrecks Buu and goads him into absorbing him so they can rescue his absorbees.

If only Gohan, Goku and Vegeta all showed up at the same time.

Who am I kidding? The post-Namek rule seems to be "each major battle may have no more than 2 tall people actively fighting.

Ah, right. Misremembered a few steps there.

No. Well kind of. My assertion is that even if it does hit, it won't do anything, because it's not STRONG enough to take out Super Buu. He'll just sit there and tank it. A generic ki blast from Gotenks is stronger than the Spirit Bomb that took out Pure Buu, and Super Buu tanked dozens of those. Engulfment still is relevant for both of them, but the engulfment only matters if the blast is actually strong enough to blow apart Buu. And the Spirit Bomb would be nowhere near enough to take out Super Buu.

Because Gohan was standing right there. HE even says "now Gohan can defeat you all on his own". Gohan. Not him.

It did, actually. He was stronger than Goku by a lot, but that's like saying Gero was impressive because he was stronger than Yamcha. Gotenks and Gohan could still beat him; by outwitting them he took them out as a threat, and by absorbing Gohan he became so strong that they needed the Potara. Not even a regular fusion of Goku and Vegeta would've been enough to topple 'Buuhan'. The only reason the heroes won is because Old Kai just randomly whipped out a new mega fusion method.

If you ever get confused again, just remember these handy quotes:

Super Buu:

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312)

Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Buu back to regular Super Buu

Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”

Goku: “Wait! Even though Buu has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

'Kid' Buu:

Chapter: 508

Context: after Buu reverts to his pure form

Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”

edited 24th Sep '13 2:11:20 PM by sockpuppet1

One thing that bugs me about their voyage into Buu...

I'm not sure I understand how going outside Buu is less safe than staying inside where he's literally the walls and floors and they're the size of ants.

Or just what Goku thinks they should do instead, if going outside is a death sentence. Stay inside Buu forever?

Make Buu weaker. That was the whole plan. That or wait for Gohan to wake up.

That quote is before they find Mr. Buu's pod, right?

I guess they knew to keep looking, then.

The inside of Boo was safer because at that point Boo wasn't aware of them.

Yeah, that's their first reaction.

Then Buu starts doing stuff.

It was kinda like when they assumed Frieza's final form was weak because it was small.

When they cut out Fat Buu, they also removed the influence of that gentler Kai who acted as sort of a limiter that imbued him with some sense of sanity and mercy.

edited 24th Sep '13 4:25:26 PM by Enlong

No, it's not like that. Because even after he blows up Earth, Goku is still confident he can beat him.

It's pretty obvious when Goku continues to beg Vegeta to fuse with him once Super Boo is back to his "base" and yet once the opportunity comes to fuse against Pure Boo he turns it down so he can fight him himself.

Actually, it looks like he refuses it more on principle than anything. And a few scenes later, he says something like "I'm not sure if we can do anything, but let's give it a shot anyway"

Battle junkies. Who can figure them out?

It should be noted that after a minute or so fighting Kid Buu, he starts to think that he probably should have taken the earrings.

edited 24th Sep '13 4:37:11 PM by Enlong

Because of Super Saiyan 3's drain, yes. He didn't realize how taxing it was on a regular body.

He outright says he can defeat Kid Boo if he can gather the energy. He says that he can't do anything to base Super Boo.

Goku also thought he'd be able to fight Kid Buu from the start, but he ran out Goku's endurance for SS 3 without breaking a... wait, does he sweat?

I mean, it's all well and good to try and gauge by what Goku says he can do, but sometimes he's overconfident. They nearly lost because he thought that Kid Buu was something they could handle without fusion.

That to one side (because I know that's a debate topic that will probably be down to subjective interpretation of Goku's knowledge), I suppose what I'm confused about is this. When the origin of Buu's fat form is explained, they say that Buu's power was reduced when he absorbed the gentle Kai. So, isn't that limiting influence still embodied in Fat Buu, who was in Super Buu but not Kid Buu? I mean, cutting away Fat Buu had a clear and dramatic effect on Buu.

edited 24th Sep '13 4:57:04 PM by Enlong

As Super Buu, he doesn't seem to retain any of the Grand Supreme Kai's benevolence he had as Fat Buu. Part of his hesitation to blow up the earth was likely less about morality and more because he had the higher priorities of eating good food and fighting strong foes, both of which he inherited from the Kais and thus lost on reversion.

Yeah, because he can regenerate. And Goku couldn't gather the energy to wipe him out in one blow.

From actually looking at the fight, we know that Boo's Kamehameha wasn't as strong as Goku's, and they fought evenly until Goku started having stamina issues.

It is never once said that they underestimate Boo's strength. Both shocks were due to something else, first that he would just casually try to blow up the planet for no reason, and secondly that Super Saiyan 3 was such a taxing form.

The grey Boo was formed out of Boo's evil, and didn't have the Kaioshin inside him. However, when he absorbed Fat Boo, he got stronger. So he isn't restricted by the Dai Kaioshin the way Fat Boo was.

edited 24th Sep '13 5:10:10 PM by Saiga