Series/Supernatural

Death isn't actually cheap though. The boys just get really good discounts. Literally nobody else.

But what would be the problem with the angels bringing back billions of humans back to life they never explained that in season 4 or 5.

Was it ever said or implied they would?

I don't see why they wouldn't especially because the angels promise a paradise for humans after the apocalypse and I don't see why Michael wouldn't if Dean asked him.

That paradise would, presumably, be heaven.

Why anyone should be opposed to dying when heaven objectively exists in this universe is a philosophical question I don't recall ever being answered. I suppose later seasons do seem to present heaven as somewhat isolationistic.

It doesn't strike me as being something the angels would waste their time with. From what we see, the angels view a select few humans as means to an end and the rest as hardly better than vermin. They'd probably just call it collateral and not bother with fixing anything.

Dean's argument is something along the lines of "heaven isn't so bad but they deserve the real deal while they can get it." I can't entirely disagree with him from what we see of it.

edited 23rd Jun '15 8:47:50 PM by Kesagake

Yeah, messily dying in an Apocalypse How scenario reeeeeally isn't pleasant for anyone involved. And it's shown afterwards, humans will go to heaven after they die without the apocalypse too. Besides, the author isn't even present. So why all the suffering and misery if it's not even necessary to begin with

@Theycallme Tomu

If that was the case then why did the angels want to kill Lucifer instead of letting Lucifer kill all humans unopposed?

@Kesagake

I could see Dean demanding for it and I could see the angels if not Michael obeying him due to Dean's importance and Michael's nature.

edited 23rd Jun '15 8:55:42 PM by warrior93

Bad writing?

The angels are soldiers to the core. Fighting God's wars is what they do. And according to their scripture, when the time comes, it's up to the angels to destroy Lucifer and create a kingdom of heaven on earth.

it's stuff.

The whole never explaining why angels couldn't perform mass resurrections was a major plothole in season 5 for me but if the plot was that when Sam get's possessed by Lucifer. So when Michael kills Sam/Lucifer it has to be done in such a way that Sam couldn't come back from the dead that would have created a better conflict for me.

edited 23rd Jun '15 9:02:17 PM by warrior93

I think the plot intention was to just say "Angels are dicks, oppose them. Period."

More like, Angels don't give a shit about us. So we won't give a shit about them. We'll fight them as long as they threaten us. We'll fight and die rather than suffer execution.

In my personal opinion making characters evil just for the sake of being evil is for most part a sign of bad writing. The Joker, supernatural monsters that eat humans without remorse, and people that rape others without remorse in fiction. Are exception to my personal rule and it doesn't seem that the angels in season 4 and 5 don't fit that criteria.

It seems as if a multitude of humans dying and staying that way is part of the angels' plan, so maybe Dean couldn't have bargained for resurrection. And even if he could, all those people that died and came back would still have likely suffered some pretty painful deaths.

Evil born of insanity isn't necessarily bad writing. It's been used before and done well before. It's just not considered very interesting to modern audiences, who demand characters who are "complex" and "sympathetic"

Hell, Hitler was an example of an evil nutjob. And Stalin.

True but what is a little pain compared to living in an world without poverty, crime, and hunger and the fact that the wait for this world wouldn't be so long.

There wasn't much in season 4 and 5 to suggests or says the angels were insane especially Michael. The case could be made for Zaxhariah being insane though.

edited 23rd Jun '15 9:26:07 PM by warrior93

There are plenty of interpretations of "paradise" that Dean and Sam would fight against. Most notedly, the question of human self-sovereignty.

I wouldn't have minded if they focused that angels plans would steal human freedom and rights but Team Free-will objections to the angels plans. Was the human casualties and not the lack of humanity future freedom.

edited 23rd Jun '15 9:30:47 PM by warrior93

yeah, I'll admit the motivations in S4 & 5 were one of the weakest parts of them. Later seasons have only exacerbated the problem. Though to be fair, Kripke's original plan didn't involve angels so they were a late game-tack on.

The angels were largely operating by a script ("We're supposed to do X, we'll go do X!") so their motivations can be boiled down to "because it says so." The key seems to be Castiel's closing line to Dean: "What would you rather have? Peace or freedom?" There is a larger point in logic and theology that a peaceful world would involve a tyranny of the nice (think church ladies with god-like powers) while a world with freedom involves wars, murders, rapes, and the rest that makes it all rather unpleasant. The lives are apparently part of the Winchesters' motivation, but avoiding that tyranny seems to be the other. Perhaps the 3rd episode title (Free to be You and Me) is a bigger clue as to the season's meaning than initially thought.

But yes, I did attempt to patch over that plot hole myself once.

For those curious, WinchesterFamilyBusiness is posting a lot of interviews from comic con and several are marked spoilery.

Normally I avoid spoilers (so I haven't watched any yet, but figured some here might want to) but the whole death thing... I may have to watch that one just to see if they even TRY making sense.

edited 14th Jul '15 10:41:08 AM by NateWinchester

So.

Adam.

Still chillin out with the two craziest Archies.

Fun stuff.

fun stuff.

Any news of a season 11 by any chance?

I haven't looked at the reports from the SDCC (I like to go into a season blind) but from some of what I've talked to other WFB writers, they have some hope it might improve.

Here's Alice's latest articles on reports and interviews at SDCC if you want to check them out yourself.

edited 13th Aug '15 4:03:58 AM by NateWinchester