A Song Of Ice And Fire

Ah, alright. I haven't read the World of Ice and Fire yet so I didn't know. I'm going to finish the two books first.

Did/does Stannis have a plan for carrying on House Baratheon's lineage? At this point, the only legitimate male-line heir would probably be one of Robert's cousins. Stannis could legitimize and even adopt Edric, if he was still around.

I would think that Shireen would be the person, and anyone that marries her becomes part of House Baratheon.

Stannis has Shireen still.

Shireen's kids would take the name Baratheon or at the very least her heir would take the name Baratheon.

As far as we know there aren't any Baratheons left.

Stannis doesn't need to have the kid in his hands to legitimize him. Stannis could pull an Aegon the Unworthy and legitimize all of Robert's kids in his will upon his death as a final fuck you to House Lannister.

edited 31st Jan '15 4:42:39 PM by MadSkillz

Oh yes, because another civil war is what the Seven Kingdoms need.

This wouldn't be another civil war. It'd just be a continuation of Stannis' war with Stannis' men.

They'd probably flock to Edric as he is both a Florent and Baratheon as well as being recognized as Robert's own son and charming too.

edited 31st Jan '15 4:49:04 PM by MadSkillz

Ah, you mean in case he dies in the course of the War of Five Kings. Okay.

The obvious problem with Shireen is that she lacks the appropriate genitals, at least according to Westerosi law outside of Dorne. Meanwhile Gendry is making swords and horseshoes at the Crossroads Inn, unaware of his parentage. And if I was Edric, I would try to live out my days as far away from the whole sordid mess as I possibly could.

At this point, a great deal of people in power would stand to gain if the whole Seven Kingdoms adopted Dornish law of absolute primogeniture instead of male-only primogeniture.

Women can inherit under Westerosi law just not under Targaryen law which funnily enough makes Stannis the heir to the Iron Throne through Targaryen and Baratheon rules.

Stannis could legitimize a Baratheon bastard and marry her to Shireen.

Edric's a little too closely related to her but at least he's nice to her.

@Ninety I don't think Daenerys, Euron or Aegon will get the throne. I pretty much expect Shireen or Jon to get it. Maybe both of them.

The War of the Roses ends when the last Lancaster heir wins the throne and marries the usurper's daughter.

edited 31st Jan '15 5:04:57 PM by MadSkillz

I think I once suggested that Stannis would have won the war by now if he married Shireen to Rickon. If it hadn't meant turning over most of the power in Westeros to the Starks that probably would have been the best option for him.

@Mad Skillz Edric and Shireen are cousins. They can marry in Westeros. IIRC Victarion thought Asha wanted to marry him at the Kingsmoot so aunts/uncles can marry their nephews/nieces. It seems that incest in Westeros only includes direct relatives.

I've seen it before, and I can't see Gendry getting the Throne. He has no training and little education. If any of Roberts bastards was going to inherit it would be Edric and that's only if Shireen and Stannis are dead.

Likewise, I can't see why Jon would be put on the IT. The North might want to and maybe the Riverlands, but no one else would accept him. Certainly not Dorne. And that's only if he can prove that R + L = J.

edited 31st Jan '15 9:06:49 PM by 940131

It's weird that Edric is such a big deal in book 2 - King's blood seems reasonably easy to come by, but Stannis gives up a decent chunk of his soul rather than let Edric get away. Maybe whatever future Mel saw for him will still come to pass.

You don't need to prove R+L=J for Jon to get the throne.

He's Robb's heir making him the KITN and he can marry Shireen as the KITN and use her claim to the IT to grab it.

@940 No that's not true. The Ironborn follow the Drowned God. Uncle and niece are too close according to the Seven which is why the High Septon didn't let Maegor marry his niece.

Also Shireen is Edric's cousin on the Baratheon side and his second cousin on the Florent side. They're closer than ordinary cousins.

Edric is the only one that's acknowledged and well-known as Robert's bastard. Stannis didn't want him for his kingsblood but to parade him around to show what a true son of Robert looks like.

edited 31st Jan '15 8:11:54 PM by MadSkillz

I don't think her hatred of the Tyrells is irrational.

To large extent it is. Since it was initially sparked by the coin Varys planted + presuambly jealousy of Margery.

Als, one other thing that I think Cersei is stupid for: Thinking she can outwit Olenna Tyrell and kill her.

I think her stupidest move was rearming the Faith. The weird part is how she didn't even hesitate and stop to think about it, despite being unjustifiably paranoid about everyone else.

I haven't read the World of Ice and Fire yet so I didn't know.

I pretty sure it was mentioned in the books too, probably DWD.

The coin thing makes it kinda rational.

Plus the Tyrells did kill Joffrey so her hatred is kinda justified for that even though she doesn't know about it.

Because Cersei is playing against noobs and she's emotionally stable at that point.

@Mad Skillz 1) Barely anyone excepts Stannis as King. I don't think marrying Shireen is going to make him King of Westeros.

2) Are you sure about that? It's seems weird that avunculate marriage wouldn't be allowed for Targaryens, seeing as they marry brother to sister. Didn't one of the Targaryens marry their uncle?

3) Even if they're cousins on both sides, I don't think that counts as incest in Westeros.

edited 31st Jan '15 9:10:13 PM by 940131

Depends on who he marries her to. If he married her to Rickon or he'd have the full force of the Tullys and Starks behind him. The Starks also have three other people they could marry to secure alliances. The only problem with this plan is that it would mean giving up most of the power in the realm to them.

edited 31st Jan '15 9:10:18 PM by Kostya

Is this a response to my post?

1) They have people they could marry off. The question is, who would agree to it?

Dorne, perhaps, if Doran Martell wasn't already set on the Targaryens. Stable power base with near-impenetrable defenses, a grudge against the Reach, a Lannister hostage to ensure the House's good behavior...

Stannis will already hold the North if he kills the Boltons; not only did he smash the Ironborn he also saved the Night's Watch. Marching down and freeing the Riverlands from the Freys could also help him, so he'll have half the strength of Westeros behind him.

@940 1) I said it gives him a claim to the Iron Throne that he wouldn't have as Jon Snow or even Jon Stark. The throne wouldn't exactly fall into his lap if he marries Shireen.

2) Yes I am sure. And the Targaryens are above Westerosi taboos. Targaryens marry uncle to niece all the time. Normal Seven-loving people though aren't into it.

3) I never said it did? Learn to not put words in my mouth.

edited 31st Jan '15 9:18:00 PM by MadSkillz

Yes. Getting everyone on board would be difficult but I think if the goal of the Baratheons and the Starks was to end the war as soon as possible they should have teamed up and proceeded to secure as many alliances as possible. The Starks alone have four people they could marry and I'm sure Stannis could find a suitor among his bannermen if they needed someone other than Shireen. The only issue is that Stannis would be giving up most of the power in the realm to the Starks.

edit: This would have only worked before the Red Wedding though.

edited 31st Jan '15 9:18:14 PM by Kostya

Stannis should've married Shireen to Rickon, shadow-baby'd Lysa and Renly and pushed Robb to exchange Jaime for Sansa (and maybe a few castles) and then marry Sansa to Loras.

Now he's got the Reach, Vale, North, Stormlands and Dragonstone with him.

edited 31st Jan '15 9:23:43 PM by MadSkillz

I would have gone:

• Rickon/Shireen to secure the Stark/Tully and Baratheon alliance.
• Arya/Trystane to get Dorne on their side.
• Robb/Margery so the Reach doesn't screw things up.
• Sansa/Robin so the Vale has a reason to actually do something.

The North, Riverlands, Stormlands, Dragonstone, Reach, Dorne, and Vale would all be united. The Lannisters would be easy to deal with after this and the Iron Islanders would have to just shut up and accept being ruled over again. Looking further ahead it would also make it far easier to help Jon deal with the White Walker problem. With half the houses in Westeros married to his siblings and no war going on defending the realm would have been far simpler.

edited 31st Jan '15 9:29:08 PM by Kostya

1) Mad, you brought it up.

2) There are some problems with that though. It would depende on Robb agreeing to give up his Kingship and swear fealty to Stannis.

3) George said feelings in the Vale were mixed so most likely it would just cause a Civil War, plus... Stannis doesn't know what Lysa and LF have been up to.

4) Mace wants the Iron Throne and Stannis' wife is a Florent. The Florents have historically been a very Anti-Tyrell House because they had closer blood ties to the Gardener Kings of the Reach. It's unlikely he'd agree to a Sansa and Loras marriage.

That's easy enough to say, but bringing it about is a lot harder.

edited 31st Jan '15 9:36:06 PM by 940131

The problem with Sansa/Robin is that Lysa wouldn't accept it because LF wouldn't accept it. The only way you can get the Vale on the Stark/ Stannis side is to kill Lysa or push the Vale lords far enough to revolt.

Also at the point that Stannis enters the stage, Sansa is held hostage so you can't really marry her off until you get her back. And if you try to marry her off to make an alliance then Tyrion/Tywin would just marry her to a Lannister to counter any marriage alliance.