Bleach

I remember that those polls have less to do with reader interests and more to do with the chief editors preferences. Either way, not a good sign.

From what I recall,weekly sales were average,but volume sales were still going rather well.

I've heard in multiple places that the Fullbringer arc flopped both critically and commercially in Japan, and the abrupt Soul-Society-to-the-rescue ending was an editorial mandate because nobody except Kubo himself liked the new characters.

I liked the new characters, mostly

In Japan, I mean.

In general, it's strongly rumored that Kubo's editors, errm, "encourage" him to use the popular established characters even when he doesn't really want to. Which would explain a lot, really.

As did I.

The problem with the Fullbringers, at least to readers I presume is that they belonged in another series.

A series called JoJo's Bizarre Adventure.

Wasn't one of the reasons the Arrancar Saga went as long as it did cause Kubo was told to give the Hollows more spotlight?

[1]

Yes Sales were lower, but not by the omg death spiral abort abort. Mostly it was people burnt out by the lack luster ending to Deicide with Aizen and really if you looked at the figures Bleach hand been in decline for a while.

The Editors apparently didn't like the arc... the Fans were more spilt. -Apparently they really liked Riruka, Yukio and... Ginjou

From who I've talked too the reason 52 did as low initially -keyword- was most people that liked the arc... Hated the fact Ginjou was a villain all along. cause they liked his dynamic with Ichigo. and hilariously enough 53 and 54 were not the massive win back the crowd volumes the editors were hoping for.

I mean when its all said and down the Fullbring arc still sold over 3 million with its volumes

Granted thats seems to be Bleach stabilized average about now. close to 3 million sales a year.

55 was ironically the last volume to be over 600k in its ending ranks -before back issues are taken into a account which can add a good 50k-200k to a volume-

Bleach has been losing sales since around volume 36 with a steady but in hindsight normal decline cause thats the issue with long runners in Manga they don't tend to have big ups and downs cause unlike say Marvel or DC comics they can't have big jump on points so you either need a big influx of new fans getting exposed to it or something that makes readers backlog everything.

The sales went back up about 48 but then returned to the steady decline.

Really the funny thing is the Blood War has been the most stable

Kubo's editors are 100% responsible for how the Fullbring arc ended.

edited 30th Jul '16 7:12:56 PM by VeryMelon

Was Ginjou turning out to be evil Kubo's or the editors decision?

Cause yeah I kinda agree that it was sad he turned out to be a villain. He seemed like such a cool guy.

I prefer the down to earth real world elements of bleach not the Soul Society themes.

I think Ginjou being the villain was the plan but he was gonna be less... over the top evil

since the whole point is Ginjou is suppose to be to Ichigo what Aizen is to Kisuke

x4 Source or GTFO.

I'm a big fan of Bleach, so while it is tempting to blame its faults on faceless, unknown editors or executives we don't have nearly enough information to say that for certain.

It's not being fair at all to make those kind of claims with what little we know. There's enough emphasis on the Gotei 13 that I don't find it too unusual for Kubo to plan that kind of climax. He already did similar in the Arrancar arc.

It does suck that we will likely never know exactly what went on due to Japanese custom, but that doesn't mean we need to start spinning our own narratives of how it happened. Speculation is one thing but the past few pages have been getting really out there.

There are multiple things in this ending, or at other points in the manga, that make me expect someone else has messed with Kubo's plans. Particularly here, where things have become more rushed and we have not been given much notice about. Several things don't seem to make sense if this was going according to keikaku.

But on the flipside, it doesn't make a great deal of sense why Kubo would be pushed into ending it so early. Despite what many on the internet claim, Bleach's sales are highly successful to a Jump title. It doesn't hold up to One Piece or (formerly) Naruto, but it is silly to compare it to those. It should be compared to the industry average (which it is outperforming) or other titles in Jump.

If the editorial want to launch a new series that badly, it would make more economic sense to axe a series who isn't selling as well as Bleach, because there is no sound reason to abandon a proven success over a complete unknown - especially if you've got some known underperformers on hand that could take the dive.

Jump don't care about story quality. They don't care about online opinions from western fans. They don't care about focus, character development, or pacing. They don't take issue with dragging things out, because dragging is there business model. If they could squeeze another volume out of Bleach, that would be more profit for them.

So, I have a hard time seeing this being entirely Kubo's plan or an editorial push. Too many things we don't know, too many things that don't add up.

There is the possibility that personal factors have lead to Kubo rushing through his original plans. Health concerns? He has had some issues recently, and being overworked was brought up. Familial responsibilities? He's married now, and from other creators we know it can be extremely difficult to balance both.

Creator burnout? He's been doing this for over a decade. He's older than when he started, and the manga industry have absolutely horrible conditions. The Japanese culture is probably responsible for why more creators don't give up, because they are expected to just suck it up. It's unhealthy. Kubo might want to just get out, or rekindle his passion by starting something new. If he really has burnt out, then there is not much he could do other than try his best to stay into it until the end. And the further that end is away the worse it will be for him AND the story. That said, I would have expected the art to decline if he were truly burnt out, or for the chapters to feel less like Kubo's style.

We just don't have enough information on this. I don't want to crucify the guy, or his editors when we have no knowledge of what went down behind the scenes.

On the topic of manga endings, I echo the sentiment that the industry doesn't lend itself to for good endings. I'd go further and say it doesn't cater to good stories, period. It's fucking horrendous for that - poor working conditions for its creators, a poor release schedule for individual chapters, encouragement to prolong the series... the weekly series feel the worst of this.

I actually can't name a single weekly title I know of that hasn't felt like their ending was rushed or unsatisfactory. The best endings I know of are still usually a weak point of the series. That's really quite depressing.

Whereas, monthly titles tend to have it significantly better. FMA and Claymore had really satisfying conclusions. FMA also had a 120 page final chapter, which was a huge help. Manga are better when read by the volume, the final chapter of FMA was like getting half a volume to finish on. I think that makes a huge difference for initial impressions than if the same content was released over several normal length chapters.

Anyway, I always take issue with calling FMA near perfect. It avoids many of the common pitfalls and lows of Shoben, and also avoids just as many of the high moments. There's certainly something that can be said for not flying too close to the sun, but it's not enough for me personally. An enjoyable read, absolutely not a benchmark for what Shonen should be.

On Zangetsu, I have a theory that this goes back to what Oetsu was saying earlier. Ichigo started out without an Asauchi, yet still manifested Zangetsu in the form used here. And Oetsu mentioned this as the reason he couldn't help without Ichigo knowing his roots. Shinigami can't create their own weapons, but Quincy can. So the original Zangetsu was, I think, a Quincy spirit weapon. So when Ichigo's current Asauchi made weapon shatters, he pulls out his spirit weapon. Either consciously (now that he knows he is a Quincy) or by instinct, or by OMZ's intervention somehow.

It's kind of funny, the last time he manifested this form of Zangetsu it was from the shattered hilt of his Zanpakuto.

edited 30th Jul '16 5:20:18 PM by Saiga

Jesus fucking Christ Saiga, was it really worth a rant?

Except, Yhwach took Ichigo's Hollow and Quincy powers away from him; he shouldn't be able to use a spirit weapon, he shouldn't be able to use a sword that Bachgetsu gave him, hell, it's doubtful that Bachgetsu even exists anymore; there should be no possible way for him to that version of Zangetsu at all.

Same with Hunter × Hunter.

Periodicity and treatment of female characters aside, I presume.

Graphically it isn't exactly incredible either.

That's kind of what Saiga does. But he's usually making valid points so it's not that bad.

As for Hunter X Hunter, what I've read has been pretty okay but nothing special, but I'm not that far in and I hear it gets much better. But is right about the graphics. They're incredibly simple.

edited 30th Jul '16 5:37:48 PM by LSBK

Heh, the Madhouse animation was a real bonus for the anime wasn't it?

Also yeah, I never want to work in fucking Japan. I mean its a serious issue, the work enviroments there.

[up]I dunno, I don't like to believe that all of the criticisms from the last few pages are inherently invalid.

Thing with Hx H is that its a good Shonen, but it has a horribly inconsistent schedule and the art suffers a lot because of it.

edited 30th Jul '16 5:41:39 PM by BlackYakuzu94

I don't see how that makes sense, because if my understanding of the schedule is right, (which it might not be) it basically boils down to "He work whenever he want."

edited 30th Jul '16 5:46:54 PM by LSBK

Its apparently health issues, something he recently clarified but I assume there's more to that.

What's the reason for the recent hiatus?

Health issues? That's interesting. Yu-Gi-Oh! had a slightly rushed ending (though not nearly so much as this) due to that too.

[1]

If you asking for a Sales source. this one is translated from the near incomprehensible Shueisa sales records

Granted I'm unclear if this is physical copies or physical and digital copies, I'd assume the latter

Initial sales figures for the Fullbring Arc -Back issues not accounted for-

vol 49; 614,822

vol 50; 567,586

vol 51; 544,741

vol 52; 486,948

vol 53; 491,289

vol 54; 528,786

With the Back issues accounted for

49; 714,990

50; 682,527

51; 630,847

52; 574,504

53; 640,938

54; 653,085

If your asking what apparently was wrong with the Fullbring arc, You're gonna get a subjective answer no matter what generally with what the person wants to be the source of the problem as the more empathized issue and who you ask.

since whats wrong with an arc or why it sells less is completely down to the fickle nature of consumers. Its no more correct the saying Everybody hated the Arc cause it wasn't the Shinigami.

edited 30th Jul '16 6:11:14 PM by FrozenWolf2

It seems the job of a successful (and hence constantly and extremely busy) mangaka is fairly taxing on people's health.