The Legend Of Zelda - General Thread

I wouldn't go quite that far, but they're up there. I peg Ages around 2 and Seasons 5.

I've heard in some circles that the puzzles in the Oracle games are actually good. As in, not "use item on obvious target."

Can anyone confirm this claim?

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Yes. Though Ages is better than Seasons.

Seasons is meant to be "harder."

What that means is "more combat-focused in a game where you have one attack."

It isn't hugely to the game's determent- Puzzles are still a factor more often than not, it's just that they tend to be somewhat simpler and only make up 60% of what you're doing in dungeons instead of 70% like in Ages.

I sure said that!

When you mean simpler, do you mean "use item on obvious target?"^note Yes, I'm going to keep using that phrase

Because that means the puzzles would be automatically bad.

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Mostly not, though it dips into some very early on, mostly in an attempt to teach the player how seeds work.

I sure said that!

Ages and Seasons had interesting puzzles in the overworld and in the dungeons. The dungeons usually took some thought as well, just like Awakening. There's really no drop in quality from Awakening to the Oracles, which is amazing seeing how they were outsourced.

Thank you for making my point but in a way that was much more intelligent and concise.

I sure said that!

It completely baffles me why even though the 3D games have another dimension, the 2D games consistently have more thought required for their puzzles.

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Just Ocarina (not the second quest though) and Wind Waker. Majora was trickier overall. Twilight Princess was hit and miss on the difficulty, but the puzzles were creative enough that they remained interesting throughout. Skyward Sword was about the application of the motion controls, particularly the sword and the Beetle. The Whip and Gust Bellows were underwhelming sure, but the Timeshift Stones more than made up for them.

I mean, I don't think anybody else shares your perspective on the 3D games, so.

Okay, so exactly what puzzles weren't "use item on obvious target" in those two games?

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Which two games do you mean? Well, I guess I'll give you an off-the-top-of-my-head example from all four games:

• OOT: In the Deku tree, the move blocks so they block some blades and therefore you can proceed safely.
• TP: Blocks on ice that you have to move the right way so they push down all the switches at once, and stay pushed.
• SS: Move a time shift stone through a maze, with different passage becoming available in the past and future.
• MM: That room in The Great Bay Temple where you have to change the current direction, and freeze and melt grates in order to travel across those big scale things.

To be clear, each of those example were chosen purely because they were the first one that came to my mind.

edited 26th Jun '16 5:30:50 PM by Gilphon

I'll go over Twilight Princess since that's still fresh in my memory. I'm talking about puzzles, which don't have to include items.

• Forrest Temple: This one is fairly simple and more mazelike, which is fine since it's the first dungeon. And still big for one. The Gale Boomerang takes a backseat to finding the monkeys.

• Goron Mines: Yeah, this one is pretty much use the Iron Boots to move around and shoot stuff with the Bow. Walking on the wall and roof is interesting though.

• Lakebed Temple: The Clawshot takes a backseat to manipulating the water flow and height, which is a step up in difficulty and complexity compared to the previous dungeons. The Clawshot is where observational skills are put to the test, and it's where you first need to figure out how to use the bomb arrows.

• Arbiter's Grounds: Another dungeon where your observational skills are the important part, as the tricky part is figuring out where you're supposed to go and what you're supposed to hit or more to progress. The Spinner is more of a timing challenge, plus it has the cool factor.

• Snowpeak Ruins: Ice and block puzzles are the order of the day. The Ball and Chain is usually simple, but it does have some neat tricks such as using in order to swing a chandelier

• Temple of Time: Weights and balance are the key here. You need to know when a switch should pushed or how to properly use a scale. Once you get the Dominion Rod it's all about experimenting with what you can do. What can you destroy, how can you move these statues in the right way, etc. The difficulty probably depends on the person, but it's very interesting.

• City in the Sky: Observational skills rule the day again as you move everywhere with the Clawshots. Figure out where you can go, and often you need to do it fast. There's also a lot of positioning you need to do once you have the Dual Clawshots, forcing you to have a lot of situational awareness both of what's in the room and what's above/below you. Very tricky in practice, though once again the difficulty varies from person to person.

The last two dungeons are mostly action oriented.

Like I said, the dungeons, puzzles, and items are not necessarily difficult, but they are interesting. Thinking back though, most of the difficult puzzles aren't solved with items aside from the Dominion Rod and the Clawshots. The rest are more keys or tools. You can decide whether that's good or not. Observational skills do seem to be a constant, whether you need to see the pattern on the floor for the Boomerang, look for that switch to place a heavy object on, or just pay attention to where your options could be in the more mazelike dungeons.

You forgot the Palace of Twilight.

Heart of Stone

That place didn't even have a dungeon item.

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Do "observational skills" ever amount to anything other than "find target hidden somewhat from view?" As Egoraptor said, that really isn't much of a puzzle.

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If you're going to arbitrarily narrow the definition of puzzle, then it's easy to dismiss whatever you don't like. Find the hidden answer is a staple of puzzles and Zelda in general.

The point is moot, though- plenty of puzzles cited above don't far into that category.

Because a lot of the time the targets aren't hidden; they're quite obvious instead.

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I've heard opinions that they like it simple, puzzles and combat, shoot/hit the obvious weak point.

Something like you want more advanced combat, go play Dark Souls.

We're talking about puzzles, not combat.

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I think it's pretty much a matter of balance in complexity. The 2D games were always relatively simple to control, the top-down perspective was very simple in that it allowed you to see everything around you at the same time...

When Zelda, or even videogames in general, jumped to 3D, the added complexity of the third dimension and the need to wield a camera behind you in order to see what's happening, meant that other complexity had to be dialed down. It's the same reason why, for the longest time, 3D platformers ended up more about exploring relatively small, self-contained areas and collecting items than actual platforming. Enemies in particularly had to be made simpler because you weren't guaranteed to even be able to see them before they attack you and the added dimension made it more difficult to jump on them (see also how Mario ended up having health rather than just a big or small state).

Puzzles are a lot harder to analyze because the very concept is more complex and nebulous, but the same basic principle applies: The interface got more complex, so the actions you're expected to do with it went down.

Guys, I'm having trouble with a mission in Hyrule Warriors Legends. It's the one that unlocked Zelda's Lv 2 Baton in the Wii U version, I need an A Rank to proceed to Link's Lv 1 Great Fairy mission. What's the easiest way of going about that mission?

I haven't played the Wii version but here's what I've learned about A ranking the basic "defeat enemy army and conquer keeps" missions in Legends:

• Always make sure you have 1,200 kills and are under 4,000 points of damage before completing it.
• Don't worry too much about time. I've been told that 15:00 is the A rank limit but I've gotten A rank on missions with upwards of 17-18 minutes on the clock.
• Concentrate on enemy leaders. Dinolfos, Aerolfos, Stalfos, etc. plus named characters are priority targets. Enemy mooks are basically garbage and will never influence the battle in any appreciable way, but these guys take your keeps and kill your important allies - who, themselves, can cleave through enemy mooks all day but stumble and die helplessly over even the weakest enemy leaders.
• There is a block button. Use it. It's quite handy.
• Keeps are amazing for your killcount. Maybe don't kill the Keep Leader when he pops up. You can farm a LOT of enemies in an enemy keep.
• Once you hit 1,200 kills, make a beeline for the quest goal. So long as you're above 1,200 kills, below 4,000 damage, and are under whatever the correct time actually is, nothing else matters. Keeps only matter if you're looking for hidden treasure.

For Zelda, specifically, learn her combos and avoid the ones where she hovers in the air and stabs downwards. It locks her in position and makes her really vulnerable to enemy attack. It is a shitty move that will get you killed or, at least, get you hit enough that you fail the 4,000- damage portion of the A rank.

Try and keep her Light bulbs lit. Hitting Strong attack without a combo will restock them. They turn her shitty ending stab combos into badass light explosion combos. Every light explosion finisher consumes a bulb, so learn how to get away from enemies long enough to restock.

edited 27th Jun '16 8:33:59 AM by TobiasDrake

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