Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard proposal thread! This is the thread where new Magnificent Bastard examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential mitigating features will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the MB subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite MB" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from other parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for MB equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, their goals and methodology, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some characters, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
How are they Magnificent?
This is the point where you highlight the character's brilliance. How to they convey their intelligence and charm to the audience? What makes them stand out among the crowd? What are their goals and how do they go about accomplishing them? This part welcomes a lot of creative thinking — not everyone has to be a Machiavellian Diabolical Mastermind to be worth considering here! This is also the time to showcase how the character can think on their feet if it's necessary.
How are they a Bastard? How are they not too bad?
What kinds of moral lines is this character willing to cross for the sake of their goal? Are they willing to let innocents die? Start wars? Commit crimes? The character has to show some kind of unscrupulousness in order to count as a "Bastard". Notably, this character does not necessarily have to be the villain, and an Anti-Hero can cross the line if they're immoral enough, but they have to be immoral somehow.
This is also the section where you then state your case for why they're not too bad. Perhaps their good intentions help mitigate their crimes. Perhaps others are shown to be much worse than them. Perhaps they're prone to Pet the Dog moments or are even fighting on behalf of loved ones. Whatever the case, there are certain lines that an MB can't cross, but as long as their villainy is reasonable for their goal, they can be considered.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:40:56 AM
The wifi here sucks
- Puppet History: The Genie is a mysterious figure who gave the Professor the ability to time travel. Realizing that the Professor's travels are inadvertently turning objects into puppets, the Genie began pursuing him through time in order to fix his mistake. When Ryan makes a deal with Satan to win an episode of Puppet History, the Genie uses the opportunity to have the Professor possessed and forces him to give up his time travel abilities before banishing him to the Cretaceous Period. All this while simultaneously luring all the puppets to a party where he removes their sentience, leaving the scene victorious. Returning later, the Genie willingly grants Ryan’s wish to return the Professor before parting with him on good terms
Not the Eye
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Arkus. Missed him last time
Man in the Yellow Hat
to Strater.
- A Game Of Turnabouts (link): Arkus Strater is the host of the murder mystery party who has a hidden agenda for his actions. Seeking justice for his murdered daughter Isla, Arkus sets up the party with the exact same circumstances as her murder and invites the four possible suspects to the party, using blackmail he has on all of them to force them to participate. Knowing of Phoenix Wright's propensity to solve complex murder cases, Arkus invites him and his fellow lawyer Athena Cykes to the party so that they can find the true culprit. Though dying in the process, Athena manages to find out who murdered Isla through his murder trial, accomplishing his mission from beyond the grave.
It has come to my attention that Vengeful Bale reserved discussion for Megamind Rules! for exactly a month ago, and yet they never came to start discussion. Did they died of cringe trying to watch it? (No but for real what happened?)
The wifi here sucks
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
They may just be busy right now or something. The discussion date is today but sometimes it takes a bit longer to get things in order.
Since Takechi was approved, here is a possible write-up
- Like a Dragon: Ishin!: Takechi Hanpeita is the ambitious leader of the Tosa Loyalist Party, and adoptive brother of Sakamoto Ryoma. Originally planning to remove the class system in Tosa for the better, even having his adoptive father Yoshida Toyo assassinated, he eventually evolves his plan to reform Japan as a whole after teaming up with Tosa daimyo Yamauchi Yodo. He fakes his death and takes Sakamoto Ryoma's name in order to conspire with the leaders of the Satsuma Domain and the Choshu Loyalists so that he can use them to start an anti-Bakufu civil war. When Ryoma interrupts his plan by having the shogun initiate the Great Restoration, Takechi orders the Shinsengumi to light the city of Kyo ablaze to provide a distraction while his fellow Tosa loyalist Okada Izo murders the Emperor and frames Shinsengumi chief Kondo Isami for it, in hopes of it igniting a war between the Bakufu and the Imperial Court. When Ryoma and his allies attempt to hold a meeting between the Satcho Alliance and "Sakamoto Ryoma" in order to bait him out, Takechi manages to see through this plan. Challenging him to one final duel in Tosa, Takechi is eventually defeated by Ryoma, who decides to spare him, which in turn leads to Takechi pulling a Heel–Face Turn, intending to fix his mistakes. After Yodo arrives and attempts to kill Ryoma whilst revealing his ultimate plans, Ryoma murders him and Takechi takes his name, working from behind the scenes to assist in Japan's rebirth.
Like with Kondo, who I did beforehand, please let me know if this is too long or if I made any other mistakes.
It's my fault, I got premission from Vengeful Bale to do the EP but I became too interested in another show thag I forgot about it. Don't worry, I'll finish it in at the minimum two days.
Looks good to me.
Unofficial co-Wiki Curator for Magnificent Bastard
Good to know
(x5) it wasn't for yesterday, it was for March 15, a month ago, big difference
Thoughts on this MCU Kingpin quote?:
Wilson Fisk: Something like that, yeah.
Frank Castle: So if you can do that, if you can get me out, why not just do it yourself?
Wilson Fisk: Because I play the long game, Mr. Castle. You see, when I'm finally let out of this cage, it won't be to wage war. It will be to win one.
I like that quote.
Kingpin quote
Dagded Dujardin
Yeah, that's the reason I might have to rewatch (I will suffer through it) just in case
"Bingo! If two species hate each other, they will wipe each other out on their own."
Man in the Yellow Hat
Alright, writeup time
Murder Drones: Doll is a Russian-speaking worker drone and one of the most intelligent enemies faced by the main cast. Desiring to avenge the deaths of her parents at V's hands, Doll uses the Absolute Solver powers she inherited to kill of all possible prom queen candidates, planning to both feast on their oil to keep the Solver at bay and lure V to prom to kill her. Barely foiled by Uzi, N, and V, Doll strikes a deal with Tessa and J to get them the Keybug and go to the Cabin Fever Labs so as to cure the Solver, before betraying them and managing to escape when it becomes obvious Tessa wants to kill her. Doll then plays dead to get Tessa and V attacked by Sentinels, seemingly vanquishing the later. Only stopped by Tessa revealing herself to be the Absolute Solver and attacking her, Doll uses the last of her strength to get to Uzi and tell her to keep fighting.
Edited by Purgatoryisof2 on Apr 16th 2024 at 5:20:39 AM
He/Him
Thank you Rav for giving this to me!
What's The Work?
Dune (2021) and Dune: Part Two are Denis Villeneuve masterful adaptations of Frank Herberts Dune. In it we have Paul Atreides find that he is the result of thousands of years of breeding to make a Chosen One. Only he finds that it's not all that it's cracked up to be...
What does he do?:
In the first film, Paul is the son of Duke Leto Atreides, the leader of a planetary fife called Caladan. His father accepts the fife of Arrakis the most important planet in the imperium. It is the source of Spice which allows for safe space travel in light speeds. He frequently has dreams of the future. While on Arrakis, spice triggers his future visions like never before. He grows accustomed to the desert, while a plot breeds in the background to overthrow his family. One night the Harrokens (the previous rulers of Arrakis and Atreides Arch-Enemy), along with the emperors forces, strike wiping out his house. He and his mother Jessica manage to flee into the dessert while he sees terrifying visions of a future holy war done under his name which he is desperate to avoid. Eventually they make contact with the Fremen, the indigenous people of Arrakis. While there he manages to meet a girl he has been dreaming about Chani, while also getting involved in a death match with a local fremen who doesn't like how quickly he was accepted. Paul reluctantly kills him and thus starts his journey to becoming the Kwisatz Haderach.
Later while in the Fremen Stronghold, some revere him while other shun him(Jessica's order has spread tales of a Lisan Al Gaib note ) and many Fremen see the signs in him. While at first he tries to take advantage of that, he later decides it's not worth it and just decides to integrate himself with the people while also forming a romance with Chani. However his skills and his mother's sinister machinations make many of the Fremen start to more fervently revere him anyway. Over the course of the film he fights with them against the Harkonnens utilizing his learned skills and precognition and his legend continues to grow until many see him as a true leader. One day he does not see the signs and his settlement is massacred by the Harkonnens. Deciding that he needs true foresight to truly beat them, he decides to take the water of life, something that is otherwise lethal for men. Chani is furious but she manages to awaken him from his coma. However things seem to be permanently strained between them. He manages to use his true precognition powers and flowery speeches to rally the entirety of the Fremen to his side, and then he directly Challenges the emperor.
The emperor comes down to Arrakis, furious that Paul is alive while taking it out on the Harkonnens. Using his family atomics, the true foresight, the fremen, and the worms they ride, he manages to completely obliterate the combined forces of the Emperor and Harkonnens while taking revenge on Vladimir Harkonnen there leader. He manages to depose the Emperor and demands his daughter as his wife to secure the throne. This seems to be the final nail in the coffin between him and Chani and she leaves him disgust. In the process the rest of the great houses come to Arrakis and refuse to honor his ascendancy. With one chilling phrase he says to the fremen "Lead them to paradise". As the fremen rally to begin the holy war, Chani calls sandworm to go to parts unknown...
Is he Magnificent?:
Undoubtedly. Paul is resourceful and has lots of bravery. Fighting out there with the Fremen. He has a lot of humanity being disgusted with Bene Gesserit (the order that Jessica belongs to) have done to the Fremen, while his romance with Chani greatly humanizes human. Still he makes a fine leader and when pushed pass temptation he takes a decidedly sinister turn. He gives a great speech while also using his powers to rally the entire Fremen to his cause then using brilliant battle tactics and charisma completely obliterates the emperor and his forces.
'Is he a Bastard? Too Much?:
At first no... but once he takes the Water of Life, he's happy to use a native myth (spread by his ancestors) to his whim for revenge and then starts a Holy War which will cause untold death and destruction in his name. And there is something to be said about whether or not he's framed as too bad (I will get to that in the next section). At the same time he only does that when pushed to the brink and does love both Chani, his family, and his household servants.
Mitigating Factors?
The book and especially the films are not shy about the dangers of Messianic Figures. It definitely goes over the darker aspects of Pauls ascendancy from the holy war that will bring death and destruction in his name, and it definitely highlights how sinister his turn is. It's definitely framed as not a good thing that an outsider is taking over a native culture and whipping up religious fervor. Him alienating Chani is a huge symbol of what he has lost and sacrificed and she repeatedly calls out the Fremen for falling prey to the prophecy. So it's not quite a clear cut case of Magnificent. At the same time there's enough awe with his precognition and rhetorical and planning skills, and the story is fantastic enough (precognitive powers, space travel, giant worms, compelling voices, etc.) that I think he just pushes over into Magnificent and not "too loathsome."
Verdict? Leaning .
Paul
He is shady enough
Unofficial co-Wiki Curator for Magnificent Bastard
RIP Toriyama
I'm a yes to Paul, great work!
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
for Paul.
- Good Deeds Gon Unpunished's How The Paladin Got His Scar: The unnamed hobgoblin cleric is, in spite of his seeming toadyism, a crafty goblinoid who strives for peace amongst his people. Intentionally hunching himself over three years to make himself look less threatening, the cleric manages to talk down the war-hungry general from attacking O-Chul and his cohorts to grant them an audience with the Supreme Leader by careful use of his words. Later on, after Gin-Jun has been stopped from raiding the outpost, the cleric enacts his plan to take over by poisoning the Supreme Leader and every other hobgoblin present. Framing O-Chul and his allies for the assassination so that his takeover can go smoothly, the cleric is able to lead the hobgoblins into an age of peace, massively expanding their numbers in the process.
Yes to Paul.
Dagded Dujardin
to Paul
I'd say Let's Play.
Will ask if anyone else has a vote for Arkus Strater
.